drivel... was: Navy Awards on Cap Uniform

[Alaric]

Most seniors not former military or cadet have no idea what a gig line is, or how to march, or polish boots when they join, and unless they are intimately involved with CP they probably won't learn either as it is not a requirement for either PD, or rank promotion.  Could we fix that sure, but until we do, to me there is no difference between teaching uniform wear in the G/W or in the Polo.

I already knew drill, customs, courtesies etc...but in my first (best) squadron (composite), knowledge of the things you cite was a squadron prerequisite for passing Level I.  And we were tested on it, by a squadron member who was also an NCO in the Air Force Reserve.

At every meeting we assembled in the drill hall - cadets AND seniors - and formally reported in.

We were at an Armed Forces Reserve Centre with National Guard, Navy Reserve, NSCC and Marine Reserve, and it was impressed upon us that we show them proper courtesies.  It was "Good morning, Petty Officer" or "Good evening, Sergeant"...not "Hi, Jim!" or "How's it going, Joe?"

We all wore the AF blue and were held to standards.  I never saw a grey uniform until my first Wing activity, and it was the old-style "no-frills" uniform.  I thought the polo shirt was for casual, off-duty use.  No kidding.

When I moved and transferred to a senior squadron, boy, did I get a culture shock.

Like I say, I think I am increasingly a dinosaur in this "corporate" age.

Just out of curiosity where did you learn customs, courtesies, etc before joining? Read it in a book, researched before joining, come from a military family, JROTC?  Curious where one's learn these things outside a military / pseudo-military organization

The fact that your squadron thought that was important is great, but it is obviously not a priority of NHQ that all members know it or it would be part of the requirements.  The minimal knowledge on these subjects required by the program for seniors is indicative of the importance placed on them by senior leadership.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Have you ever heard of the Air National Guard?  They teach you things like that...

[Alaric]

Have you ever heard of the Air National Guard?

Oh, so like I said, prior military, in case you missed it in the original post

Most seniors not former military or cadet have no idea what a gig line is, or how to march, or polish boots when they join, and unless they are intimately involved with CP they probably won't learn either as it is not a requirement for either PD, or rank promotion.  Could we fix that sure, but until we do, to me there is no difference between teaching uniform wear in the G/W or in the Polo.

[LSThiker]

How do you teach them proper uniform wear while wearing a corporate uniform?  Most seniors not former military or cadet have no idea what a gig line is, or how to march, or polish boots when they join, and unless they are intimately involved with CP they probably won't learn either as it is not a requirement for either PD, or rank promotion.  Could we fix that sure, but until we do, to me there is no difference between teaching uniform wear in the G/W or in the Polo.

The location of accoutrements when compared between the USAF style and Corporate are not far different.  That is, the nameplate, ribbons, badges, etc are all in the spot location.  Besides, even though there are differences between the Senior and Cadet uniforms, stressing correct uniform wear is a method of teaching them proper uniform wear. 

Knowing how to march is obviously not a priority in the senior member program.  No where are they required to know.  However, knowing the proper wear of a uniform is required of all senior members and cadets.  Thus, if they do not know what a gig line is or how to polish boots (not necessarily to a high mirror shine), then that is the fault of the CoC.  Those are items they should know prior to wearing a uniform or at least before getting promoted to 2d Lt.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

My first squadron commander was not prior military, though admittedly he had been involved in CAP since he was a cadet...about 40 years...he couldn't serve due to a medical condition.  He knew military courtesies inside and out.

My second squadron commander (same squadron) was prior-service Air Force Reserve (nurse) and insisted on uniformity to the nth degree.  One scofflaw who wouldn't even wash his bloody uniform half the time finally got the boom lowered on him...she restricted him to the old "Smurf Suit" for the remaining tenure of her command.

My third commander (same squadron), who also became a very good friend, was not prior service (again, medical condition I think kept him from serving) and was strong on customs, courtesies and uniformity.

I remember a weekend Wing activity on an AFB when we were eating in the dining hall by the grace of the Wing King (mega-good shrimp dinner for $8 and change!).  Some Security Police came by on their evening rounds and sat down to have a cup with us (I always felt honoured when AF personnel did that) and a Staff Sergeant told us, "you CAP folks are sometimes more spit and polish than we are!"

A warm fuzzy like that means more to me than a thousand salutes.

[Alaric]

How do you teach them proper uniform wear while wearing a corporate uniform?  Most seniors not former military or cadet have no idea what a gig line is, or how to march, or polish boots when they join, and unless they are intimately involved with CP they probably won't learn either as it is not a requirement for either PD, or rank promotion.  Could we fix that sure, but until we do, to me there is no difference between teaching uniform wear in the G/W or in the Polo.

The location of accoutrements when compared between the USAF style and Corporate are not far different.  Besides, even though there are differences between the Senior and Cadet uniforms, stressing correct uniform wear is a method of teaching them proper uniform wear. 

Knowing how to march is obviously not a priority in the senior member program.  No where are they required to know.  However, knowing the proper wear of a uniform is required of all senior members and cadets.  Thus, if they do not know what a gig line is or how to polish boots (not necessarily to a high mirror shine), then that is the fault of the CoC.  Those are items they should know prior to wearing a uniform or at least before getting promoted to 2d Lt.

My shoes are polished, my polo shirt and grey slacks are ironed and fit appropriately, my belt is black, as are my socks.  According to 39-1 I am wearing my uniform correctly (presuming the polo shirt is an allowable uniform at the event I am going to).  On those occasions I wear the G/W uniform I also wear it according to the manual, which is still correct uniform wear.  Failing to see your point, and as wear of CAP ribbons and devices are optional on the G/W but not the blue service, the style of the grey slacks are allowed to vary 4.2.5.5. Trousers. Medium gray (solid color). Wool, polyester‐wool blend or polyester‐cotton trousers will be worn and either slim, straight leg or loose fit with or without pleats or cuffs are allowed. so tell me again how this is better?

[Ned]

I did propose a solution, its obviously not one you agree with.

Perhaps you would like to establish a "problem" before proposing a "solution."

(Hint: although there are several ways to define and state problems, a problem is something more than a difference of opinion about what looks "better" / "more professional" or "it looks odd to have two different kinds of uniforms".)

[Alaric]

I did propose a solution, its obviously not one you agree with.

Perhaps you would like to establish a "problem" before proposing a "solution."

(Hint: although there are several ways to define and state problems, a problem is something more than a difference of opinion about what looks "better" / "more professional" or "it looks odd to have two different kinds of uniforms".)

The problem is we do not have a uniform, we have wardrobe options - please see the definition below from Merrian-Webster's online dictionary.  We do not have a clothing option worn by all members of our team.  That is the problem.  My proposed solution - the polo shirt and grey slacks option (with the caveat that we need to define a shade and style of slacks)


3uniform
noun

: a special kind of clothing that is worn by all the members of a group or organization (such as an army or team)
Full Definition of UNIFORM
:  dress of a distinctive design or fashion worn by members of a particular group and serving as a means of identification; broadly :  distinctive or characteristic clothing
1uni·form
adjective \ˈyü-nə-ˌfȯrm\

: not varying or changing : staying the same at all times, in all places, or for all parts or members
Full Definition of UNIFORM
1
:  having always the same form, manner, or degree :  not varying or variable <uniform procedures>
2
:  consistent in conduct or opinion <uniform interpretation of laws>
3
:  of the same form with others :  conforming to one rule or mode :  consonant
4
:  presenting an unvaried appearance of surface, pattern, or color <uniform red brick houses>
5
:  relating to or being convergence of a series whose terms are functions in such manner that the absolute value of the difference between the sum of the first n terms of the series and the sum of all terms can be made arbitrarily small for all values of the domain of the functions by choosing the nth term sufficiently far along in the series

[LSThiker]

Failing to see your point, and as wear of CAP ribbons and devices are optional on the G/W but not the blue service, the style of the grey slacks are allowed to vary 4.2.5.5. Trousers. Medium gray (solid color). Wool, polyester‐wool blend or polyester‐cotton trousers will be worn and either slim, straight leg or loose fit with or without pleats or cuffs are allowed. so tell me again how this is better?

Wear of CAP ribbons are optional on the short-sleeve and long-sleeve service uniforms:

4.1.9.4.2. Ribbons. Ribbons are optional on the blue shirt. If worn, ribbons will be centered, resting on, but not over the edge of the pleated pocket on the wearer's left. For wear and description, see the applicable paragraphs in chapter 11. Adult member ribbons must fall below the front edge of the turn down collar in accordance with instructions found in chapter 11.

They are not optional on the service dress.

The style of grey slacks and their variants are not accoutrements.  So that does not apply to my point, which was that corporate and USAF style placement of accoutrements are relatively the same.

My point is, wearing a uniform similar to your subordinates properly and correctly helps stress that proper wear of the uniform is important.  So while yes, I could easily instruct cadets wearing flip flops and a Hawaiian T, good order and discipline, in my opinion, is lost when seniors involved in the cadet program do not wear anything but the polo shirt.  Even if you do not work directly with cadets, a unit should all be in the same style of uniform (style is meant by Service dress vs. BDU vs Flight Suit vs Polo).

[Shuman 14]

Cardigan is not allowed with grade.   Blue tie is just that, a blue tie, although the description is pretty darn close to USAF  .  There is no visible link to military service.

Silly question, but why a "blue" tie and not a "grey" tie with the G/W ensemble? 

Or a grey blazer coat?

So... grey trousers (check), white shirt (check), black blazer (check), USAF shade blue tie (Huh?!?) 

[Alaric]

Failing to see your point, and as wear of CAP ribbons and devices are optional on the G/W but not the blue service, the style of the grey slacks are allowed to vary 4.2.5.5. Trousers. Medium gray (solid color). Wool, polyester‐wool blend or polyester‐cotton trousers will be worn and either slim, straight leg or loose fit with or without pleats or cuffs are allowed. so tell me again how this is better?

Wear of CAP ribbons are optional on the short-sleeve and long-sleeve service uniforms:

4.1.9.4.2. Ribbons. Ribbons are optional on the blue shirt. If worn, ribbons will be centered, resting on, but not over the edge of the pleated pocket on the wearer's left. For wear and description, see the applicable paragraphs in chapter 11. Adult member ribbons must fall below the front edge of the turn down collar in accordance with instructions found in chapter 11.

They are not optional on the service dress.

The style of grey slacks and their variants are not accoutrements.  So that does not apply to my point, which was that corporate and USAF style placement of accoutrements are relatively the same.

My point is, wearing a uniform similar to your subordinates properly and correctly helps stress that proper wear of the uniform is important.  So while yes, I could easily instruct cadets wearing flip flops and a Hawaiian T, good order and discipline, in my opinion, is lost when seniors involved in the cadet program do not wear anything but the polo shirt.  Even if you do not work directly with cadets, a unit should all be in the same style of uniform (style is meant by Service dress vs. BDU vs Flight Suit vs Polo).

First I only mentioned the service dress, so your point that they are optional on the long and short sleeve shirt doesn't make sense to me.  I also note I have rarely seen cadets not wearing their ribbons. I do not consider the G/W and Blue service uniforms to be similar.  Since I have worn my ribbons and badges (accoutrements) two or three times on my G/W's instructing them in uniform wear while wearing a white aviator's shirt with a name tag and grade epaulets versus in a polo shirt seems to make no difference to me.  If my commander had had an issue, I'm sure he would have said something, he wasn't shy.

[Shuman 14]

Someone needs to come up with an answer, sooner before later.

Why?

Are you being obtuse?

The status quo works for you? 

[Shuman 14]

There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON OTHER THAN HISTORY to wear the AF style uniform. None. Zero. We can perform 100% of all our functions while wearing the CAP distinctive combinations. And this is coming from a guy who will not wear the G/W with a gun pressed to his nads.

I concur, for the most part.

The USAF uniforms are a draw for the cadets and helps with recruitment.

As I've stated before one Corporate Service, Field, and Flying uniform is the way to go.

[Garibaldi]

My point has been made. Lively debate turns sour. Film at 11.

[Storm Chaser]

Cardigan is not allowed with grade.   Blue tie is just that, a blue tie, although the description is pretty darn close to USAF  .  There is no visible link to military service.

Silly question, but why a "blue" tie and not a "grey" tie with the G/W ensemble? 

Or a grey blazer coat?

So... grey trousers (check), white shirt (check), black blazer (check), USAF shade blue tie (Huh?!?) 

Except that the blazer is actually navy blue.

[Eclipse]

My shoes are polished, my polo shirt and grey slacks are ironed and fit appropriately, my belt is black, as are my socks. 

Gilbert just woke up and punched Sullivan.

[Shuman 14]

Ahh, good... thought I missed something with all of the reg changes this year.

shuman14, why are you so fired up about something that doesn't affect you?

Because he's bored and a self admitted TROLL.

You call me a troll because you consider me an "outsider"

No, I call you a troll because YOU even called yourself a troll when asked several months ago why you make so many "pointed" comments.

Cite please.

This was too easy: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13836.msg329301#msg329301

I stand corrected, I didn't remember saying that, thank you.

Tango Four Actual... Acknowledges. 

[LSThiker]

First I only mentioned the service dress, so your point that they are optional on the long and short sleeve shirt doesn't make sense to me.

No you did not say service dress.  You said:

devices are optional on the G/W but not the blue service

Of course, CAPM 39-1 defines, blue service as the "class B" uniform which is the short-sleeve and long-sleeve service uniform and not the service dress uniform:

Service Dress Uniform (Class A)
Blue Service Uniform (Class B)

I also note I have rarely seen cadets not wearing their ribbons. I do not consider the G/W and Blue service uniforms to be similar.  Since I have worn my ribbons and badges (accoutrements) two or three times on my G/W's instructing them in uniform wear while wearing a white aviator's shirt with a name tag and grade epaulets versus in a polo shirt seems to make no difference to me.  If my commander had had an issue, I'm sure he would have said something, he wasn't shy.

Then this is a difference of opinion and not a defined problem. 

[Alaric]

First I only mentioned the service dress, so your point that they are optional on the long and short sleeve shirt doesn't make sense to me.

No you did not say service dress.  You said:

devices are optional on the G/W but not the blue service

Of course, CAPM 39-1 defines, blue service as the "class B" uniform which is the short-sleeve and long-sleeve service uniform and not the service dress uniform:

Service Dress Uniform (Class A)
Blue Service Uniform (Class B)

I also note I have rarely seen cadets not wearing their ribbons. I do not consider the G/W and Blue service uniforms to be similar.  Since I have worn my ribbons and badges (accoutrements) two or three times on my G/W's instructing them in uniform wear while wearing a white aviator's shirt with a name tag and grade epaulets versus in a polo shirt seems to make no difference to me.  If my commander had had an issue, I'm sure he would have said something, he wasn't shy.

Then this is a difference of opinion and not a defined problem.

I stand corrected on the service dress.  The problem is that we don't have a uniform, we have wardrobe options, please see reply 108

[Shuman 14]

Cardigan is not allowed with grade.   Blue tie is just that, a blue tie, although the description is pretty darn close to USAF  .  There is no visible link to military service.

Silly question, but why a "blue" tie and not a "grey" tie with the G/W ensemble? 

Or a grey blazer coat?

So... grey trousers (check), white shirt (check), black blazer (check), USAF shade blue tie (Huh?!?) 

Except that the blazer is actually navy blue.

Oh, I always thought it was black, my bad.

Still, two shades of blue that don't match kinda look "off" to me.