Uniform policies if NAT/CC

[Storm Chaser]

Ned, well said. I agree 100%.

[Shuman 14]

So, we are not even sure that there is a significant problem in the first place. 

[Alaric]

So, we are not even sure that there is a significant problem in the first place. 

Whatever you are trying to show isn't

[Eclipse]

It is a commander's mandate to enforce the regulations, as written, without filter.

When they fail to do so, it is the next higher HQ's mandate to either induce the failing CC to do their job or replace them.

Further, a commander of a given echelon is personally responsible for the mandate of all of their subordinate commanders.

A unit CC, failing his mandate, is ultimately the responsibility of the national CC to fix, because ultimately all 5 clicks have
failed or abdicated.

The way the National CC fixes the problem is first and foremost by example, in both his personal behavior and in his dealing
with subordinates, and second by either inducement or replacement of those in his span of control until such time as
compliance is achieved.

So, Bob, in your world, how many uniform violations in a given unit are required to define the commander as having "failed their mandate" and have to be fired?

One?  Three?  A dozen?

Does the size of the unit matter?  (Does the wing commander get fired because a single new cadet wore her/his uniform improperly?)

While we agree that commanders have a responsibility to enforce uniform regulations, we may well disagree signifcantly on how to measure success in this area.  You seem to suggest that "regulations are regulations, and any discrepancy is a violation, and any violation means the commander has 'failed.'"

If that is really your position, it seems rather unhelpful.  One of those "perfection is the enemy of success" situations.  It actually begins to sound like a "zero defects leadership" paradigm which has been pretty thoroughly discredited, particularly by the armed forces.

Quite frankly I am shocked at Ned's point of view that this problem should not be addressed by some sort of NHQ action and that squadron commanders, on their own (and despite any inclination to do it in the past on a large scale), will fix it.  Yes, the more explicit language about weigh-ins will give a tool to those who actually care, but not many fit in that category.

Initially, it sounds like you shock pretty easily.  But if it helps ease your discomfort, this is not even close to my position(s) on the matter at hand.  If it helps, I'll recap:

1.  No one had been able to clearly articulate the scope of the "uniform compliance problem" beyond anecdotal observations like "I say some really big guys at wing conference.  No way that they were in height / weight." Or "Even some of the senior leaders may be out of standard.  Look, here's a picture from 2009 - the guy in the back row looks too large."   

So, we are not even sure that there is a significant problem in the first place.  And it is probably not helpful to say things like "any uniform violations are a problem that the senior leadership needs to focus on."

2.  Even if we could get some sense of how many members actually have significant uniform violations, here on CAP Talk we probably won't be able to agree on what a "good rate of compliance" would be.  If 95% of the membership meets the standards are we doing a good job or a bad job?  98%?  90%?  Does it really have to be 100% or nothing?

3. Local unit commanders have all of the guidance, authority, and tools they need to enforce the uniform regulations.  If a commander wants to have a weigh-in, they can have a weigh-in.  If all they need is to have a "difficult conversation," then they can and should do so.

4.  All of us share a responsibility to help each other look professional.  I appreciate it when others remind me that I can't wear my Guyaberra shirt any more, or that my IACE ribbon is outdated.  Indeed, we are shirking our duties when we walk by someone at the wing conference who needs some help.  It is hypocritical for each of us to complain about those "other people" if we had an opportunity to help, but did not.  It is all too easy for 'arm chair generals" and Monday-morning quarterbacks to yelp about how "those guys" at higher aren't doing their jobs, when all it would take is literally 10 seconds of our time to help a member wear their uniform properly.

5. Be extremely careful what you wish for.  Every single one of us who complains about having to watch safety powerpoints instead of doing meaningful training should think not twice, but at least three times, before asking "higher" to "do something about the uniform problem."

Restated, there is nothing to suggest that anything done from above could measurably improve uniform wear beyond what can and should be done in the local units where well over 95% of the membership resides.  And some substantial experience to suggest that any such efforts -- however well intended -- may well result in tedious briefings, on line "education," and mandatory classes.  And since the great majority of members already wear their uniforms correctly, it will all be a wasted effort for the (pick a number) 80%, 90%, 95% of the membership.

6.  If you insist that Gen Carr needs to focus additional command emphasis on uniform compliance, you are going to need to identify what items he can take off his plate.  If we are raising the time and efforts devoted to uniform compliance by Gen Carr and his staff, exactly what items should they begin to ignore?  I've never met a commander or staff officer who reacted well to "do more with less.  Here's an 'additional #1 priority' for you.  But be sure to keep  doing everything else you are doing."

So, the short version is "While there are undoubtedly members who wear their uniforms improperly, there is nothing beyond anecdotal evidence to suggest that this is a significant problem that affects our ability to perform our missions or to recruit and train our members as we always have.  Even if we could establish that it was a problem, intervention by NHQ is among the most "unlikely to be successful" solutions for several reasons, including the 3-4 echelons between Gen Carr and Joe/Josephine Pilot and our substantial history of bureaocratic responses to similar issues in the past."

(And remember, I personnally support weigh-ins.  I drafted the language that was included in a (non-approved) draft of the 39-1.  Heck, I've even conducted weigh-ins at an NCSA.)

Rhetoric, Deflection, Excuses, & Abdication.

"First, pretend there is no problem, then acknowledge the problem but minimize the importance, then admit it is too big to fix, so just hope no one notices."

[Storm Chaser]

Maybe the BoG needs to start visiting units and doing spot uniform inspections.  After all, they're ultimately "responsible for the mandate of all of their subordinate commanders."

[Storm Chaser]

We know CAP has a problem; it's had it for years. But frankly, many (if not most) uniform infractions are due to ignorance (not that that's an excuse), not malice. Most commanders have a full plate as it is and, as much as they would like to fix every single uniform issue within their command, it's virtually impossible to get 100% compliance. That's not the same as abdicating their responsibility.

Ultimately, this is not just the commander's responsibility. Every member needs to do their part to ensure we comply with our regulations and present a professional image. After all, most of us are not just members, but officers (and NCOs). That has to mean something.

[Eclipse]

^ That sounds very good on a t-shirt and has been demonstrated not to work in practice.

[SunDog]

They'd get lost driving to the unit. . .or be late, having stopped to re-do an ORM form, on account of it got dark. Having driven past midnight, one of them would fall out of safety currency, requiring the offender to leave the vehicle. . .the unfortunate soul, abandoned on a dark country road, straining to read the applicable CAP Reg on his smart phone, steps onto the tarmac and is cut down by a passing CAP van.  Driven by a CAP mom, she can't stop and render aid, as the other occupants include two male cadets, and a lone female cadet. Convicted of felony idiocy, she is 2B'ed, and as she is the last female SM, the unit CP program implodes, and the CC is fired. The D/CC is lost to a fatal paper cut while assembling a SUI binder. The Safety Officer, despondent, takes to binge eating, grows too stout for his AF blues, and hangs himself with a cord fashioned from strips torn from a polo shirt. The unit disolves, and NHQ releases a Polo Shirt Safety course to help prevent another such train of tragedy.  After a few years, the squadron's pilots notice the unit no longer exists, but are able to shrug it off and keep flying.

[Storm Chaser]

^ That sounds very good on a t-shirt and has been demonstrated not to work in practice.

So what do you propose? To fire everyone, since apparently no one is doing their jobs?

[SunDog]

Eclipse wants people to do the right thing, and face consequnces if they don't.  Ned and NHQ want to keep members.

Those can be mutually exclusive to a degree - it's a volunteer club you gotta pay to join.  And it has a real need to appear at least as professional as the ARC or local VFD.

CC sends someone home for being fat in blues, maybe he comes back. Maybe not.  Might have been smart to start moving away from the military style uniforms a long while back, for SMs, anyway.

Not rip the blues off snyones back, but grandfather and ohase the AF out over a long stretch. . .

[Eclipse]

^ That sounds very good on a t-shirt and has been demonstrated not to work in practice.

So what do you propose? To fire everyone, since apparently no one is doing their jobs?

Is is even possible anymore for people not to go from one extreme to another?

There's a world of pendulum swing from "ignore / do nothing" to "fire everyone" and the
swing starts when you do >something<>

Seriously, you, Ned, and couple others are responding like cadets reading from the pamphlet
when you ask them what they are supposed to do on CAC - we all know what the regs say
is >supposed< to happen, but it is easily demonstrated that those things >aren't happening.

Pretending CAP operates anywhere near the textbooks won't fix anything.

[Eclipse]

Eclipse wants people to do the right thing, and face consequnces if they don't.  Ned and NHQ want to keep members.

That pretty much sums it up.

You know Sundog, you and I have gone at it pretty good, and I was thinking this morning that a lot of times
the intensity of my disagreement isn't because what you say isn't happening, but because it's true and
I don't want it to be.

[Storm Chaser]

^ That sounds very good on a t-shirt and has been demonstrated not to work in practice.

So what do you propose? To fire everyone, since apparently no one is doing their jobs?

Is is even possible anymore for people not to go from one extreme to another?

There's a world of pendulum swing from "ignore / do nothing" to "fire everyone" and the
swing starts when you do >something<>

Seriously, you, Ned, and couple others are responding like cadets reading from the pamphlet
when you ask them what they are supposed to do on CAC - we all know what the regs say
is >supposed< to happen, but it is easily demonstrated that those things >aren't happening.

Pretending CAP operates anywhere near the textbooks won't fix anything.

And all you do is complain about everything. Unlike you, I do the best I can to improve things in my AOR. I also help other members, staff officers and commanders as much as I can. I don't blame others or put the responsibility elsewhere. I haven't given up. I'm a CAP officer and I take responsibility as such. Do you?

(And by the way, you can put that on a t-shirt.)

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I wouldn't say that CAP doesn't make hard decisions that hurt/demoralise/otherwise piss off the membership.

After all - and I'm saying this because this is still nominally a uniform thread - CAP had no compunctions about taking the (generally) popular CSU away, with nary a word of explanation, and then sticking ever more firmly with a status quo "corporate" uniform that is disliked by not a few members of CAP.  This maintains the division of the "cans" who can wear the AF type uniform and the "cannots" who can't...and don't even look like members of the same organisation.

Yes, Master Sergeant Harris, I know they weren't REQUIRED to do so and the opinion of a worker-bee Captain does not mean sweet shinola when compared to the august personages who made the "decision."

CAP has a very schizoid collective personality - those who want to receive funding from the Air Force, fly on their nickel but don't want them "interfering" in the operations of a "volunteer organisation" and don't think we should wear "their" uniforms...and those who want to receive funding from the Air Force, believe it an honour to be associated with them, are proud that we can wear a modified version of "their" uniform and want closer integration with them.

I wonder if the two can ever be reconciled.

[Eclipse]

And all you do is complain about everything. Unlike you, I do the best I can to improve things in my AOR. I also help other members, staff officers and commanders as much as I can. I don't blame others or put the responsibility elsewhere. I haven't given up. I'm a CAP officer and I take responsibility as such. Do you?

(And by the way, you can put that on a t-shirt.)

You literally have no idea what you're talking about.

With that said, attacking the messenger is much easier then actually accepting the problem, and it's SOP for CAP.

[Storm Chaser]

And all you do is complain about everything. Unlike you, I do the best I can to improve things in my AOR. I also help other members, staff officers and commanders as much as I can. I don't blame others or put the responsibility elsewhere. I haven't given up. I'm a CAP officer and I take responsibility as such. Do you?

(And by the way, you can put that on a t-shirt.)

You literally have no idea what you're talking about.

And you do?

[Eclipse]

And all you do is complain about everything. Unlike you, I do the best I can to improve things in my AOR. I also help other members, staff officers and commanders as much as I can. I don't blame others or put the responsibility elsewhere. I haven't given up. I'm a CAP officer and I take responsibility as such. Do you?

(And by the way, you can put that on a t-shirt.)

You literally have no idea what you're talking about.

And you do?

About my involvement in CAP? I would think so.

As usual, when the arguments run out of gas, thinks start to get personal.

[Panache]

They'd get lost driving to the unit. . .or be late, having stopped to re-do an ORM form, on account of it got dark. Having driven past midnight, one of them would fall out of safety currency, requiring the offender to leave the vehicle. . .the unfortunate soul, abandoned on a dark country road, straining to read the applicable CAP Reg on his smart phone, steps onto the tarmac and is cut down by a passing CAP van.  Driven by a CAP mom, she can't stop and render aid, as the other occupants include two male cadets, and a lone female cadet. Convicted of felony idiocy, she is 2B'ed, and as she is the last female SM, the unit CP program implodes, and the CC is fired. The D/CC is lost to a fatal paper cut while assembling a SUI binder. The Safety Officer, despondent, takes to binge eating, grows too stout for his AF blues, and hangs himself with a cord fashioned from strips torn from a polo shirt. The unit disolves, and NHQ releases a Polo Shirt Safety course to help prevent another such train of tragedy.  After a few years, the squadron's pilots notice the unit no longer exists, but are able to shrug it off and keep flying.

This is both the funniest and saddest thing I've read all day.  Bravo.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

They'd get lost driving to the unit. . .or be late, having stopped to re-do an ORM form, on account of it got dark. Having driven past midnight, one of them would fall out of safety currency, requiring the offender to leave the vehicle. . .the unfortunate soul, abandoned on a dark country road, straining to read the applicable CAP Reg on his smart phone, steps onto the tarmac and is cut down by a passing CAP van.  Driven by a CAP mom, she can't stop and render aid, as the other occupants include two male cadets, and a lone female cadet. Convicted of felony idiocy, she is 2B'ed, and as she is the last female SM, the unit CP program implodes, and the CC is fired. The D/CC is lost to a fatal paper cut while assembling a SUI binder. The Safety Officer, despondent, takes to binge eating, grows too stout for his AF blues, and hangs himself with a cord fashioned from strips torn from a polo shirt. The unit disolves, and NHQ releases a Polo Shirt Safety course to help prevent another such train of tragedy.  After a few years, the squadron's pilots notice the unit no longer exists, but are able to shrug it off and keep flying.

This is both the funniest and saddest thing I've read all day.  Bravo.

And bitingly true.

[Storm Chaser]

And all you do is complain about everything. Unlike you, I do the best I can to improve things in my AOR. I also help other members, staff officers and commanders as much as I can. I don't blame others or put the responsibility elsewhere. I haven't given up. I'm a CAP officer and I take responsibility as such. Do you?

(And by the way, you can put that on a t-shirt.)

You literally have no idea what you're talking about.

And you do?

About my involvement in CAP? I would think so.

As usual, when the arguments run out of gas, thinks start to get personal.

I wasn't trying to question your involvement with CAP during the past 15 years, but your current attitude towards the organization, which I believe is counterproductive.

Say what you will, but your experience with CAP is only a fraction of what the organization is. Yet you seem to think that your opinion is the only one that's valid; that everyone who disagrees with you is wrong. Obviously, not every member feels the same way.