drivel... was: Navy Awards on Cap Uniform

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

And...at risk of overstating the obvious, CAP is not a Regiment.  Why we tried to stick this bit of Imperial nomenclature in one of our **distinctively civilian** un-uniforms is beyond me.

Years ago I visited the Museum of the Royal Canadian Regiment in London, Ontario.  I learnt a lot about British/Commonwealth Regimental systems there.

http://thercr.ca/main/index.php/the-rcr-museum-new

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/uk-army-regimental-system.htm

For the life of me, I cannot see where CAP fits into that.

[Garp]

I feel like attempts at finding fault with this is getting a little ridiculous...regimental/club/school ties are common all over the place. I have four for various organizations other than CAP at home.

  http://www.vineyardvines.com/silk-ties/college/Ties-College-Ties,default,sc.html

http://www.shop4ties.com/yacht_club_ties.php

As far as the Brigade of Guards, the colors are similar, although the red is different, the stripes are differently sized, and stripes on British ties run opposite to American so no opportunities for confusion.

[Ned]

stripes on British ties run opposite to American so no opportunities for confusion.

But what if one was in the Gentleman's Lounge at the club and a peckish Guardsman looked at our tie in the mirror?

Could it not be the start of a major international incident?

Please discuss the ORM implications of this uniform item.


To death

[Garp]

I feel like attempts at finding fault with this are getting a little ridiculous...regimental/club/school ties are common all over the place. I have four for various organizations other than CAP at home.

  http://www.vineyardvines.com/silk-ties/college/Ties-College-Ties,default,sc.html

http://www.shop4ties.com/yacht_club_ties.php

As far as the Brigade of Guards, the colors are similar, although the red is different, the stripes are differently sized, and stripes on British ties run opposite to American so no opportunities for confusion.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Wow!!! So Ned has a sense of humor!

...discuss...ORM.... To death

[Eclipse]

Please discuss the ORM implications of this uniform item.

Those wearing it have a significantly higher risk of wedgie, in depending on conditions, it may even be atomic.

[PHall]

Wow!!! So Ned has a sense of humor!

...discuss...ORM.... To death

More then you will ever know.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Hmmm! He almost never shows it in here so I had to post that.

Lighten up! You don't have to defend him, he does know how to take care of himself!!!

And no, I don't care to know him other than as a corporate colleague...

[PHall]

Those who know the man think he is one of the funnyist people around.
But if all you do is confront him, you'll never see his funny side.
Just sayin'.

[SarDragon]

Hmmm! He almost never shows it in here so I had to post that.

Lighten up! You don't have to defend him, he does know how to take care of himself!!!

And no, I don't care to know him other than as a corporate colleague...

If you never get to meet Ned, you will be missing out a good experience.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I would welcome the opportunity.  He and I have had differences of opinion here on CT, but persons of good will can disagree and still find common ground.

[Luis R. Ramos]

J have no doubt he is a very caring person, he shows it with his attitude here. A great guy with his dedication. I will keep my options open...

[Panache]

But what if one was in the Gentleman's Lounge at the club and a peckish Guardsman looked at our tie in the mirror?

Could it not be the start of a major international incident?

I'm more concerned that Airman Billy may get me confused for a member of Slytherin House.

[Shuman 14]

Ahh, good... thought I missed something with all of the reg changes this year.

shuman14, why are you so fired up about something that doesn't affect you?

Because he's bored and a self admitted TROLL.

You call me a troll because you consider me an "outsider"

No, I call you a troll because YOU even called yourself a troll when asked several months ago why you make so many "pointed" comments.

Cite please.

[Shuman 14]

Perhaps this makes me a terrible commander, who picks and chooses what suits my needs.  But Ive had members who were a little plump fit nicely in to the USAF uniform.  But they still looked good, pressed, cleaned, shined, haircut.   I never said a thing about it.  Yes...... I should have been stripped of all command responsibility    I was more concerned that they were contributing members.

I'm convinced that most of this issue would never even be an issue in the first place even by allowing people outside of standards to wear the USAF uniform, but for one point. By the way, it's the same point that causes people to comment now upon seeing people noticeably not meeting the standards.

Simply put, it's all about....fit. Not being fit, although that would be nice. Even simpler than that - we wouldn't have ended up in this ridiculous "dualiform" situation had there been insistence in people wearing uniforms that fit.

As the (modified) saying goes - you can't put 20 pounds of rice in a 10 pound sack.

The appearance problem isn't because a guy has a large waist. It's a problem when a guy with a large waist tries to shovel himself into a pair of trousers or a shirt two sizes two small. It's a CAP problem of long standing.

Our definition of "new uniform" is different than the definition used by service members. We wear them maybe 50-70 times per year for literally hours at a time. So, the uniforms that only have been worn 6 hours per month are still relatively "new" well into 12-18 months later. But, if the owner has added 10-20 pounds in that same period of time, the uniform no longer fits. "Next time I buy uniforms for CAP, I'm gonna have to buy a bigger size. Or maybe I should go on Atkins. Or do some sit-ups or something. Oops, gonna be late for the squadron meeting..." The Atkins and sit-ups get forgotten, and the "next time" for buying uniforms is another 12 months out ("They're in great shape, no need to replace them.") Meanwhile, the guy has added another 10 pounds.

If there was a way to hold people to wearing USAF uniforms in their ACTUAL size, the image problem would be improved far greater than sending those people into G/Ws (many of which get outgrown and not replaced already, simply transferring the problem).

The appropriate standard should not be "If you can get into it, wear it" as we have all seen people do. The standard should be "If it actually fits, you may wear it."

Well, even volunteer Fire Departments and Reserve (i.e. volunteer) Police Officers have certain fitness standards to maintain... could not be so for CAP?

Maybe the answer is if you cannot pass a fitness test and/or height/weight (or Bodyfat) then you should be prevented from wearing all uniforms except a polo shirt and slacks combo.

If a mission requires a uniform other than that, you can not conduct it.

Will that be the answer? Most likely not, as CAP would lose too many members.

BUT

Someone needs to come up with an answer, sooner before later.

[Shuman 14]

Cardigan is not allowed with grade.   Blue tie is just that, a blue tie, although the description is pretty darn close to USAF  .  There is no visible link to military service.

Silly question, but why a "blue" tie and not a "grey" tie with the G/W ensemble? 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Cardigan is not allowed with grade.   Blue tie is just that, a blue tie, although the description is pretty darn close to USAF  .  There is no visible link to military service.

Silly question, but why a "blue" tie and not a "grey" tie with the G/W ensemble? 

Or a grey blazer coat?

[arajca]

Well, even volunteer Fire Departments and Reserve (i.e. volunteer) Police Officers have certain fitness standards to maintain... could not be so for CAP?

Those standards are based on the duties those folks are required to perform. They typically do not have a weight standard. What would the duty fitness standards be for a typical, CAP non-ES member?

[Garp]

Someone needs to come up with an answer, sooner before later.

Why?

[Garibaldi]

Perhaps this makes me a terrible commander, who picks and chooses what suits my needs.  But Ive had members who were a little plump fit nicely in to the USAF uniform.  But they still looked good, pressed, cleaned, shined, haircut.   I never said a thing about it.  Yes...... I should have been stripped of all command responsibility    I was more concerned that they were contributing members.

I'm convinced that most of this issue would never even be an issue in the first place even by allowing people outside of standards to wear the USAF uniform, but for one point. By the way, it's the same point that causes people to comment now upon seeing people noticeably not meeting the standards.

Simply put, it's all about....fit. Not being fit, although that would be nice. Even simpler than that - we wouldn't have ended up in this ridiculous "dualiform" situation had there been insistence in people wearing uniforms that fit.

As the (modified) saying goes - you can't put 20 pounds of rice in a 10 pound sack.

The appearance problem isn't because a guy has a large waist. It's a problem when a guy with a large waist tries to shovel himself into a pair of trousers or a shirt two sizes two small. It's a CAP problem of long standing.

Our definition of "new uniform" is different than the definition used by service members. We wear them maybe 50-70 times per year for literally hours at a time. So, the uniforms that only have been worn 6 hours per month are still relatively "new" well into 12-18 months later. But, if the owner has added 10-20 pounds in that same period of time, the uniform no longer fits. "Next time I buy uniforms for CAP, I'm gonna have to buy a bigger size. Or maybe I should go on Atkins. Or do some sit-ups or something. Oops, gonna be late for the squadron meeting..." The Atkins and sit-ups get forgotten, and the "next time" for buying uniforms is another 12 months out ("They're in great shape, no need to replace them.") Meanwhile, the guy has added another 10 pounds.

If there was a way to hold people to wearing USAF uniforms in their ACTUAL size, the image problem would be improved far greater than sending those people into G/Ws (many of which get outgrown and not replaced already, simply transferring the problem).

The appropriate standard should not be "If you can get into it, wear it" as we have all seen people do. The standard should be "If it actually fits, you may wear it."

Well, even volunteer Fire Departments and Reserve (i.e. volunteer) Police Officers have certain fitness standards to maintain... could not be so for CAP?

Maybe the answer is if you cannot pass a fitness test and/or height/weight (or Bodyfat) then you should be prevented from wearing all uniforms except a polo shirt and slacks combo.

If a mission requires a uniform other than that, you can not conduct it.

Will that be the answer? Most likely not, as CAP would lose too many members.

BUT

Someone needs to come up with an answer, sooner before later.

The possible solutions are these:

1. Every member who desires to wear the AF style uniform HAS TO BE within H/W standards or their commander says nay nay, wear the gray. If the member persists in wearing the AF uniform out of H/W, then they are given two choices: wear the corporate, or lose weight. Since we have upper echelon members (wing/region/national staff) who persist in wearing the AF style uniform, out of H/W regs, and no one checks them at the door, then this problem will not go away any time soon, regs or no regs. Who wants to be the first to tell their Group or Wing CC they are out of compliance?

2. The Air Force gets tired of folks showing up wearing a blue potato sack full of bling, or stuffing a 50L person into a 32R flight suit, and says nay nay, we are taking the AF uniform away. Nyah nyah, figure it out. We're done. So, we are forced into the BBDU, the hideous G/W, and the blazer combo until we find something that doesn't make us look like airline pilots or Coasties. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

3. We just bite the bullet and get away from the AF style on our own. There seems to be a movement among some seniors to do this anyway. Do away with every single reference to the military since we are a civilian organization, don't allow military ANYTHING on any "uniform" combination. Do away with the BDU and go with the tac-pants and golf shirt like an EMT, change our uniform to align ourselves more with local SAR agencies. We can still fly AF missions wearing the polo/tac pants, which most air crews I know do anyway.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON OTHER THAN HISTORY to wear the AF style uniform. None. Zero. We can perform 100% of all our functions while wearing the CAP distinctive combinations. And this is coming from a guy who will not wear the G/W with a gun pressed to his nads.