Deposits for uniforms

[Pedfltmed22]

I was just wondering if any squadrons charge a deposit for uniforms? I seem to loose a lot of uniforms due to cadets leaving the program and not returning. BDU's are getting hard to come by anyway. Does anyone have any suggestions for this new commander?

[RogueLeader]

As they should have been issued via ORMS, so contact them and let them know that they have property that belongs to cap that they have to return.  If they don't, you can pursue legal action for theft.

[C/ID-073]

At my squadron we have an area were we keep all our uniform supplies and normally we just give it out, but I do understand BDU's are hard to come by. Normally, if we don't have something we tell people to order it on vanguard (which is also good for sizes). We also have the same issue with cadets taking uniforms when they leave. We don't give uniforms out until our cadets are finished with the new cadet program, and we ask that people give their uniforms back when they leave. But there is always going to be those cadets who take uniforms...there's nothing you can really do about it unless you have all the cadets buy their uniforms, then they can keep them.
That seems to work pretty well for us, but it also depends how much uniform supplies you have. Hope I could help.
Respectfully,
C/Capt. Kubik

[Pedfltmed22]

As they should have been issued via ORMS, so contact them and let them know that they have property that belongs to cap that they have to return.  If they don't, you can pursue legal action for theft.

I didn't know you could issue uniforms through ORMS. I will look into that. Thank you for the info.

[kwe1009]

As they should have been issued via ORMS, so contact them and let them know that they have property that belongs to cap that they have to return.  If they don't, you can pursue legal action for theft.

I haven't heard of that being done.  Does it help with getting uniforms returned?  Do you actually call the police when a uniform isn't returned?  If anyone is doing this successfully I would love to hear about it as I know this is a big issue across CAP.

[Damron]

ORMS tracks non-expendable CAP property but makes specific (and exceptional) reference to the Cadet Uniform Program, which does not include BDU's.

With regards to uniforms issued via the Cadet Uniform Program, there is a requirement that the commander attempt to recover uniforms if a cadet leaves the program in the first year.  The wording suggests that there is no enforcement mechanism and efforts be limited.   Generally, minors  can't enter into contracts so legal remedies are probably precluded ... and silly.

With regards to BDU's, I would consider them expendable property and exempt from ORMS.  If squadrons were purchasing new uniforms they might be considered non-expendable but I think that's a stretch.   Our squadron attempts to provide cadets with BDU's acquired via private sector surplus retailers and documents these purchases in our financial statements but we never thought they belong in ORMS.   

If your squadron struggles to afford to provide used BDU's to 10, 20, 30 cadets per year, you need to address your fundraising shortcomings. 

Deposits?  This seems like a pain in the butt that isn't worth the time, hassle, and financial accountability.

[RogueLeader]

As they should have been issued via ORMS, so contact them and let them know that they have property that belongs to cap that they have to return.  If they don't, you can pursue legal action for theft.

I haven't heard of that being done.  Does it help with getting uniforms returned?  Do you actually call the police when a uniform isn't returned?  If anyone is doing this successfully I would love to hear about it as I know this is a big issue across CAP.

I've heard anecdotal evidence that it works some of the time.  I guess it depends if a Sheriff or Police Chief wants to take time with it.  Most people that I know of don't like having a LE Official walk up to their door, and say "Do you have property that belongs to CAP?  Because they really need it back."  Of course, if they answer no; then it is up to you to decide if it is worth the effort to pursue  the action further, even with the documentation.  To me, that's as far as I'd take it.  I'm not going through the expense of trying to get $100 worth of used uniforms back.

That being said, most of the BDU's that I've seen issued are almost to out of their service life, so I've never made an issue of it.  When I was a Squadron Commander; it was my policy is that if they made it a year, they could keep what was issued.  If they did not last that year- and I did have a couple- I made them turn in their Blues that they got for free.  I also asked them to donate whatever other uniforms they had to the program.  I had 1 that did donate, and one that decided not to. Which is fine.  They both turned in their Blues.

[Damron]

Law enforcement? I would feel like a jerk calling the police over a uniform.  Unless a parent is signing a contractural agreement, the law isn't on CAP's side, minors can't enter into contracts and it doesn't pass the smell test as far as civil or criminal precedence.

[kwe1009]

One thing that we started in my squadron last year was having cadets purchase the uniforms from us initially and then free exchanges for larger sizes, etc for as long as the cadet was in the program.  The prices we charged were at least half of what Vanguard was selling.  For BDUs, we charge about half of what the local surplus stores are charging for used.  This has worked pretty well so far.  For the cadet who leaves the program, we offer to buy back the uniforms at the same price that we sold them. 

This is basically the same as a deposit but this way we don't have to track who paid the deposit and who didn't.

[RogueLeader]

Law enforcement? I would feel like a jerk calling the police over a uniform.  Unless a parent is signing a contractural agreement, the law isn't on CAP's side, minors can't enter into contracts and it doesn't pass the smell test as far as civil or criminal precedence.

Their parents did sign a contract when they approved their children's membership that includes agreeing to follow orders and regulations set by the organization.  If a cadet is issued property of CAP, regardless of the cost, it belongs to CAP and the Organization has the right to collect it back. 

That being said, I have never used that, nor would I.  I would simply write the uniforms off, and call it a day.  It is, however, an option that could used.

[Garibaldi]

Law enforcement? I would feel like a jerk calling the police over a uniform.  Unless a parent is signing a contractural agreement, the law isn't on CAP's side, minors can't enter into contracts and it doesn't pass the smell test as far as civil or criminal precedence.

Their parents did sign a contract when they approved their children's membership that includes agreeing to follow orders and regulations set by the organization.  If a cadet is issued property of CAP, regardless of the cost, it belongs to CAP and the Organization has the right to collect it back. 

That being said, I have never used that, nor would I.  I would simply write the uniforms off, and call it a day.  It is, however, an option that could used.

To me, it gives the new cadet a sense of accountability in some cases. Like, this is real, they're making me SIGN FOR THE THINGS.

I highly doubt that a LEO would try to intervene. Maybe a lawyer, since the parents signed as Rogue said.

[RogueLeader]

Like I said, I have anecdotal evidence that it has happened.   To me, its just not worth it to go the LE angle.  It's so much easier to bring the core values as a reminder of their obligations, not to mention the Cadet Oath.  If either of those mean anything at all to the cadet, they will return the uniform items.

[Damron]

As they should have been issued via ORMS, so contact them and let them know that they have property that belongs to cap that they have to return.  If they don't, you can pursue legal action for theft.

Who is "you"?  CAP's legal counsel has never gone after a cadet over a uniform and never will. As far as surplus BDU's go, they should not be entered into ORMS unless that directive comes down from the top - and it won't. 

[Spam]

Uniforms are considered expendable, non tracked items, and shouldn't be entered into ORMS.

Nonexpendable items would be radios, laptops, etc. It is required to issue them to individuals online via ORMS, and I recommend generating a hand receipt Form 37 for the individual to emphasize "this is in your keeping, if you trash or lose it, you should PAY FOR IT".

Expendable items would include uniforms, MREs, and non durable things that we expect to wear out and not to get back (at a USAF level, not a local level).  It would be very appropriate for us to emphasize that these are not giveaways, but that at a local level we need to pull together as a team to ensure that any expendables we aren't using any more should in fairness be turned back in, rather than hoarded or used for non-CAP purposes (e.g. paintball games, hunting).

I recommend tracking uniform and field gear issues via CAP Form 111, http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/u_093003105504.pdf. Having these printed out in an imposing looking "S4 Logistics Orders Book", and having your LGS require members to actually SIGN for them can create and reinforce the mental sense of "issue/return" responsibility rather than "yeah, free stuff for me to keep".

V/R
Spam

[lordmonar]

I have never herd about anyone asking for a deposit for uniforms.
But the more I sit here and think about it.......it does have some merit.

Pros: 
A) It establishes to the cadet that the uniforms are valuable.
B) It will help in the recovery of said uniforms.
C) If people walk with said uniforms....it is another source of revenue for the unit.

Cons:
A) We are adding more up-front costs to the member.
B) We have to track and account for that deposit.
C) We have to make sure we keep sufficient funds on hand to pay back a mass exodus worst case scenario.

[RogueLeader]

You can actually use ORMS for expendable property, there is the electronic 111 in ORMS if I recall correctly.

I should also note that BDU's gotten from DRMO (or whatever the new name is) are REQUIRED to be returned to DRMO at the end of their serviceable life for disposal.

As they should have been issued via ORMS, so contact them and let them know that they have property that belongs to cap that they have to return.  If they don't, you can pursue legal action for theft.

Who is "you"?  CAP's legal counsel has never gone after a cadet over a uniform and never will. As far as surplus BDU's go, they should not be entered into ORMS unless that directive comes down from the top - and it won't. 

"You" is the Commander of an organization.  The few stories I've heard, is that cadets in a unit, didn't return uniform items, and the Commander took the signed CAPF 111 to a Sheriff and asked him to help return the items.  The Sheriff got the items returned.  I do not know names or dates. Yes, this is hearsay.

Would I do it? No.  Could that be done? Sure.  Would it go very far? .001% Chance or smaller.  Would legal back you on old uniforms?  I doubt it.

Depending on the situation, the threat of an action maybe enough to get them to do the right thing.

[RogueLeader]

Cons:
A) We are adding more up-front costs to the member.

Even charging a deposit for uniforms, that is still less than the costs of buying brand new uniforms. Particularly as they have the option of getting uniforms from supply at a rate less than new uniforms- which are always an option.  It also creates more buy-in into the program, by having more skin in the game than just the $28 for membership- or whatever the cost in your wing is.

[Garibaldi]

I have a friend cycling out of the Army on a medical retirement. I asked her, somewhat jokingly, if there were any items she was keeping that I could either talk her out of or buy from her. She told me that the Army takes back EVERYTHING when a Soldier leaves, except for items that make skin contact, such as hats, trousers, t-shirts, socks, blouses, and so on (she has the option of buying some of the equipment at market value). Doesn't matter if it's after 6 days or 6 years. I would think that the same should apply to CAP, since we potentially have more than one cadet using a set of BDUs before the service life is reached. Usually, the policy in the units I've been in is that after a year, whatever uniform you're issued is yours if you've stayed an active member, or if you've outgrown what was given you you can trade it in. This means that cadet A, who's been in since age 12 and hit a growth spurt at age 12.5, would turn in the uniform he was issued for one that fits, and new cadet B, the same size as cadet A, could be issued the same uniform. And so on. In a unit as small as ours, with limited resources and storage space, the probability of a uniform being used by more than 1 cadet is higher than, say, Nellis Composite (just the first one that came to mind).

[SMWOG]

When I was a squadron CC,we usally could get cadets into.uniforms at no cost to the cadet. On one occasion we did not have shoes for a cadet. We provided cadet and parent with info on where to purchase and her response"I should not have to buy these,cant you?"

I have found that members who purchase their own stuff tend to take care of it better.

[stillamarine]

Law enforcement? I would feel like a jerk calling the police over a uniform.  Unless a parent is signing a contractural agreement, the law isn't on CAP's side, minors can't enter into contracts and it doesn't pass the smell test as far as civil or criminal precedence.

As an LEO we can't even go after our own Explorers that don't return their uniforms. There's an almost minuscule chance they'd go after someone for a CAP uniform.