Questions about the blue polo shirt uniform combo and senior BDU's

[Storm Chaser]

As a cadet, it is my general practice to salute all senior members, regardless of uniform. When in polo/blazer, it appears that it is their choice to salute back. It is not expected, but I believe it should be encouraged.

Just remember, not every senior member is an officer. Cadets only need to salute officers in the grades of FO or higher. A verbal greeting should be rendered to all other senior members without grade or NCOs.

No distinction is made between Senior member Officers and NCO's.

CAPP-151, Respect on Display, page 5, first sentence under 'Key Principle.'     

" When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves."

Emphasis mine.

"Pamphlets" are nondirective, informative, "how-to" type publications that may include suggested methods and techniques for implementing CAP policies.

With a few exceptions (reporting, for example), NCOs and other non-officers are not normally saluted.

After some thought, I don't think it's worth having an argument over this.

[kwe1009]

Let's make this very simple.  Most people who served in the military were taught, "when in doubt, whip it out" in regards to saluting.  Also it is respectful to return any salute that you are given and the salute should be a correct one.  If the person saluting you really shouldn't have, then you can correct after returning the salute.

I always return salutes and if one is given to me.  If a person is going to make the effort to salute then the least I can do is return it properly regardless of what uniform I am wearing.

[TheSkyHornet]

Let's make this very simple.  Most people who served in the military were taught, "when in doubt, whip it out" in regards to saluting.  Also it is respectful to return any salute that you are given and the salute should be a correct one.  If the person saluting you really shouldn't have, then you can correct after returning the salute.

I always return salutes and if one is given to me.  If a person is going to make the effort to salute then the least I can do is return it properly regardless of what uniform I am wearing.

That's the key. If you don't know if you should salute, salute. The worst will be that you'll be corrected if it wasn't required. It's better than not saluting when you should have.

If you get some prick who has a real issue with the fact that you saluted, when you shouldn't have, then suck it up and move on, and know for next time. It's not something to dwell on endlessly

[Ned]

No distinction is made between Senior member Officers and NCO's.

CAPP-151, Respect on Display, page 5, first sentence under 'Key Principle.'     

" When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves."

Emphasis mine.

(I may have screwed up the quote tags)


Thanks for that.  It looks like a typo to me, which we will fix.  Our intent was to have the sentence read "When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior member officers, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves."

I've already added it to the "fix this at the next revision file."

Ned Lee
National Cadet Programs Manager

[xray328]

Just for clarification, when you first join and you have no rank and are just an "SM" does that make you and officer or not?  I'm thinking not?

Thinking back to my days as both a cadet and an enlisted guy, I can tell you that if someone didn't return my salute my opinion of them changed that instant, and not for the better.  If I take the time and effort (minimal of course) to render a salute, the least they can do is return it.  It's being done out of respect and the person I'm saluting should be respectful enough to return it.

[TheSkyHornet]

Just for clarification, when you first join and you have no rank and are just an "SM" does that make you and officer or not?  I'm thinking not?

Thinking back to my days as both a cadet and an enlisted guy, I can tell you that if someone didn't return my salute my opinion of them changed that instant, and not for the better.  If I take the time and effort (minimal of course) to render a salute, the least they can do is return it.  It's being done out of respect and the person I'm saluting should be respectful enough to return it.

It should always be returned, or something as simple as "You don't need to salute me" with a friendly smile, anything to indicate politeness, whether they salute back or not. It's all in how the situation gets responded to. If they walk by and don't say anything, and don't render a salute, ignore it and move on.

One of the biggest issues with the whole "He didn't salute me" or "Why didn't she salute back?" is that people drag it on and on. Just get over it and carry on with what you were doing. No use in getting upset over it.

Senior Members, while not officers, are considered superior to all cadets and warrant a salute per CAPP-151. The exception should be NCOs, who aren't really supposed to warrant a salute in a military culture, but positions were made for NCOs; however, there is nothing saying NCOs would be saluted. According the CAPP-151, all Senior Members warrant a salute, although I personally don't believe it's warranted. In the end, regs are regs, and if an NCO wants a salute by a cadet because he/she is a Senior, really, the regs don't say otherwise. Maybe leave that one up to the Squadron Commander at that level. CAP NCOs are former enlisted anyway, and most likely wouldn't expect a salute unless they believe it makes them feel more important.

When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves.

"CAP senior members"

It has no discretion as to officers. Cadets salute all seniors.

Now, if you want to get tricky, would a Senior Member NCO salute a Senior Member of non-officership? No, because a Senior Member NCO outranks a non-officer Senior Member. Likewise, that Senior Member would not salute the NCO.

I think this is getting beat to death. It really isn't a huge deal.

[xray328]

Agreed, much more in depth than I was planning on, but good information regardless.  I'm going to be instructing cadets so I'm thankful for this resource and for everyone's help.

[Storm Chaser]

Just for clarification, when you first join and you have no rank and are just an "SM" does that make you and officer or not?  I'm thinking not?

A new senior member is not an officer until their initial appointment to 2d Lt (unless they qualify for a higher grade). During those first six months, senior members may choose the officer track or, if they qualify, the NCO track and will wear the appropriate uniform for the track selected in accordance with CAPM 39-1.

[Storm Chaser]

Just for clarification, when you first join and you have no rank and are just an "SM" does that make you and officer or not?  I'm thinking not?

Thinking back to my days as both a cadet and an enlisted guy, I can tell you that if someone didn't return my salute my opinion of them changed that instant, and not for the better.  If I take the time and effort (minimal of course) to render a salute, the least they can do is return it.  It's being done out of respect and the person I'm saluting should be respectful enough to return it.

It should always be returned, or something as simple as "You don't need to salute me" with a friendly smile, anything to indicate politeness, whether they salute back or not. It's all in how the situation gets responded to. If they walk by and don't say anything, and don't render a salute, ignore it and move on.

One of the biggest issues with the whole "He didn't salute me" or "Why didn't she salute back?" is that people drag it on and on. Just get over it and carry on with what you were doing. No use in getting upset over it.

Senior Members, while not officers, are considered superior to all cadets and warrant a salute per CAPP-151. The exception should be NCOs, who aren't really supposed to warrant a salute in a military culture, but positions were made for NCOs; however, there is nothing saying NCOs would be saluted. According the CAPP-151, all Senior Members warrant a salute, although I personally don't believe it's warranted. In the end, regs are regs, and if an NCO wants a salute by a cadet because he/she is a Senior, really, the regs don't say otherwise. Maybe leave that one up to the Squadron Commander at that level. CAP NCOs are former enlisted anyway, and most likely wouldn't expect a salute unless they believe it makes them feel more important.

When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves.

"CAP senior members"

It has no discretion as to officers. Cadets salute all seniors.

Ned already explained that that was a typo that will be corrected in the next revision of CAPP 151.

[TheSkyHornet]

I caught that.

However, the current revision is still policy, not the pending revision.

[vorteks]

I caught that.

However, the current revision is still policy, not the pending revision.

It's also been pointed out that CAPP 151 is a pamphlet, and that "'Pamphlets' are nondirective, informative, 'how-to' type publications that may include suggested methods and techniques for implementing CAP policies."

[lordmonar]

I caught that.

However, the current revision is still policy, not the pending revision.

Yeah....let's just blindly follow orders.....even if they are wrong.

[Ned]

Guys,

Let's not go crazy here.  If somebody wants to salute a SMWOG "because it says so in a pamphlet," have at it.  Nobody is going to get disciplined for it.

We'll fix the typo.  Nothing to see here, folks, move along.

Look -- SQUIRREL!

[Fubar]

Look -- SQUIRREL!

Do I have to salute it?

[Eaker Guy]

Look -- SQUIRREL!

Do I have to salute it?

You don't have to if it's wearing a polo!

[SarDragon]

After my time in the canoe club, it is still difficult for me to salute when not wearing a hat/cover/cap/headgear. The mantra in the Navy is, "no hat, no salute." I recall also learning that as a cadet back in the '60s, but could be in error.

[LSThiker]

I caught that.

However, the current revision is still policy, not the pending revision.

Aerospace Education is suppose to be the rocket science, not CAPP 151.  Seriously, common sense applies in situations.  Officers are saluted, NCOs are not.

[Mitchell 1969]

A new senior member is not an officer until their initial appointment to 2d Lt (unless they qualify for a higher grade).

Or, perhaps, qualify for one LOWER than 2d Lt.


Such as Flight Officer.

[Storm Chaser]

Right.

[JC004]

A new senior member is not an officer until their initial appointment to 2d Lt (unless they qualify for a higher grade).

Or, perhaps, qualify for one LOWER than 2d Lt.


Such as Flight Officer.

I'm pretty sure there's a lot of people who believe Flight Officers are a myth.

WIWAFO, people were always stopping to ask what the heck I was.