Uniform policies if NAT/CC

[Storm Chaser]

Don't know.....but one of my ideas for the NCO corps......one of their jobs, at least initially, would be the keepers of military customs and courtesies and the Uniform Police. 

So the Uniform Staff Office would be part of the CAP/CMSgt's job.   He/She would not chair the NUC...but would a voting member and primary member...maybe vice chair for want of another term.   He/She would handle the routine things about 39-1 that would not need to be staffed or sent to CC or NUC.

What qualifies NCOs to be better "keepers of military customs and courtesies and the Uniform Police" than commissioned officers? Having been an NCO and currently a commissioned officer, I know that unless the NCO was a MTI, MTL, first sergeant, recruiter, honor guard or similar, that being an NCO in itself does not guarantee that they're more knowledgable, experienced or better in customs and courtesies and proper uniform wear. In fact, some of the biggest culprits I've encounter in CAP regarding unauthorized military badges and/or incorrect placement on the uniform are former NCOs.

[lordmonar]

Nothing.....no insult was intended.

My point was that uniforms and C&C would be the initial job for the CAP NCO corps.....as we expand the NCO/Enlisted concept in CAP.

[Storm Chaser]

Nothing.....no insult was intended.

My point was that uniforms and C&C would be the initial job for the CAP NCO corps.....as we expand the NCO/Enlisted concept in CAP.

I didn't take it as an insult. I was asking an honest question. I think some NCOs are really good at these things (C&C, D&C, uniforms, etc.), but I also know many who aren't. The same goes for officers.

Unless referring to cadets, I don't agree that this should be one of the roles of CAP NCOs. This is ultimately the commander's responsibility and any senior officer can and should assume an active role in this. Furthermore, if the CAP NCO program expands to include non-prior service members, then a brand new CAP SSgt wouldn't be much different from a current CAP 2d Lt or FO, which, for the most part, are not knowledgable or experienced enough in these areas to be able to assume the role you suggest.

[lordmonar]

Everything is ultimatly the commander's responsiblity.

He has a staff to do different jobs within his area of responsbility.

Safety to a safety officer.
PD to the PD officer
Cadets to the DCC

Etc, and so on.

Your statement that some are good at one thing and others are not.....I agree with.   
If my idea of NCO's taking on the role of keepers of the military heritage and traditions takes shape.....we would have ways to teach non-prior NCO's how to do it.   

Who are the current go to subject matter experts on all things uniform and drill?   Cadets.  Uniforms and C&C's are teachable skills.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Yet they will have to deal with some grown men egos...

[Storm Chaser]

Everything is ultimatly the commander's responsiblity.

He has a staff to do different jobs within his area of responsbility.

Safety to a safety officer.
PD to the PD officer
Cadets to the DCC

Etc, and so on.

Your statement that some are good at one thing and others are not.....I agree with.   
If my idea of NCO's taking on the role of keepers of the military heritage and traditions takes shape.....we would have ways to teach non-prior NCO's how to do it.   

Who are the current go to subject matter experts on all things uniform and drill?   Cadets.  Uniforms and C&C's are teachable skills.

I'm one to always follow CAPM 39-1 to the letter when it comes to my uniform. When There's been a gray area or something unclear in the past, I've consulted through the chain of command or asked the question through the CAP Knowledgebase. Even then, I've always opted for the most conservative interpretation of CAPM 39-1.

All that said, once in a while, I get a Maj or Lt Col question me about something in my uniform (usually they have theirs wrong), but I'm always able to point to CAPM 39-1, an ICL or a wing supplement. The first time a brand new SSgt try to do the same, things will get "interesting", to say the least.

Don't get me wrong, I think EVERYONE is responsible for proper uniform wear. But I still don't think that a brand new SSgt has any business being the "uniform police" when he/she may still be learning how to wear his/her own uniform.

[PHall]

Everything is ultimatly the commander's responsiblity.

He has a staff to do different jobs within his area of responsbility.

Safety to a safety officer.
PD to the PD officer
Cadets to the DCC

Etc, and so on.

Your statement that some are good at one thing and others are not.....I agree with.   
If my idea of NCO's taking on the role of keepers of the military heritage and traditions takes shape.....we would have ways to teach non-prior NCO's how to do it.   

Who are the current go to subject matter experts on all things uniform and drill?   Cadets.  Uniforms and C&C's are teachable skills.

I'm one to always follow CAPM 39-1 to the letter when it comes to my uniform. When There's been a gray area or something unclear in the past, I've consulted through the chain of command or asked the question through the CAP Knowledgebase. Even then, I've always opted for the most conservative interpretation of CAPM 39-1.

All that said, once in a while, I get a Maj or Lt Col question me about something in my uniform (usually they have theirs wrong), but I'm always able to point to CAPM 39-1, an ICL or a wing supplement. The first time a brand new SSgt try to do the same, things will get "interesting", to say the least.

Don't get me wrong, I think EVERYONE is responsible for proper uniform wear. But I still don't think that a brand new SSgt has any business being the "uniform police" when he/she may still be learning how to wear his/her own uniform.

You always will win when you can cite the reg in question. Bonus points for the exact paragraph, table or figure.
But seriously, it's not that hard to look up this stuff these days. A smartphone is today's regulations file cabinet.

[Storm Chaser]

You always will win when you can cite the reg in question. Bonus points for the exact paragraph, table or figure.
But seriously, it's not that hard to look up this stuff these days. A smartphone is today's regulations file cabinet.

That's so true. I keep all the regs in my iPhone and iPad. They come handy all the time.

[abdsp51]

Suspense dates are there to move things along and improve the current process.  It would also show who's doing their job and who isn't. 

[PHall]

Suspense dates are there to move things along and improve the current process.  It would also show who's doing their job and who isn't.

They're also there so you can plan ahead and schedule your work.

[ZigZag911]

No uniformity is possible if cadets are wearing one uniform and senior members another!!!!!!!!

D'uh!!!!!!!!!!!!

Really?

So the U.S. military academies, where cadets or midshipman wear a customized uniform, while active duty personnel (equivalent to CAP seniors in this analogy)
wear their service's prescribed uniform, lack "uniformity"?

I'm proposing basically the same approach, only reversed, for various reasons -- cadets wear the parent service's uniform, seniors wear the specially designed one.

[Luis R. Ramos]

A fallacy. We are not the US Military Academy. But back to your analogy of the US Military Academy. Are you telling me the cadets do not wear the same uniform in the field? The active military there wear the ACU and the cadets wear... what? When they go to the field? I thought they wore the ACU as well.

[Storm Chaser]

A fallacy. We are not the US Military Academy. But back to your analogy of the US Military Academy. Are you telling me the cadets do not wear the same uniform in the field? The active military there wear the ACU and the cadets wear... what? When they go to the field? I thought they wore the ACU as well.

The problem is that, unlike the service academies and ROTC, most senior members are not active duty, reserve or retired personnel; they're civilians. Many don't meet grooming or weight standards imposed by our parent service. That's a fact, whether we like it or not. And since it's very unlikely that the U.S. Air Force will ever authorize the wear of their uniform for personnel not meeting this standard, the only viable option to eliminate the perception of a "second class" membership is to adopt a single corporate uniform that everyone can wear.

The only alternative to that would be to improve the current corporate uniform while also keeping the Air Force-style uniform. That would alleviate, but not resolve the current dilemma; we have some members with uniform options and others without.

[Panache]

A fallacy. We are not the US Military Academy.

We are also not RealMilitary™, so that point is moot.

[PHall]

A fallacy. We are not the US Military Academy.

We are also not RealMilitary™, so that point is moot.

Some would argue that West Point isn't either.

[flyboy53]

No uniformity is possible if cadets are wearing one uniform and senior members another!!!!!!!!

D'uh!!!!!!!!!!!!

Really?

So the U.S. military academies, where cadets or midshipman wear a customized uniform, while active duty personnel (equivalent to CAP seniors in this analogy)
wear their service's prescribed uniform, lack "uniformity"?

I'm proposing basically the same approach, only reversed, for various reasons -- cadets wear the parent service's uniform, seniors wear the specially designed one.

I'm getting so tired of this debate.. Service academies are unique in terms of uniforms that are based on history and tradition.
We are not.

Previously senior members who didn't meet the standard were limited to a polo shirt, a blazer uniform or a white shirt with only a name tag. This whole mess started when some senior members (who didn't comply with the accepted standard) opted for a custom uniform so they could wear all of the bling.

Being a member of this organization is expensive enough and Cadets generally laugh at senior members enough already because of the lack of self discipline that results in these constant debates and pushes for s whole assortment of uniforms.

Can't we show some pride within our selves and agree to disagree or take the high road and conform to a standard. After all, the standard relates to a healthy life style.

Can we stop making excuses or debate exceptions to policy. Let the unit commander determine when there will be an exception to policy.

Years ago, the first sergeant of the Combat Support Squadron at my AF Reserve base was redlined at a drill and then processed for retirement because he didn't meet the weight standard. He was a senior master sergeant hoping to serve until age 60 in order to obtain the maximum points for retirement. Instead, he was cut short with only 20 years service. I remember his big argument at the time was that if he lost weight to conform to standards, he would have to go out and purchase a whole new wardrobe.  Funny how some people justify sacking a career.

We are volunteers and we have been given a special privilege to wear an Air Force uniform with unique insignia. If you don't want to comply with the accepted standard, just wear a polo shirt or blazer.

[Luis R. Ramos]

From Panache
Some would argue that West Point isn't either.

From PHall
We are also not RealMilitary™, so that point is moot.

These two messages gives more weight to my response. CAP is not a Military Academy, so do not compare both!

[Storm Chaser]

With that argument, CAP should not wear a military uniform as CAP is not a military service.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Not true. It can if it is treated as the Civilian Auxiliary of the United States Air Force.

[Eclipse]

With that argument, CAP should not wear a military uniform as CAP is not a military service.

CAP does not wear a "military" uniform, it wears a "military-style" uniform.