drivel... was: Navy Awards on Cap Uniform

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

1. Every member who desires to wear the AF style uniform HAS TO BE within H/W standards or their commander says nay nay, wear the gray. If the member persists in wearing the AF uniform out of H/W, then they are given two choices: wear the corporate, or lose weight. Since we have upper echelon members (wing/region/national staff) who persist in wearing the AF style uniform, out of H/W regs, and no one checks them at the door, then this problem will not go away any time soon, regs or no regs. Who wants to be the first to tell their Group or Wing CC they are out of compliance?

My former Wing CC enthusiastically wore the CSU.  When that got taken from us, he reluctantly wore the G/W...but at least he did not try to wear a uniform he could not wear due to H/W standards.  I think it is called "setting an example." :clap:

2. The Air Force gets tired of folks showing up wearing a blue potato sack full of bling, or stuffing a 50L person into a 32R flight suit, and says nay nay, we are taking the AF uniform away. Nyah nyah, figure it out. We're done. So, we are forced into the BBDU, the hideous G/W, and the blazer combo until we find something that doesn't make us look like airline pilots or Coasties. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Except that our parent Service still does not practice what they preach in a lot of ways.  I know the standards have been changed since I was in, to percentages/BMI, but I still see not a few Airmen, including some senior NCO's (who, of all people, should know better), who would likely not fit the standards of H/W imposed on CAP.  I believe that is called "do as I say, not as I do." 

I would much, much rather look like an airline pilot, a Coastie (I am a former Auxiliarist and proudly wore their modified uniform), the Bundesluftwaffe, the RAF, the Belarusian Air Force, or an Aeroflot crew member (pictured) than the G/W and blazer.

3. We just bite the bullet and get away from the AF style on our own. There seems to be a movement among some seniors to do this anyway. Do away with every single reference to the military since we are a civilian organization, don't allow military ANYTHING on any "uniform" combination. Do away with the BDU and go with the tac-pants and golf shirt like an EMT, change our uniform to align ourselves more with local SAR agencies. We can still fly AF missions wearing the polo/tac pants, which most air crews I know do anyway.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON OTHER THAN HISTORY to wear the AF style uniform. None. Zero. We can perform 100% of all our functions while wearing the CAP distinctive combinations. And this is coming from a guy who will not wear the G/W with a gun pressed to his nads.

You had me until you said go the golf shirt route.  That again assumes we are to be "all ES, all the time."  I do not, and will not, own a golf shirt.

I begrudgingly wear the G/W because I am out of H/W regs thanks to medication side effects.  I do not wear them with pride.  However, I have no problem with the BBDU/blue flight suit...at least it has some connection to our heritage.

If we choose to get out of the AF uniform, or are forced out of it, if the only alternative is the status quo, well...

[MHC5096]

Check out how the U.S. Naval Sea Cadet Corps addresses the uniform issue with it's adult officer cadre:

http://homeport.seacadets.org/download/attachments/589947/Information+Letter+01-14+-+2013+Officer+Promotions.pdf?version=1&modificationDate=1388604711000

Pay particular attention to #3 and the "Alternate Uniform" notation under caveat on the promotion list.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

There is also an alternative blazer set for the USCGAUX - basically a blue blazer with a bullion USCGAUX crest fastened to it.

During my years in the Aux, I saw that kit worn by a grand total of one person.

I live in a city with a VERY active NSCC presence and I do not see the strictness that the AF imposes on CAP.  I had a talk with a USNSCC Ensign informally some years ago.  He was in BDU's with subdued grade insignia and tapes.

He said "I don't get what the Air Force's problem is with you guys looking like them."

[Alaric]

You had me until you said go the golf shirt route.  That again assumes we are to be "all ES, all the time."  I do not, and will not, own a golf shirt.

I begrudgingly wear the G/W because I am out of H/W regs thanks to medication side effects.  I do not wear them with pride.  However, I have no problem with the BBDU/blue flight suit...at least it has some connection to our heritage.

If we choose to get out of the AF uniform, or are forced out of it, if the only alternative is the status quo, well...

What in AE or CP could not be done by a senior member wearing the Polo?  I was a DCC and wore a polo all the time.  Most school teachers I've seen these days wear polos so problems with AE?  Of all the 3 missions ground team/UDF (part of ES) is least suitable for the Polo.    The advantage of going polo only seem to far outweigh the disadvantages.  Especially as the alternative we have treats a large portion of the membership differently (for those who care about wearing their awards).  It would be uniform, and isn't that the point of a uniform policy? 

[Bluelakes 13]

What in AE or CP could not be done by a senior member wearing the Polo?  I was a DCC and wore a polo all the time.  Most school teachers I've seen these days wear polos so problems with AE?  Of all the 3 missions ground team/UDF (part of ES) is least suitable for the Polo.    The advantage of going polo only seem to far outweigh the disadvantages.  Especially as the alternative we have treats a large portion of the membership differently (for those who care about wearing their awards).  It would be uniform, and isn't that the point of a uniform policy?

:clap:

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Personal taste.

I simply do not like the polo shirt.

I don't know...maybe it goes back to high school when the "in-crowd" were the preppies who wore the horrendous little Izod alligator shirts.

This was the mid '80s; think of the movie "Valley Girl" and the character played by Michael Bowen.  I was much more like Nic Cage's character, with more leather.



(OK, that isn't me, but a very close facsimile, even though I don't have the hair anymore).

It could be a Pavlovian response based on my experience with "golf shirted" guys in my early years.

[Garibaldi]

I have a polo. It currently resides in a plastic tote along with the gray slacks I never wear. If the time comes, and we go polo/tac pants, I will drag it out and begrudgingly wear it. Begrudgingly. I have worn it a grand total of 4 times since I ordered it 2 years ago. As mentioned, I won't wear it again until forced into it. I WILL lose more weight so I look good and conform to H/W better.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Or maybe I am just a dinosaur who is proud of our history and association with the Air Force, which seem increasingly irrelevant as time goes on, and who is unwilling to smell the corporate coffee.

[Garibaldi]

Or maybe I am just a dinosaur who is proud of our history and association with the Air Force, which seem increasingly irrelevant as time goes on, and who is unwilling to smell the corporate coffee.

The coffee is full of the Kool-Aid. And so are the donuts.

[Ned]

What in AE or CP could not be done by a senior member wearing the Polo? 

You've got something there.

What in AE or CP actually requires even a polo for a senior member?  Heck, they can teach, supervise, and do administrative support wearing jeans and a t-shirt. 

Who's gonna try to tell me that any officer is somehow less knowledgeable or wise just because they are not wearing a uniform at that moment? 

Great teachers can teach, mentor, and coach cadets wearing flip flops and yoga pants.  Anyone who says otherwise is just some sort of wannabe pretender who has never actually taught, mentored, or coached effectively.

Come to think of it, why even have cadets in uniforms?  They can certainly learn wearing shorts and tank tops - that's what they're wearing in school anyway.  Who can prove to me that wearing a uniform somehow makes somebody learn better?

Why make them come to meetings?  Who can prove that we cannot provide the same leadership skills, character development, and AE curricula via distance learning?  Books are books, right?

Who thinks that rhetorical questions are easier than identifying actual problems, proposing solutions, and evaluating alternatives in order to reach a consensus?

[LSThiker]

I have a polo. It currently resides in a plastic tote along with the gray slacks I never wear.  I have worn it a grand total of 4 times since I ordered it 2 years ago. As mentioned, I won't wear it again until forced into it.

I have a polo.  I will not wear it in front of cadets or at regular meetings.  I only wear it if I am interviewing the public for the purpose of history, sitting in archives/library, have to go for a long drive in a corporate vehicle, or informal wing staff meetings.  While the service uniform would like nice, I have found that in my neck of the woods, the public is more open to non-uniform types.  YMMV. 

[Eclipse]

What in AE or CP could not be done by a senior member wearing the Polo?

Anything "formal" for starters, not to mention the credibility of inspecting cadets, etc.

Nothing says "Pass In Review" like the golf shirt.

I'd see no issue on the ES or the AE side, but the CP has proper uniform wear as a tenant of the
program including being considered for promotions.

[Garibaldi]

What in AE or CP could not be done by a senior member wearing the Polo? 

You've got something there.

What in AE or CP actually requires even a polo for a senior member?  Heck, they can teach, supervise, and do administrative support wearing jeans and a t-shirt. 

Who's gonna try to tell me that any officer is somehow less knowledgeable or wise just because they are not wearing a uniform at that moment? 

Great teachers can teach, mentor, and coach cadets wearing flip flops and yoga pants.  Anyone who says otherwise is just some sort of wannabe pretender who has never actually taught, mentored, or coached effectively.

Come to think of it, why even have cadets in uniforms?  They can certainly learn wearing shorts and tank tops - that's what they're wearing in school anyway.  Who can prove to me that wearing a uniform somehow makes somebody learn better?

Why make them come to meetings?  Who can prove that we cannot provide the same leadership skills, character development, and AE curricula via distance learning?  Books are books, right?

Who thinks that rhetorical questions are easier than identifying actual problems, proposing solutions, and evaluating alternatives in order to reach a consensus?

Ehhhhhhh you had me going there for a minute...

Seriously, though, you do have a point, sir. What do we really NEED with a uniform? What has it really done for us? Recently, it's caused us heartburn and anger due to the myriad regulation changes and back-and-forths between the two camps (Pro-AF style and Pro-corporate).

Personally, I wear the AF style because that is what I grew up in, and that's the way I was taught. I have possibly the best-groomed and best-uniformed cadets in the group because I care enough about MY personal uniform appearance and pass that along to the cadets in my charge.

Alaric is correct, to an extent. AE/CP CAN be accomplished by seniors in the corporate uniform, or in the polo, or in shorts and flip flops. But why? How are you going to teach someone to wear their uniform properly if you can't? Or choose to wear something undefinable by a uniform standard? Polo shirts and tac pants don't lend themselves to a "military" appearance to cadets. They understand marching and gig lines and shined boots and saluting. They don't know about the choices we have between AF and CAP style. Cadets have asked me time and time again "do I have to salute Lt Poloshirt? He is a lieutenant, but is it a "real" uniform he's wearing?" The only seniors in my unit who wear the AF style are me, the DCC, the CC, and occasionally the comm officer. Everyone else wears the polo or the G/W, for reasons ranging from "it's easy to throw on the polo at work on the way out rather than change" to cost, grooming, or other personal choices. Cadets will respect the person in whatever combo they are wearing, but a little more so if they are in uniform and display proper customs and courtesies. A little.

I guess it doesn't matter if you have long hair and a beard, wearing surf shorts and flip flops to meetings. If you know your s***, the cadets will listen. I used to think the other way, that appearance is 60% of respect over knowledge, but some of the best dressed teachers (civilian and military and CAP) I've encountered don't know jack. Including me, some of the times.

[Alaric]

What in AE or CP could not be done by a senior member wearing the Polo?

Anything "formal" for starters, not to mention the credibility of inspecting cadets, etc.

Nothing says "Pass In Review" like the golf shirt.

I'd see no issue on the ES or the AE side, but the CP has proper uniform wear as a tenant of the
program including being considered for promotions.

Using that logic no one that cannot wear the AF Style uniform should be involved with CP. 

[Alaric]

What in AE or CP could not be done by a senior member wearing the Polo? 

You've got something there.

What in AE or CP actually requires even a polo for a senior member?  Heck, they can teach, supervise, and do administrative support wearing jeans and a t-shirt. 

Who's gonna try to tell me that any officer is somehow less knowledgeable or wise just because they are not wearing a uniform at that moment? 

Great teachers can teach, mentor, and coach cadets wearing flip flops and yoga pants.  Anyone who says otherwise is just some sort of wannabe pretender who has never actually taught, mentored, or coached effectively.

Come to think of it, why even have cadets in uniforms?  They can certainly learn wearing shorts and tank tops - that's what they're wearing in school anyway.  Who can prove to me that wearing a uniform somehow makes somebody learn better?

Why make them come to meetings?  Who can prove that we cannot provide the same leadership skills, character development, and AE curricula via distance learning?  Books are books, right?

Who thinks that rhetorical questions are easier than identifying actual problems, proposing solutions, and evaluating alternatives in order to reach a consensus?

I did propose a solution, its obviously not one you agree with.   

[Alaric]

What in AE or CP could not be done by a senior member wearing the Polo? 

You've got something there.

What in AE or CP actually requires even a polo for a senior member?  Heck, they can teach, supervise, and do administrative support wearing jeans and a t-shirt. 

Who's gonna try to tell me that any officer is somehow less knowledgeable or wise just because they are not wearing a uniform at that moment? 

Great teachers can teach, mentor, and coach cadets wearing flip flops and yoga pants.  Anyone who says otherwise is just some sort of wannabe pretender who has never actually taught, mentored, or coached effectively.

Come to think of it, why even have cadets in uniforms?  They can certainly learn wearing shorts and tank tops - that's what they're wearing in school anyway.  Who can prove to me that wearing a uniform somehow makes somebody learn better?

Why make them come to meetings?  Who can prove that we cannot provide the same leadership skills, character development, and AE curricula via distance learning?  Books are books, right?

Who thinks that rhetorical questions are easier than identifying actual problems, proposing solutions, and evaluating alternatives in order to reach a consensus?

Ehhhhhhh you had me going there for a minute...

Seriously, though, you do have a point, sir. What do we really NEED with a uniform? What has it really done for us? Recently, it's caused us heartburn and anger due to the myriad regulation changes and back-and-forths between the two camps (Pro-AF style and Pro-corporate).

Personally, I wear the AF style because that is what I grew up in, and that's the way I was taught. I have possibly the best-groomed and best-uniformed cadets in the group because I care enough about MY personal uniform appearance and pass that along to the cadets in my charge.

Alaric is correct, to an extent. AE/CP CAN be accomplished by seniors in the corporate uniform, or in the polo, or in shorts and flip flops. But why? How are you going to teach someone to wear their uniform properly if you can't? Or choose to wear something undefinable by a uniform standard? Polo shirts and tac pants don't lend themselves to a "military" appearance to cadets. They understand marching and gig lines and shined boots and saluting. They don't know about the choices we have between AF and CAP style. Cadets have asked me time and time again "do I have to salute Lt Poloshirt? He is a lieutenant, but is it a "real" uniform he's wearing?" The only seniors in my unit who wear the AF style are me, the DCC, the CC, and occasionally the comm officer. Everyone else wears the polo or the G/W, for reasons ranging from "it's easy to throw on the polo at work on the way out rather than change" to cost, grooming, or other personal choices. Cadets will respect the person in whatever combo they are wearing, but a little more so if they are in uniform and display proper customs and courtesies. A little.

I guess it doesn't matter if you have long hair and a beard, wearing surf shorts and flip flops to meetings. If you know your s***, the cadets will listen. I used to think the other way, that appearance is 60% of respect over knowledge, but some of the best dressed teachers (civilian and military and CAP) I've encountered don't know jack. Including me, some of the times.

How do you teach them proper uniform wear while wearing a corporate uniform?  Most seniors not former military or cadet have no idea what a gig line is, or how to march, or polish boots when they join, and unless they are intimately involved with CP they probably won't learn either as it is not a requirement for either PD, or rank promotion.  Could we fix that sure, but until we do, to me there is no difference between teaching uniform wear in the G/W or in the Polo.

[SarDragon]

Ahh, good... thought I missed something with all of the reg changes this year.

shuman14, why are you so fired up about something that doesn't affect you?

Because he's bored and a self admitted TROLL.

You call me a troll because you consider me an "outsider"

No, I call you a troll because YOU even called yourself a troll when asked several months ago why you make so many "pointed" comments.

Cite please.

This was too easy: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13836.msg329301#msg329301

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Most seniors not former military or cadet have no idea what a gig line is, or how to march, or polish boots when they join, and unless they are intimately involved with CP they probably won't learn either as it is not a requirement for either PD, or rank promotion.  Could we fix that sure, but until we do, to me there is no difference between teaching uniform wear in the G/W or in the Polo.

I already knew drill, customs, courtesies etc...but in my first (best) squadron (composite), knowledge of the things you cite was a squadron prerequisite for passing Level I.  And we were tested on it, by a squadron member who was also an NCO in the Air Force Reserve.

At every meeting we assembled in the drill hall - cadets AND seniors - and formally reported in.

We were at an Armed Forces Reserve Centre with National Guard, Navy Reserve, NSCC and Marine Reserve, and it was impressed upon us that we show them proper courtesies.  It was "Good morning, Petty Officer" or "Good evening, Sergeant"...not "Hi, Jim!" or "How's it going, Joe?"

We all wore the AF blue and were held to standards.  I never saw a grey uniform until my first Wing activity, and it was the old-style "no-frills" uniform.  I thought the polo shirt was for casual, off-duty use.  No kidding.

When I moved and transferred to a senior squadron, boy, did I get a culture shock.  It stunned me to hear a 2nd Lieutenant address a Lt. Colonel as "Hey, Tim!" (not the Colonel's real name).

Like I say, I think I am increasingly a dinosaur in this "corporate" age.

[Alaric]

What in AE or CP could not be done by a senior member wearing the Polo? 

You've got something there.

What in AE or CP actually requires even a polo for a senior member?  Heck, they can teach, supervise, and do administrative support wearing jeans and a t-shirt. 

Who's gonna try to tell me that any officer is somehow less knowledgeable or wise just because they are not wearing a uniform at that moment? 

Great teachers can teach, mentor, and coach cadets wearing flip flops and yoga pants.  Anyone who says otherwise is just some sort of wannabe pretender who has never actually taught, mentored, or coached effectively.

Come to think of it, why even have cadets in uniforms?  They can certainly learn wearing shorts and tank tops - that's what they're wearing in school anyway.  Who can prove to me that wearing a uniform somehow makes somebody learn better?

Why make them come to meetings?  Who can prove that we cannot provide the same leadership skills, character development, and AE curricula via distance learning?  Books are books, right?

Who thinks that rhetorical questions are easier than identifying actual problems, proposing solutions, and evaluating alternatives in order to reach a consensus?

Also, had you read my post and the post I was quoting you would have seen my question was a response to post #86 where CyBorg made the comment that the polo shirt uniform was an indication of an all ES, all the time mindset.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Also, had you read my post and the post I was quoting you would have seen my question was a response to post #86 where CyBorg made the comment that the polo shirt uniform was an indication of an all ES, all the time mindset.

Where I get a lot of that from is from a now-banned member called RADIOMAN15 who ardently, and forcefully, advocated that we drop uniforms, and that CP/AE were not relevant, and (his favourite line):

"After all, we are the CIVIL Air Patrol."

I personally know people like that in CAP - not as extreme, but they are there.