drivel... was: Navy Awards on Cap Uniform

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^You are entirely free to ignore anything I say, regarding headdress for the G/W or any other topic.  I can only speak from my own experience.

[Eclipse]

Does anyone know how many formal proposals for a corporate aviator shirt uniform headgear have been submitted and rejected by the NUC, CAP/CC, CAP-USAF/CC, etc.?

It would be nice if they would tell us.

Have you asked them?   Or is it easier to whine about it here on CAPTalk?

Yes - insofar as a lowly Captain has access to TPTB.  I have asked various squadron CC's...and they say they "don't know/don't care/can't figure it out/that's way above my paygrade."

I believe that is called "using the chain."

So whining here on CAPTalk is "using the chain" too?   Interesting....  They never covered that in any of the PME courses I've taken over the years.

Posts here tend to get a lot more attention and reaction then things "through the chain".

[lordmonar]

Yes - insofar as a lowly Captain has access to TPTB.  I have asked various squadron CC's...and they say they "don't know/don't care/can't figure it out/that's way above my paygrade."

I believe that is called "using the chain."

Well......no.....not really.
That's the first link in the "chain".....but you know that right?

The point I am making....and have been making is....you are either doing something about it or you just belly aching.

Asking your squadron commander is step one.....don't get the answer you like there you move up.

If you choose to not to move up.....then the problem lies with you not CAP, not TPTB, not the NUC, not the USAF.

[/rant]Sorry.....but I'm getting tired of the same old arguments.

[Flying Pig]

  If you really need a hat to wear, push for something like a nice fitted baseball hat with your rank on it or something.  A blue beret in the GW combo is something I don't even have words for.

[AlphaSigOU]

I wouldn't have a major case of agita if we wind up with a dark blue (or gray) fitted baseball cap. No designs embroidered on it, no cheap-assed trucker 'gimme cap', and no plastic adjustable strap. Allow wear of grade insignia (or if not, the CAP senior member flight cap insignia) and maybe (as long as the powers theat be don't have kittens sideways) allow 'farts and darts' on the bill for field grade and general officers. And make sure people are instructed to wear it properly!

[Eclipse]

Would you wear a ball cap with the blues?

There's your answer as to proper headgear for the whites.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Would you wear a ball cap with the blues?

There's your answer as to proper headgear for the whites.

My point exactly...a "dressier" uniform with a work-style cap.  Not fitting (in every way).

[arajca]

Yes - insofar as a lowly Captain has access to TPTB.  I have asked various squadron CC's...and they say they "don't know/don't care/can't figure it out/that's way above my paygrade."

I believe that is called "using the chain."

Well......no.....not really.
That's the first link in the "chain".....but you know that right?

The point I am making....and have been making is....you are either doing something about it or you just belly aching.

Asking your squadron commander is step one.....don't get the answer you like there you move up.

If you choose to not to move up.....then the problem lies with you not CAP, not TPTB, not the NUC, not the USAF.

[/rant]Sorry.....but I'm getting tired of the same old arguments.

The system, as established by CAP, is designed to allow the commander at ANY POINT in the chain reject any uniform suggestion. If the unit CC rejects it, THAT'S AS FAR AS IT GOES. There is no provision to jump over ANY step in the chain. So, choosing to "move up" is not an option. The only required notification to the submitter is if the CAP/CC rejects it.

[abdsp51]

The system, as established by CAP, is designed to allow the commander at ANY POINT in the chain reject any uniform suggestion. If the unit CC rejects it, THAT'S AS FAR AS IT GOES. There is no provision to jump over ANY step in the chain. So, choosing to "move up" is not an option. The only required notification to the submitter is if the CAP/CC rejects it.

Which If I ever became the NHQ that is one of the first things that would change.  Only the Nat CC and NUC can reject uniform change proposals.

[arajca]

The system, as established by CAP, is designed to allow the commander at ANY POINT in the chain reject any uniform suggestion. If the unit CC rejects it, THAT'S AS FAR AS IT GOES. There is no provision to jump over ANY step in the chain. So, choosing to "move up" is not an option. The only required notification to the submitter is if the CAP/CC rejects it.

Which If I ever became the NHQ that is one of the first things that would change.  Only the Nat CC and NUC can reject uniform change proposals.

I completely agree with you, but my suggestion went nowhere.

[Storm Chaser]

Yes - insofar as a lowly Captain has access to TPTB.  I have asked various squadron CC's...and they say they "don't know/don't care/can't figure it out/that's way above my paygrade."

I believe that is called "using the chain."

Well......no.....not really.
That's the first link in the "chain".....but you know that right?

The point I am making....and have been making is....you are either doing something about it or you just belly aching.

Asking your squadron commander is step one.....don't get the answer you like there you move up.

If you choose to not to move up.....then the problem lies with you not CAP, not TPTB, not the NUC, not the USAF.

[/rant]Sorry.....but I'm getting tired of the same old arguments.

The system, as established by CAP, is designed to allow the commander at ANY POINT in the chain reject any uniform suggestion. If the unit CC rejects it, THAT'S AS FAR AS IT GOES. There is no provision to jump over ANY step in the chain. So, choosing to "move up" is not an option. The only required notification to the submitter is if the CAP/CC rejects it.

That's not necessarily true. While CAPM 39-1 states that "[e]ach commander in the member's chain of command (unit, group, wing, and region as appropriate) must concur for the recommendation to be advanced to the next level...", there's nothing to stop a member from going to the group or wing commander, as applicable, if the squadron commander rejects a uniform proposal. At most, the commander at the next level may also reject the proposal. But if he/she agrees with it, it may still be forwarded to the next level. That's how the chain of command works.

[lordmonar]

+1
My point exactly

[PHall]

Yes - insofar as a lowly Captain has access to TPTB.  I have asked various squadron CC's...and they say they "don't know/don't care/can't figure it out/that's way above my paygrade."

I believe that is called "using the chain."

Well......no.....not really.
That's the first link in the "chain".....but you know that right?

The point I am making....and have been making is....you are either doing something about it or you just belly aching.

Asking your squadron commander is step one.....don't get the answer you like there you move up.

If you choose to not to move up.....then the problem lies with you not CAP, not TPTB, not the NUC, not the USAF.

[/rant]Sorry.....but I'm getting tired of the same old arguments.

The system, as established by CAP, is designed to allow the commander at ANY POINT in the chain reject any uniform suggestion. If the unit CC rejects it, THAT'S AS FAR AS IT GOES. There is no provision to jump over ANY step in the chain. So, choosing to "move up" is not an option. The only required notification to the submitter is if the CAP/CC rejects it.

That's not necessarily true. While CAPM 39-1 states that "[e]ach commander in the member's chain of command (unit, group, wing, and region as appropriate) must concur for the recommendation to be advanced to the next level...", there's nothing to stop a member from going to the group or wing commander, as applicable, if the squadron commander rejects a uniform proposal. At most, the commander at the next level may also reject the proposal. But if he/she agrees with it, it may still be forwarded to the next level. That's how the chain of command works.

No, that's jumping the chain.  And it's NOT the way to get on your commander's "good" side.

[lordmonar]

Yes it is not a good way of being a "good airman". But it is how the chain of command works.   
Just be ready for the fall out.

[ZigZag911]

In an era when any member can ask the National CC a question online through the CAP web site, wouldn't a 'suggestion box' -- for ALL National committees -- make more sense, and be more useful?

These are not "chain of command" issues, and, frankly, having a system where any single individual can quash an idea based on personal preference is ridiculous.

I am not recommending anarchy, chaos, or the end of civilization as we know it...just a place to drop ideas and see if they gather traction.

Essentially, an official version of CAP Talk!

[Storm Chaser]

Yes - insofar as a lowly Captain has access to TPTB.  I have asked various squadron CC's...and they say they "don't know/don't care/can't figure it out/that's way above my paygrade."

I believe that is called "using the chain."

Well......no.....not really.
That's the first link in the "chain".....but you know that right?

The point I am making....and have been making is....you are either doing something about it or you just belly aching.

Asking your squadron commander is step one.....don't get the answer you like there you move up.

If you choose to not to move up.....then the problem lies with you not CAP, not TPTB, not the NUC, not the USAF.

[/rant]Sorry.....but I'm getting tired of the same old arguments.

The system, as established by CAP, is designed to allow the commander at ANY POINT in the chain reject any uniform suggestion. If the unit CC rejects it, THAT'S AS FAR AS IT GOES. There is no provision to jump over ANY step in the chain. So, choosing to "move up" is not an option. The only required notification to the submitter is if the CAP/CC rejects it.

That's not necessarily true. While CAPM 39-1 states that "[e]ach commander in the member's chain of command (unit, group, wing, and region as appropriate) must concur for the recommendation to be advanced to the next level...", there's nothing to stop a member from going to the group or wing commander, as applicable, if the squadron commander rejects a uniform proposal. At most, the commander at the next level may also reject the proposal. But if he/she agrees with it, it may still be forwarded to the next level. That's how the chain of command works.

No, that's jumping the chain.  And it's NOT the way to get on your commander's "good" side.

If you go to your commander first and let him/her know in a professional and respectful manner that you disagree with his/her decision and will elevate to the next level, then you're not "jumping the chain". If fact, that's how the chain of command is supposed to work. Now, can you get on your commander's bad side for doing this? Possibly. So my recommendation is to make sure that the issue you want to escalate is worth the potential trouble you may have later on. In other words, you have to pick your battles wisely.

That said, your commander is not supposed to retaliate if you make use of the chain of command in the proper way. If he/she does that, then you may bring the issue up to the commander at the next level and/or may have grounds for an IG complaint if nothing is done to remediate the situation.

[PHall]

In an era when any member can ask the National CC a question online through the CAP web site, wouldn't a 'suggestion box' -- for ALL National committees -- make more sense, and be more useful?

These are not "chain of command" issues, and, frankly, having a system where any single individual can quash an idea based on personal preference is ridiculous.

I am not recommending anarchy, chaos, or the end of civilization as we know it...just a place to drop ideas and see if they gather traction.

Essentially, an official version of CAP Talk!

Better check the National Webpage again. First thing the New Boss did was kill the "Ask the Commander" function.

[Eclipse]

If you go to your commander first and let him/her know in a professional and respectful manner that you disagree with his/her decision and will elevate to the next level, then you're not "jumping the chain".

Yes, you are, by definition.

The chain pre-supposes commanders are capable of addressing and deciding what >is< important
enough to be referred "up" and what isn't, and when it's important enough to go "up" it's supposed to go
"up" by the next echelon, not the rank and file.  That's to insure that every petty disagreement
doesn't wind up on a star's desk or in his IN box.

The rank and file are only supposed to go "up" when there are sustainable complaints or violations of
regulations (or the few safety / CPT issues where the regs indicate direct, immediate wing CC notification).

Your CC indicating to you that "he doesn't feel CAP needs another hat" and quashing a suggestion at the
unit level is >not< an excuse to jump over him and move up, in fact, per 39-1, that is literally prohibited.
Don't like that?  Get a job at an echelon that likes the idea.

A hat may be a trivial example, but what if we were talking about renaming a squadron?  The unit CC
like the current name so a rank-and-file member should go to the Group or Wing CC and "suggest it"?
Plenty of trees have been killed and x-members created related to disciplinary actions for situations like that.

Now, with that said, this is another area CAP plays both sides against the other. It espouses a
consensus-based "we're all in this together" mentality when people raise issues or to avoid uncomfortable
conversations, then it presses only using the chain for the same reason.

The idea that there is any idea under the sun regarding the current multi-form that the NUC is not aware of
is just as silly as the idea that the average rank and file member has a reasonable chance of pressing a suggestion
"through-the-chain".

The multi-form is in its current state because of decades of compromise and avoiding uncomfortable conversations
and realities of who the membership exactly >is<, coupled with the very people charged with enforcing the
rules ignoring them themselves.

Until that changes, these conversations are academic, but this forum is likely the most visible and effective way
to inject new ideas into the circuit.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The one time I went over my CC's head - and I did it with his permission - he turned on me and basically called me every name in the book (he didn't really think I'd do it, which is why he gave me permission) because, in his words, "you're going to bring an IG and probably the Air Force down on this squadron, and then you can forget about any kind of CAP career in this wing."

I said, "Sir, you gave me permission," but he wasn't having it.

It's fortunate for both of us he did this over the phone and not in person.  I am normally very reserved but if you back me into a corner like that with nothing but insults...well, then I'm not very nice.

I quit to avoid getting a 2B.

I'm not doing that again, over something as minor as a hat.  Squadron CC's not interested, I'm not going to force the issue with him.

[lordmonar]

The rank and file are only supposed to go "up" when there are sustainable complaints or violations of
regulations (or the few safety / CPT issues where the regs indicate direct, immediate wing CC notification).

Your CC indicating to you that "he doesn't feel CAP needs another hat" and quashing a suggestion at the
unit level is >not< an excuse to jump over him and move up, in fact, per 39-1, that is literally prohibited.
Don't like that?  Get a job at an echelon that likes the idea.

No...sorry....regs can't stop every members right to take what they think is important up the chain of command.

Having said that.....every member needs to be ready for the fall out of taking every little thing to the national commander....but it is a basic right inherent in the concept of "chain of command".

A memeber's only responsiblity is to try to let the lowest level handel the issue.

So.....your squadron commander squashes your ideal for a tactical TuTu......you may take go over his head.

A hat may be a trivial example, but what if we were talking about renaming a squadron?  The unit CC
like the current name so a rank-and-file member should go to the Group or Wing CC and "suggest it"?
Plenty of trees have been killed and x-members created related to disciplinary actions for situations like that.

Yep...if you abuse the tools....you will be dealt with. 

Now, with that said, this is another area CAP plays both sides against the other. It espouses a
consensus-based "we're all in this together" mentality when people raise issues or to avoid uncomfortable
conversations, then it presses only using the chain for the same reason.

The idea that there is any idea under the sun regarding the current multi-form that the NUC is not aware of
is just as silly as the idea that the average rank and file member has a reasonable chance of pressing a suggestion
"through-the-chain".

The multi-form is in its current state because of decades of compromise and avoiding uncomfortable conversations
and realities of who the membership exactly >is<, coupled with the very people charged with enforcing the
rules ignoring them themselves.

Until that changes, these conversations are academic, but this forum is likely the most visible and effective way
to inject new ideas into the circuit.

I don't think that is giving the NUC enough credit.    Just because you see a problem that the NUC does not see does not mean they are cowards avoiding uncomfortable conversations.

The current rules are set up to make sure the really stupid ideas don't get up to their level.  It puts the burden of selling the idea on the shoulders of the suggester.    You want a hat......but can't even sell the idea to your squadron commander.......maybe it is a bad idea.   

Nothing really wrong with that.

Just go around him.....if you feel that the idea is worth fighting for.