Senior ABUs at the Winter Command Council

[Holding Pattern]

Black boots are much more available then the green boots.
Cops and Fire Fighters wear black boots. So the odds that you can find a pair in your town are pretty good.

Most suppliers for said groups also tend to clearance last year's model at a steep discount too online. Great news for cadets, especially since the cadet sizes are usually the last ones left in stock.

[Storm Chaser]

Black boots are much more available then the green boots.
Cops and Fire Fighters wear black boots. So the odds that you can find a pair in your town are pretty good.

Maybe so, but "Cops and Fire Fighters " are not wearing ABUs.

I understand the argument in favor of black boots. I understand availability and cost. But if availability and cost are so important for CAP members, then why go to ABUs at all? They cost more. They're not going to be locally available unless the member lives close to an Air Force Base. And the way they're sized in comparison to BDUs means cadets will outgrow their uniforms faster and many senior members may need a couple of different sizes to account for changes in weight.

Besides uniform donations, which would favor sage green and tan boots over black ones, the only good argument in favor of ABUs is that we'll look more like our parent service. Except that the black boots will set us apart more so than any other distinctive insignia we wear with the other Air Force-style uniforms.

All things considered, I think the blue Corporate BDU is a better option for CAP.

[Luis R. Ramos]

The ONLY ones that will see the difference are... AIRMEN! And those of us that are prior service airmen. I use the term airmen to include Air Force officers and enlisted. And CAP members.

The public at large will not know that real airmen do not wear black boots, and will not care.

It is a continuation of the phenomena "that 12 year old is wearing a military-style uniform therefore that person is in the military" that many civilians adopt however wrong...

Most of you military and ex-military that are arguing for us not to use the black boots not because they are not a good combination but because you were conditioned in the service that "black boots are not worn with ABUs."

Me, I have never been in the service, therefore I do not care if I wear black boots with the ABU or not. I have two pairs of black boots, but no sage or tan boots.

[Storm Chaser]

Most of you military and ex-military that are arguing for us not to use the black boots not because they are not a good combination but because you were conditioned in the service that "black boots are not worn with ABUs."

As oppose to being "conditioned" that BDUs should look like Christmas trees with multiple color patches?

If black boots were a better combination for ABUs, then the Air Force would've adopted that color instead. So would have the Army when they went to ACUs. After all, there was no shortage of black boots at the time.

To be fair, sage green boots are not the only good alternative for ABUs. Tan boots are widely available, are prized reasonably, look fine with ABUs, and would be distinctive enough for CAP. The only draw back, other than having to buy a pair, is that you wouldn't be able to use them with other uniforms, which I know was a consideration.

Sage green boots are used with FDUs by the Air Force and for a while were authorized with woodland BDUs.

[vorteks]

... The only draw back, other than having to buy a pair, is that you wouldn't be able to use them with other uniforms, which I know was a consideration.

And cadets will have to find something else to polish.

[Storm Chaser]

... The only draw back, other than having to buy a pair, is that you wouldn't be able to use them with other uniforms, which I know was a consideration.

And cadets will have to find something else to polish.

True.

BTW, I'm just offering an opinion. I know the decision has been made and if the Air Force approves it, it will be "final". I'm fine with that.

[SMWOG]

opinion: sage boots. looks better with ABU
               black boots look horrible with ABU.
Fact:      sage boots not sold at commercial brick and mortar stores nation wide.
               sage boots on average cost $100 and up.
               black tactical style boots aviliable at commercial store for less than $50.
   
              My personal thoughts are that the AF should have just stayed with tan boots. I know K Mart carries military tan tactical boots and most commercial public safety vendors. We have AFROTC units tryng to donate sage boots and ARMY ROTC units trying to donate tan boots so those CAP units are going to loose  out.  Im not thrilled with black boots for this uniform,but my boots are still going to be used for my flight suit and I can use them for EMS. I will save 100
plus dollars and not have.more footwear to add to my wardrobe. If the ABU gets approved you will see(no ddoubt) some members wearing sage or tan boots. As for patches,we should stick with the AF wear,no unit patches,clean simple and not looking like a BSA uniform.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Storm,

I am pretty sure the Air Force looked at other factors beside the "fashion statement of which boot color looks best with this uniform?" They considered, probably was at the top of the list whether "black is not a natural color" and which boot can be seen less with NVG as well before deciding on the sage or tans.

If it is just looks, to me they look the same with the ABU. Black, sage, and tan.

[JoeTomasone]

Sure. Choosing black boots benefits some members and choosing sage green benefits others. Unfortunately, members who have benefited from donated used boots in the past, especially cadets, are going to miss out on a ton of old, still serviceable green boots available now and in the future. Heck, if they were to approve tan boots that number would jump exponentially. The black boots "solution" is only good in the immediate future, but doesn't take into account the long term scarcity since most services don't have them anymore.

True, but there are a whole lot more folks than just the military using black boots. The costs for black boots, basic ones, are 60%-70% less than basic green suede boots. Of course, you can go high end and spend more, but the same is true with the green boots. Plus black boots have a much higher availability than the greens.

Maybe make them optional, like give them a choice between the sage and black? I think the blouse, with the new insignia, will be distinctive enough.

The NUC disagrees, and they had USAF representation on the committee.  The black boots were an integral distinctiveness element as part of the proposal.

But, oddly, not so for the BDUs...

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

But since it is a camouflage uniform of sorts, will it pass the renowned "low-light/at-a-distance" litmus test?

I'm surprised they didn't insist on at least part of it being grey.

[THRAWN]

Sure. Choosing black boots benefits some members and choosing sage green benefits others. Unfortunately, members who have benefited from donated used boots in the past, especially cadets, are going to miss out on a ton of old, still serviceable green boots available now and in the future. Heck, if they were to approve tan boots that number would jump exponentially. The black boots "solution" is only good in the immediate future, but doesn't take into account the long term scarcity since most services don't have them anymore.

True, but there are a whole lot more folks than just the military using black boots. The costs for black boots, basic ones, are 60%-70% less than basic green suede boots. Of course, you can go high end and spend more, but the same is true with the green boots. Plus black boots have a much higher availability than the greens.

Maybe make them optional, like give them a choice between the sage and black? I think the blouse, with the new insignia, will be distinctive enough.

The NUC disagrees, and they had USAF representation on the committee.  The black boots were an integral distinctiveness element as part of the proposal.

But, oddly, not so for the BDUs...

Mostly because sage and tan boots were not in the inventory when the BDU hit the street.

[Luis R. Ramos]

I sense some contrary thoughts in this thread...

On the one hand members say "CAP has to wear the ABU since it is our parent service uniform..."

Then the same members say "Ma Blue will only let us wear their uniform if we wear it different..."

Then the same members say "We should only wear Sage Green or Tan boots since that is what worn with ABUs... Black boots are not good..."

Then the same members say "We should wear the ABU without CAP patches or badges more like Ma Blue wears it..."



So what should it be? The ABU like the Air Force wears it? Sterilize it so patches are removed, wear the suede or tan boots...

The ABU with changes so we cannot be confused with Air Force personnel? So, don't fight black boots and color badges and patches...



Be consistent!

[lordmonar]

If you are going to call out one guy for his changing position....just call out the guy.

So......for my position.....

A.   ABUs are great.
B.  Would rather the sage boots....but black is not too bad.
C.  I like the Navy instead of the Ultramarine.
D.  I would like no patches....but I'm not butt hurt about patches.  I can control them locally. (I've already talked with my wing commander about a supplement once the new manual hits the street and I'm gonna start talking with my region commander soon) and will apply peer pressure via NCO network to influence other wings/regions.

and please note.

Nothing is FINAL.
Say we start with the black boots for reasons X,Y,Z.....does not mean we can't change down the road.  IIRC NIN posted some nice pictures of BDUs with with T-shirts and that changed with time.  I remember when we were not allowed to wear Gortex, and that changed.
Nothing is static.

[PHall]

I sense some contrary thoughts in this thread...

On the one hand members say "CAP has to wear the ABU since it is our parent service uniform..."

Then the same members say "Ma Blue will only let us wear their uniform if we wear it different..."

Then the same members say "We should only wear Sage Green or Tan boots since that is what worn with ABUs... Black boots are not good..."

Then the same members say "We should wear the ABU without CAP patches or badges more like Ma Blue wears it..."



So what should it be? The ABU like the Air Force wears it? Sterilize it so patches are removed, wear the suede or tan boots...

The ABU with changes so we cannot be confused with Air Force personnel? So, don't fight black boots and color badges and patches...



Be consistent!

We are being consistent. We are following the guidance given in AFI10-2701 which governs CAP.

[raivo]

opinion: sage boots. looks better with ABU
               black boots look horrible with ABU.

FWIW, a lot of people thought sand t-shirts and sage boots looked terrible with flightsuits back when the ABU was being rolled out... now nobody even thinks about it, it's just the way things are.

[goblin]

opinion: sage boots. looks better with ABU
               black boots look horrible with ABU.

FWIW, a lot of people thought sand t-shirts and sage boots looked terrible with flightsuits back when the ABU was being rolled out... now nobody even thinks about it, it's just the way things are.

They still look terrible.

A lot of units made their Friday "morale" shirts black as a throwback to the "good ol days"

YMMV

[PHall]

opinion: sage boots. looks better with ABU
               black boots look horrible with ABU.

FWIW, a lot of people thought sand t-shirts and sage boots looked terrible with flightsuits back when the ABU was being rolled out... now nobody even thinks about it, it's just the way things are.

They still look terrible.

A lot of units made their Friday "morale" shirts black as a throwback to the "good ol days"

YMMV

More likely they made them black because black T shirts are cheaper.

[kwe1009]

Back when the Air Force still wore BDU's and DCU's, black t-shirts and black boots were worn with both uniforms.  I don't recall a huge uproar over this either.

[N6RVT]

We are being consistent. We are following the guidance given in AFI10-2701 which governs CAP.

People beg for ABU's for years - then when it looks like we will get them, instead of being happy everybody is griping about minor style differences.

[Luis R. Ramos]

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