Jump Start- ABU Name Tapes, AF Occupational Badges, CAP Specialty Track Badges,

[Eclipse]

I totally get that. I'm just saying "Ultramarine Blue" is a more specific color to match than "Dark Blue" is when your using an outside vendor for occupational badges. You obviously want all the colors to match up.

On paper, yes.  In real life, it'll never happen.

The stuff VG is producing now doesn't match as it is - color and material variations will alwyas mean stuff isn't exactly right.

A/C wings, as an example, aren't even close to the tapes they are making these days (not to mention they are cut and sewn
incorrectly and have to be unstititched and redone).

At the end of the day, just leave the military stuff for a military uniform, CAP stuff on CAP uniforms, and move on.

[JeffDG]

Here's my thoughts on going to another vendor to get the CIVIL AIR PATROL nametapes.

First:  If I go to Bob's Nametapes to get a CIVIL AIR PATROL nametape, neither I, nor Bob's Nametapes are bound by CAP's agreement with Vanguard.  We're not parties to the agreement and as such, the terms of the agreement are binding upon neither of us.

If Bob's Nametapes advertises that they can do CIVIL AIR PATROL nametapes, then CAP can make a claim against Bob's for using the CIVIL AIR PATROL name (effectively a trademark, although it's part of a private act [36 USC 40306] and not de jure a trademark) without authorization.

However, if I go to Bob's and type in ask them to make a CIVIL AIR PATROL nametape, that is the member directing the use of the name, not the vendor using the name in marketing or advertising.

[Eclipse]

However, if I go to Bob's and type in ask them to make a CIVIL AIR PATROL nametape, that is the member directing the use of the name, not the vendor using the name in marketing or advertising.

An excellent point, and one which would likely get the whole C&D nonsense closed once and for all, however no one
in the position to help would want to bother because it's not worth their time. 

It's no different then if I were to buy an embroidery machine and start producing tapes and insignia at cost for
my squadron.  As a member I have the right to non-commercial use of the insignia and name, etc., for official use.

As has been pointed out on a number of occasions Spur was a CAP >sponsor<, and as a "thank you" they got on the blacklist.

[Ned]

First:  If I go to Bob's Nametapes to get a CIVIL AIR PATROL nametape, neither I, nor Bob's Nametapes are bound by CAP's agreement with Vanguard.  We're not parties to the agreement and as such, the terms of the agreement are binding upon neither of us.

True enough, as far as Vanguard goes.  But of course Federal law is kinda binding on both of you.

If Bob's Nametapes advertises that they can do CIVIL AIR PATROL nametapes, then CAP can make a claim against Bob's for using the CIVIL AIR PATROL name (effectively a trademark, although it's part of a private act [36 USC 40306] and not de jure a trademark) without authorization.

If by "make a claim," you mean an injunction and a lawsuit for damages and to disgorge unlawful profits, I can only agree.  I suspect Bob's Nametapes may find the prospect of audits, depositions, and assorted litigation stuff somewhat intimidating.  And frankly, they should.  Basing your business model on pirating the intellectual property of a charitable non-profit corporation should be clearly the wrong choice for any honest business person.

However, if I go to Bob's and type in ask them to make a CIVIL AIR PATROL nametape, that is the member directing the use of the name, not the vendor using the name in marketing or advertising.

I gotta disagree with you on this part.  Members do not have any rights in the corporate name or logos.  Only the corporation itself was granted that right by Federal law.  You or I simply have no authority to permit or authorize a third party to make a product bearing the protected corporate name or logos.  It doesn't matter whether it is for resale or personal use.  There is no "private use" exception in the Federal law that would allow this.

Now, as a practical matter, I certainly grant you that CAP is unlikely to take any action or litigate matters involving "one-offs."  It is not worth the time and effort, and frankly that kind of thing is not a real problem for the corporation to begin with.

But Bob the Businessman undoubtedly knows a thing or two about the marketplace he operates in, and is unlikely to risk problems by making profits out of someone else's IP.

Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer

[JeffDG]

But Bob the Businessman undoubtedly knows a thing or two about the marketplace he operates in, and is unlikely to risk problems by making profits out of someone else's IP.

OK, my point is, Bob the Businessman may have no clue that it's someone else's IP.

I can go on Amazon and order from any number of vendors where they simply have a box saying "Type what you want on the tape here..."  Odds are, they have no clue who Civil Air Patrol is, and even if they do a Trademark search, they would find no trademark in the name.  CAP's rights to the name is a de facto trademark, but it's not a de jure trademark (in that CAPs rights are the equivalent of a trademark, but it's not actually a mark under the Lanham Act, so Bob may even do reasonable due diligence and still not know of any infringement.

[NIN]

OK, my point is, Bob the Businessman may have no clue that it's someone else's IP.

I can go on Amazon and order from any number of vendors where they simply have a box saying "Type what you want on the tape here..."  Odds are, they have no clue who Civil Air Patrol is, and even if they do a Trademark search, they would find no trademark in the name.  CAP's rights to the name is a de facto trademark, but it's not a de jure trademark (in that CAPs rights are the equivalent of a trademark, but it's not actually a mark under the Lanham Act, so Bob may even do reasonable due diligence and still not know of any infringement.

There are many Bob The Businessmen doing this kind of stuff (lets say its "vinyl cut decals" or custom printed decals) that specifically say "And we're not going to do copyrighted or trademarked items".  All it takes is one letter from Warner Brothers or Bill Watterson's lawyer due to the awesome looking "Tasmanian Devil Rear Window Stickers" or "Calvin peeing on [insert something here]" to make Bob The Businessman realize he better head that off at the pass.

[USAFRiggerGuy]

Here is a site that will do USAF Occupational Badges in Navy (Dark Blue) and Silver if anyone is interested.  I got my UM blue ones done through these guys and they look great!

https://www.nametags4u.com

[Luis R. Ramos]

Nametags4u has a disclaimer that says they will NOT make any tapes or badges that have CAP seals or logos.

The disclaimer continues with the message they will make any Air Force badge.

[USAFRiggerGuy]

Nametags4u has a disclaimer that says they will NOT make any tapes or badges that have CAP seals or logos.

The disclaimer continues with the message they will make any Air Force badge.

Exactly, I got Navy Blue badges from then that are USAF occupational badges.

[Eclipse]

Nametags4u has a disclaimer that says they will NOT make any tapes or badges that have CAP seals or logos.

The disclaimer continues with the message they will make any Air Force badge.

Which is cricket, because CAP has a legitimate claim to those based on public law.

Whether or not they have a claim to the standard English language words "civil","air", and "patrol" is another matter,
and one which would probably have to be decided in a court of law - expensive for both sides considering the low ROI.

Or it could just Hakuna matata and worry about things that actually matter.

[KASSRCrashResearch]

Nametags4u has a disclaimer that says they will NOT make any tapes or badges that have CAP seals or logos.

The disclaimer continues with the message they will make any Air Force badge.

So....Vanguard for the tape that says "CIVIL AIR PATROL" and the CAP badges and go somewhere else for the one with my last name (since I've ordered one for my work uniform from them that is identical to the CAP requirements) and my enlisted medical badge (in the event that I lose my mind and want another thing to sew on my uniform).

Then again, one could easily go to a company based in some third world ****hole and get them made.  Good luck Vanguard in collecting your money from a country whose legal system is at the intersection of Corruption Boulevard and Nonexistent Avenue*.  I believe that is what one calls a 'Pyrrhic victory'

*-Looking at you most of Africa, parts of Asia as well bits of Central and South America.

[Ned]

.  Good luck Vanguard in collecting your money from a country whose legal system is at the intersection of Corruption Boulevard and Nonexistent Avenue*.

I can see that you are a relatively new participant here on CT, and possibly even new to CAP itself.  Forgive my presumption, but based on this comment I think it is possible that you may not understand why CAP selected VG as our exclusive supplier of CAP-specific uniforms and insignia.

By way of background, for many, many years CAP arranged for the production and sale of our own insignia through the Bookstore (later CAPMart).  Much of which we bought from Vanguard, BTW.  But despite many attempts, restarts, and reconfiguration, CAP was not able to avoid losing many thousands of dollars in the process.  Which had to be made up by dues money.  Our leaders decided that running a warehouse and buying and selling insignia was not a core competency of the corporation and outsourced that function - after a competitive bidding process - to VG, one of the most experienced uniform and insignia companies in the world.  The leadership took a money losing function and stopped the hemorrhaging of our dues money.

Wait, it gets better.  As a condition of the exclusive marketing arrangement, VG also pays a licensing fee back to CAP that amounts to thousands of dollars yearly. 

Also as a condition of the arrangement, VG is committed to sell the complete line of CAP uniforms and insignia, including some insignia that is very rarely used.  The usual example we discuss here is something like a Master Character Development Instructor badge (SKU: CAP0763B - $9.50) which is a fairly complex insignia that has to be cast and have multiple colors of enamel applied.

I agree it would be fairly easy for essentially anyone with an embroidery machine to make and sell CAP tapes (SKU: CAP0599K, $1.85) for a price less than VG.  But the problem with letting anyone skim the cream off the high-volume, low cost insignia is that the other, less often worn insignia, would then become "orphaned" and prohibitively expensive.  Not even an off shore company could make and sell master CDI badges for a reasonable price when they find out that they might sell 3 dozen in a good year.  Larger margins on high-volume things like CAP tapes and wing patches literally underwrites the expense of the "low-density" insignia like WWII service ribbons, Falcon Awards, and Master CDI badges.

The other problem with allowing anyone to produce our insignia, is that it would inevitably become a "race to the bottom" in terms of quality as price conscious parents and young cadets would tend to purchase the cheapest possible insignia without an appreciation of minimum standards of quality for things worn on a uniform.  Moms and Dads just wouldn't know any better, and it is the cadet who would have to "pay."

The VG arrangement was -- and remains -- a substantial "win-win" for the membership.  Prices remain about what they were when we ran the business and we have saved tens of thousands of dollars in dues money that we would otherwise have lost.  Plus VG has returned thousands of dollars to CAP which has been used for everything from maintenance of the Blue Beret and Hawk facilities to flight scholarships for cadets.

VG contract is up for renewal periodically, and we track things like customer experiences.  VG values our business and works hard to keep the members as happy as any retail business can.

I'm as price conscious as anyone.  If I can buy something cheaper than at VG, I do so with little hesitation.  I don't buy AF-style uniforms from them, for instance, because I can purchase cheaper on base.  Not all members have convenient base access, of course, so VG remains a vital alternative that allows all members to purchase all uniforms and insignia with confidence that they will meet appropriate standards.


Ned Lee

[Eclipse]

VG also pays a licensing fee back to CAP that amounts to thousands of dollars yearly. 

Which is what give a lot of us heartburn.  If there is money to return, the prices could be lowered.

because I can purchase cheaper on base.  Not all members have convenient base access,

All members, by the verbiage of the AFIs, are supposed to, but that is something CAP has allowed to dry up and not pursue.

[Spaceman3750]

I recently spent $85.47 (plus shipping) for two uniforms - G/W and custom polo. I do this about once every 3-4 years. I probably won't buy again until it's time to buy a couple new sets of BDUs - a purchase that will probably run me $20 in tapes and insignia from VG, and $120 or so for two sets of Propper BBDUs from a different source.

It's not like we're spending $300/yr on uniforms here. You buy a uniform, and yes, you might spend anywhere from $50-100 on it. But then you wear it for three years and don't think about it again until it's time to replace. In the grand scheme I really don't think you're going to be able to give a significant enough discount on every single item that it makes it worth the loss of thousands per year to various programs.

[NIN]

because I can purchase cheaper on base.  Not all members have convenient base access,

All members, by the verbiage of the AFIs, are supposed to, but that is something CAP has allowed to dry up and not pursue.

Yeah,  geez. Thanks BRAC & al Qaeda



Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[Eclipse]

because I can purchase cheaper on base.  Not all members have convenient base access,

All members, by the verbiage of the AFIs, are supposed to, but that is something CAP has allowed to dry up and not pursue.

Yeah,  geez. Thanks BRAC & al Qaeda

I seriously doubt either of the above had much to do with CAP members being able to shop at
AAFES, considering we did so for years at the height of several wars.

[KASSRCrashResearch]

it is possible that you may not understand why CAP selected VG as our exclusive supplier of CAP-specific uniforms and insignia

I understand.  I have no real problem with Vanguard other than their customer service sucking more than a Shop-Vac a considerable amount of the time (based on my experience with them during my time in the AF).

Which is what give a lot of us heartburn.  If there is money to return, the prices could be lowered.

^This.  No offense but if someone's getting a tax write-off for MY money (which is what that is for Vanguard since CAP is a nonprofit), I prefer it to be me.

[Airborne]

Another uniform change,  ABU now,  what is next in 4 years,  511 ??   Bottom Line,   Uniform change has Vangards name all over it.   One thing going to ABUs,  OK, Fine,  but we now can not even use our name tags, rank,  badges,    CRAZY,   As volunteers,  can only afford so much,  There is NO REASON, why we can not use our current name tags , etc,  Save some money,    Wish I had a multi color sharpie.      Crazy to get rid of all our tags, rank, etc.     Talk about insult to injury.   Someone is NOT thinking about the Volunteers wallet.  For sure.      Wear the blue BBDU,  until it rots off my body,   SMILE

[Storm Chaser]

I've had good experience with Vanguard's customer service. And while most of their items are overpriced (yes, I understand their obligation to supply rarely purchased insignias and their need to make a profit), my biggest issue is not with their higher prices, but with the quality and inconsistency of their uniform insignias.

[Holding Pattern]

Another uniform change,  ABU now,  what is next in 4 years,  511 ??   Bottom Line,   Uniform change has Vangards name all over it.   One thing going to ABUs,  OK, Fine,  but we now can not even use our name tags, rank,  badges,    CRAZY,   As volunteers,  can only afford so much,  There is NO REASON, why we can not use our current name tags , etc,  Save some money,    Wish I had a multi color sharpie.      Crazy to get rid of all our tags, rank, etc.     Talk about insult to injury.   Someone is NOT thinking about the Volunteers wallet.  For sure.      Wear the blue BBDU,  until it rots off my body,   SMILE

...

If the name tapes, cutouts, and "CIVIL AIR PATROL" tapes cost more than $10 in total... I'd be quite surprised.