Uniform policies if NAT/CC

[abdsp51]

We hit on this briefly in another thread but I think we could split this and start one since members here like to provide solutions.

I have posted this before and will use it here to kick off this thread.

"Now if I was the NHQ/CC some of the changes I would make in regards to uniforms would be:

1) Find a middle ground somewhere between corp and AF style all around

2) Change the way recommendations for uniform changes are submitted.  This would be either a central point for membership to recommend changes or changing the language in 39-1 to state that all uniform suggestions will be sent to the NUC and no one can deny membership that process.  IE if a member has a recommendation, change etc, only the NUC can decide whether or not to pursue it, and no one can squash it between the member and the NUC.  There would be a suspense control in place or developed for the member to track the status of their submission.

3) Require weigh-ins for all members above 18yo who desire to wear the AF style uniform until the implementation of a unified uniform.  Also members would be required to sign a form stating that they will comply with uniform policies or face some degree of personnel action.

4) Any wing desiring specialized uniforms (ground teams, etc) would be required to submit with solid justification a supplement for approval.  Justification needs to be a state statute, county ordinance, etc for the implementation of said uniforms.  Supplements would be required to be reviewed every two years or upon changes to 39-1.

5) CAPM39-1 would undergo review every 2 years or as needed to maintain currency.

Would these be popular, probably not but would help to bring a more firm identity to the org and allow for more enforcement of the publication."

Now knowing members are so wound up on weigh ins and it's a pain I think it's a needed requirement to project that image we need to across the org.  There are numerous instances where weight is required to be provided and this is nothing different from there.  I'll this caveat to it though, you don't want to weigh in, you wear G/W and you don't fly or participate in anything where you have to give your weight that simple.  Making this a requirement in writing in the manual makes it something that has to be done. 

As mentioned above find a common ground for uniforms one way or another.  Standardize one color of grey and find one or two companies who already have that color in their inventory.  This keeps costs down and provides a source for the items.

Work closely with CAP-USAF to find some middle ground on uniforms and work to find a compromise that is beneficial to all.  IE work to allow DoD awards and decorations be worn on the G/W.   

I am sure I could come up with more ideas and suggestions as time goes by.

[Eclipse]

The very fact that weigh-ins were so unpopular should have been the impetus to not only
have them as a best-practice, but mandate them for all members.

The entire situation would become less contentious overnight if CAP just enforced its existing rules, regs, and polices.

[abdsp51]

The very fact that weigh-ins were so unpopular should have been the impetus to not only
have them as a best-practice, but mandate them for all members.

The entire situation would become less contentious overnight if CAP just enforced its existing rules, regs, and polices.

True but until that change or enforcement starts somewhere we will continue to be where we are at.  If it's written and members are held accountable the point will get across sooner or later.  As I pointed out if you don't want to weigh in, you don't fly period and your uniform choice is limited,  CCs who don't comply get removed.

[Eclipse]

Where do I sign?

[abdsp51]

Where do I sign?

LOL.... This is if I was the NAT/CC. 

[Salty]

I'd sign onto this as well.

[NIN]

2) Change the way recommendations for uniform changes are submitted.  This would be either a central point for membership to recommend changes or changing the language in 39-1 to state that all uniform suggestions will be sent to the NUC and no one can deny membership that process.  IE if a member has a recommendation, change etc, only the NUC can decide whether or not to pursue it, and no one can squash it between the member and the NUC.  There would be a suspense control in place or developed for the member to track the status of their submission.

Are you on crack?  We can't get decent suspense control on personnel and administrative actions for day to day operations!

[SARDOC]

Where do I sign?

LOL.... This is if I was the NAT/CC.

You'd have my vote.

[Tim Medeiros]

2) Change the way recommendations for uniform changes are submitted.  This would be either a central point for membership to recommend changes or changing the language in 39-1 to state that all uniform suggestions will be sent to the NUC and no one can deny membership that process.  IE if a member has a recommendation, change etc, only the NUC can decide whether or not to pursue it, and no one can squash it between the member and the NUC.  There would be a suspense control in place or developed for the member to track the status of their submission.

Are you on crack?

No but he did just have some smash fries which I hear is just as good.

[Eclipse]

2) Change the way recommendations for uniform changes are submitted.  This would be either a central point for membership to recommend changes or changing the language in 39-1 to state that all uniform suggestions will be sent to the NUC and no one can deny membership that process.  IE if a member has a recommendation, change etc, only the NUC can decide whether or not to pursue it, and no one can squash it between the member and the NUC.  There would be a suspense control in place or developed for the member to track the status of their submission.

Are you on crack?  We can't get decent suspense control on personnel and administrative actions for day to day operations!

"OK Google" "Set reminder for 39-1 update for 2015."

Of course that would require NHQ to have a functional calender, but I digress.

[lordmonar]

1) Is more or less what we have now.

2) While I agree that we should have a more direct line to the NUC....an "Ask the NUC" function is what the USAF does.   I don't see a need for suspense control.  That would assume that a) you should get feed back on your suggestion and b) that there is some sort of staff working that feed back.   In the end it makes no difference if your squadron commander says "that's stupid" then one of the anonymous NUC members.   I think the chain of command process is good because we don't have any staff to man the THOUSANDS of requests we will get for ABU's, Swords, Pink TuTus, etc.   

3) Requiring weigh ins....is just another administrative burden on the units that will not change a thing as far as enforcement of the already existing regs.   I ask this again....how often, which scale is "the scale", do we change the regs from "meet USAF standards to wear USAF Uniforms" to "Have meet the USAF standards at your last weigh in to be able to wear USAF uniforms"?  What if someone wishes to challenge a squadron's weigh in?  IMHO not really required to have mandatory periodic weigh ins......we just need to hammer our squadron commanders (and above) on not enforcing the standards.

4) Sort of agree....but not totally.   We need to require wings to publish specialty uniforms and wing policies on optional items in a supplement.   That way at least region and national can see what they are doing.  I don't see having to go to the National Commander or NUC every time you think you need a specialty uniform.   Just like in #3 above.....regional and national commanders should be monitoring what is going on and hammering as needed. 

5) All regulations should be constantly reviewed by the NHQ Staff responsible for that reg.

[abdsp51]

1) Is more or less what we have now.

2) While I agree that we should have a more direct line to the NUC....an "Ask the NUC" function is what the USAF does.   I don't see a need for suspense control.  That would assume that a) you should get feed back on your suggestion and b) that there is some sort of staff working that feed back.   In the end it makes no difference if your squadron commander says "that's stupid" then one of the anonymous NUC members.   I think the chain of command process is good because we don't have any staff to man the THOUSANDS of requests we will get for ABU's, Swords, Pink TuTus, etc.   

3) Requiring weigh ins....is just another administrative burden on the units that will not change a thing as far as enforcement of the already existing regs.   I ask this again....how often, which scale is "the scale", do we change the regs from "meet USAF standards to wear USAF Uniforms" to "Have meet the USAF standards at your last weigh in to be able to wear USAF uniforms"?  What if someone wishes to challenge a squadron's weigh in?  IMHO not really required to have mandatory periodic weigh ins......we just need to hammer our squadron commanders (and above) on not enforcing the standards.

4) Sort of agree....but not totally.   We need to require wings to publish specialty uniforms and wing policies on optional items in a supplement.   That way at least region and national can see what they are doing.  I don't see having to go to the National Commander or NUC every time you think you need a specialty uniform.   Just like in #3 above.....regional and national commanders should be monitoring what is going on and hammering as needed. 

5) All regulations should be constantly reviewed by the NHQ Staff responsible for that reg.

1) And look at the headaches and drama there is with it.  You have those butt hurt they can't wear one uniform and feel they are second class.  Working to finding a common ground between everyone will go far in easing the moaning and groaning. 

2) This process eliminates wing or region commanders from canning something simply because they don't like it or feel it's stupid.  Let the NUC determine the merit of the suggestion, plus this shows the membership the process in action, and they can track it rather than it disappearing into a black hole somewhere.

3) Requiring the weigh-ins mandates enforcement for those who want to wear the AF style to ensure compliance with 39-1 and the H/W standard in effect.  You don't weigh in your stuck in corp and you don't fly period.  Commanders who don't conduct them and enforce it are canned period.  Weigh-ins would be annual and upon commanders discretion based upon observations.  The only change is the weigh in is now mandatory.  If commanders can't comply with this what else are the not complying with.

4) Doing this keeps commanders across the board in the loop and have SA on it.  Plus it prevents Wgs from using it's state requirement without citing it as a cop out.  This puts the onus and burden of proof on the Wg CC and Region CC to track these things. 

5) Yes they should but 39-1 needs to be constantly updated to keep up. 

Commanders across the board should be enforcing this and other regs and not just treating them as guidelines or suggestions.  Problem is we can all count at least one instance where that has not happened at all. 

[lordmonar]

1)  I agree.  But there you go.

2)Why should wing and regional commanders not be able to ax something they don't like?  Why should all the power be in the NUC.....oh how does one get to be on the NUC?   Bottom line is that decision is the CAP/CC.....the NUC simply makes suggestions.  I agree that maybe we should stream line it.....it just means more work for the NUC to toss out all those stupid suggestions that could have been axed at lower levels.  As for tracking.....again......you are perfectly able now to track it yourself.....Col Wing Commander, did you get my white paper?  Would please provide me feed back?   Mr Wing Commander, why are you not responding to my requests?  Col Regional Commander I sent the following white paper to my wing commander, he has not responded to any of my requests for feed back or what he intends to do with my request.....therefor I am forwarding it to you for your consideration."

3) No requiring weights does not mandate anything other then the squadron produce a periodic report that says "we conducted the weigh in and here are the results".....Enforcement is already mandated.   It is the culture that needs to be fixed.  We cannot allow commanders to do what they want "sure you can wear boonies" or to let things slide.  We can only fix that by having the fortitude to have those tough conversations and being ready to FIRE someone for not getting it right.  Making me do weigh ins only means that I got more work to do....because I'm already enforcing the uniform regs.   It is only going to create more costs and more paperwork and more time away from doing things like AE, CP and ES.

4) If we are doing number 3 we don't have to worry about number 4.  CAWG (just to pick you guys for a second) think they need a special uniform.....put it in the SUP.....region should be looking at all the SUPs even if they don't have approve them......so they should already have the SA.   But again this is about reducing work load and keeping things in their channels.....Does the CAP/CC really have to review and approve all of these?   And if you codify it as requiring law, or verification by the Pope......you automatically take away "this is a really good idea" for any situations are less then law.  If you make things too restrictive for special circumstance then you only push subordinate units to just ignore the regulation.....like CAWG did for many many years.....and the only reason why they took it to the NB was to get everyone off their backs about or to go around the regional/national CC by using the power of the NB to overrule the commander.    (thank the FSM that that is gone now!).

5) So we agree on one thing. 

[abdsp51]

1)  I agree.  But there you go.

2)Why should wing and regional commanders not be able to ax something they don't like?  Why should all the power be in the NUC.....oh how does one get to be on the NUC?   Bottom line is that decision is the CAP/CC.....the NUC simply makes suggestions.  I agree that maybe we should stream line it.....it just means more work for the NUC to toss out all those stupid suggestions that could have been axed at lower levels.  As for tracking.....again......you are perfectly able now to track it yourself.....Col Wing Commander, did you get my white paper?  Would please provide me feed back?   Mr Wing Commander, why are you not responding to my requests?  Col Regional Commander I sent the following white paper to my wing commander, he has not responded to any of my requests for feed back or what he intends to do with my request.....therefor I am forwarding it to you for your consideration."

3) No requiring weights does not mandate anything other then the squadron produce a periodic report that says "we conducted the weigh in and here are the results".....Enforcement is already mandated.   It is the culture that needs to be fixed.  We cannot allow commanders to do what they want "sure you can wear boonies" or to let things slide.  We can only fix that by having the fortitude to have those tough conversations and being ready to FIRE someone for not getting it right.  Making me do weigh ins only means that I got more work to do....because I'm already enforcing the uniform regs.   It is only going to create more costs and more paperwork and more time away from doing things like AE, CP and ES.

4) If we are doing number 3 we don't have to worry about number 4.  CAWG (just to pick you guys for a second) think they need a special uniform.....put it in the SUP.....region should be looking at all the SUPs even if they don't have approve them......so they should already have the SA.   But again this is about reducing work load and keeping things in their channels.....Does the CAP/CC really have to review and approve all of these?   And if you codify it as requiring law, or verification by the Pope......you automatically take away "this is a really good idea" for any situations are less then law.  If you make things too restrictive for special circumstance then you only push subordinate units to just ignore the regulation.....like CAWG did for many many years.....and the only reason why they took it to the NB was to get everyone off their backs about or to go around the regional/national CC by using the power of the NB to overrule the commander.    (thank the FSM that that is gone now!).

5) So we agree on one thing. 

We can agree to disagree on this all day long.  What I have posted I see as ways for membership to own part of their processes, and eliminate this thing that anyone can can a suggestion.  Do I think that CC's have enough on their plate yeo, but I also know that many don't comply with some of the most basic aspects. And weigh in it's been addressed you don't weigh in you wear corp and you don't fly or participate in activities where that may be an issue.  If I was the NAT/CC I would want to hear all ideas in regards to the appearance of the org whether or not my wing or region commanders liked it.  For all we know some member has a dang good one but it will never get through as long as wing and region can ax it.

I know of a few instances where having approval across the board would nip alot in the rear.  IE people claim that PA has to wear orange hats for whatever reason,  that's easily withing the purview of the Wing CC to do.  But there are places where it's said that it's a state or county requirement for things.  Having the sup sent to NHQ with the justification and state item quoted eases their process some. 

CA for example everyone was hooting and hollering that it was a state law that the GT wore the orange shirt.  Guess what after a couple hours worth of research and a few phones calls I learned that it was not the case and that it was a recommendation and best practice.  We did have that conversation if I do recall. 

[lordmonar]

Yes.....but you are missing the point.

BACK IN THE DAY.....once the NB made their ill informed decision....there was nothing the national commander could do.
Now.....NVWG...if they want to/need to adopt a special uniform for some reason.......say the school that they have an 800 squadron in does not allow blues or bdu uniforms.....the Wing CC writes the supp and it is done.   Region or anyone else who wants to say something....well call the wing cc.  If they can't convince their boss then the boss axes it on the spot.

If it has to go all the way to CAP/CC.....well then it gets pushed to the NUC who then has to fight with the guy from MEWG who knows nothing about it.....and has is pissed off at the very idea that we have units in schools in the first place.  In the mean time what's happening at the unit level?

The less we MUST send to NHQ the best.  We should trust (but verify) our lower level commanders to do the right thing....and monitor them and hammer them when they step out of line.

Having higher level approval will NOT nip anything in the bud.   PAWG and CAWG and many other wings operated outside of the regulations for YEARS.   It did not get nipped in the bud because NO ONE was reinforcing the regs at higher head quarters.

If as in the case for CAWG it turns out that someone LIED to higher head quarters when pressed on the issue.....well then you can always take care of that.

My point here is that more regulations and more processes are not necessarily the answer.
More supervision and more internal fortitude to call up the squadron/group/wing commander and saying "WTF dude....Orange T-shirts?  You got to be kidding me!  I'm giving you 2 months to get all your people back into black T-shirts".  Or for smaller issues...."Cadet why are you wearing a boonie hat?"  "Why Major Needsajob Sir"......then you know where to go from there.

Most of the problems you are talking about are simply that.....commanders and leaders at all levels NOT DOING THEIR BASIC JOB!

You follow the rules.  You make sure your subordinate follow the rules.  You encourage your peers to follow the rules.  And you challenge your superiors when they deviate from the rules.

If we did that......we would not need to do anything else.   But making more rules.....the ones they are not following now....is not going to help.

YMMV

[Eclipse]

3) Requiring weigh ins....is just another administrative burden on the units that will not change a thing as far as enforcement of the already existing regs.   I ask this again....how often, which scale is "the scale", do we change the regs from "meet USAF standards to wear USAF Uniforms" to "Have meet the USAF standards at your last weigh in to be able to wear USAF uniforms"?  What if someone wishes to challenge a squadron's weigh in?  IMHO not really required to have mandatory periodic weigh ins......we just need to hammer our squadron commanders (and above) on not enforcing the standards.

Fine - hammer them.

Don't want to deal with the "official scale" nonsense (which is just that, nonsense), just bring in a Dr's note that says what you weigh.
No one close will be an issue - if the unit scale says 151 and the Dr says 150, the conversation is over. If the Unit scale says
380 and the Dr. says 260, then you've got an issue.  That will be a less then 1% problem.  No one clearly out of weight will
even bother, and those close will be close.

Want to challenge the scale, challenge it.  That's 5 minutes of discussion and the Dr's note again.  5 minutes better spent
then a time-wasting safety brief on cold weather hazards in July or redoing knife safety the 12th time, and also 5 minutes
setting the tone that the "party is over" for those who choose to ignore the rules.

Those "close" aren't the issue, and setting the tone on the problem will literally fix 9% of that same problem overnight.

Done.

[Eclipse]

Most of the problems you are talking about are simply that.....commanders and leaders at all levels NOT DOING THEIR BASIC JOB!

You follow the rules.  You make sure your subordinate follow the rules.  You encourage your peers to follow the rules.  And you challenge your superiors when they deviate from the rules.

If we did that......we would not need to do anything else.   But making more rules.....the ones they are not following now....is not going to help.

Agree 100%, but rules with no consequences, literally ignored by those charged with the enforcement, are meaningless.

This is one pendulum that is going to need to swing all the way in the other direction before it is fixed.

The first time HEADCAP refuses to hand a flag to a new wing or region CC because he is not in compliance with H/W, will be the day
CAP is back on track, until then, and especially when not only are the flags passed but the photos are published nationally,
no one downstream is going to pay it any more mind then it already gets.

We get a couple of tow bars left on the plane and somehow the system is quickly updated so every FRO has to ask the question from now on.
Fair enough, that's an issue which literally risks life and property of our members and the general public.

So why is something so basic and important to the integrity and image of CAP so hard to enforce?
And again, why does CAP care about the wailing and gnashing of teeth of people who are breaking
these simple, clear rules?

[Panache]

2)Why should wing and regional commanders not be able to ax something they don't like? 

But it's not just the regional commanders.  It's their subordinate staff members as well.

Let's say 1st Lt. Goodguy has an idea.  Now, he's supposed to follow the chain of command.  So he submits it to the Deputy Commander for Seniors.  That, in turn, is sent to the Squadron CC.  Then it goes up to Group, and before it gets to the Group CC his assistant will evaluate it.  Same for Wing.  Same for Region.  And so on.

All it takes is one person to say "Eh, I don't like it" and it's axed.

If Lt. Goodguy is lucky, he'll get word filtered back down to him that his submission was killed.  But, more likely than not, he'll hear nothing and have no idea that it was thrown in the trash can, or why.

[lordmonar]

2)Why should wing and regional commanders not be able to ax something they don't like? 

But it's not just the regional commanders.  It's their subordinate staff members as well.

Let's say 1st Lt. Goodguy has an idea.  Now, he's supposed to follow the chain of command.  So he submits it to the Deputy Commander for Seniors.  That, in turn, is sent to the Squadron CC.  Then it goes up to Group, and before it gets to the Group CC his assistant will evaluate it.  Same for Wing.  Same for Region.  And so on.

All it takes is one person to say "Eh, I don't like it" and it's axed.

If Lt. Goodguy is lucky, he'll get word filtered back down to it that his submission was killed.  But, more likely than not, he'll hear nothing and have no idea that it was thrown in the trash can, or why.

Lt Goodguy only needs to follow up at it goes up the chain.   If he thinks he is getting stone walled or disagrees with Echelon X, he goes on up the chain.

You guys want your cake and to eat it too.   If you really feel strongly about it....you will fight for it.   Like I said before....I don't have a real problem with a VFR direct to the NUC.   I do have a problem with a suspense and record tracking requirement for it.

Assuming that such a tool was implemented....and we followed the USAF ROE....the NUC would meet once every two years and wade through all the suggestions that the uniform staff has been collecting....as well as all the stuff the uniform staff has been working on.
They would then make their recommendations to CAP/CC after routing it through CAP-USAF.

There is very little chance of any immediate feed back.

[Panache]

You guys want your cake and to eat it too.   If you really feel strongly about it....you will fight for it.   Like I said before....I don't have a real problem with a VFR direct to the NUC.   I do have a problem with a suspense and record tracking requirement for it.

Gah.  It hates me to say this, but I do agree with you there.

I think adding a suspense date to "Ask the NUC!" submissions would create too much overhead.  And, let's be honest here, I imagine most would put an unreasonable amount of time on it, like, say, a week.