Wear of the Command Service Pin...?

[Luis R. Ramos]

Where are you supposed to wear the embroidered Command Service pin on the BDU if you wear the Emergency Services patch?

I could not find any mention about exact placement of this pin other than on the right side above the name tape but it does not address the issue of having to move the ES patch if you already were wearing it on the current CAPM 39-1. The draft CAPM 39-1 states this pin is worn between the ES patch and tape.

[Garibaldi]

Where are you supposed to wear the embroidered Command Service pin on the BDU if you wear the Emergency Services patch?

I could not find any mention about exact placement of this pin other than on the right side above the name tape but it does not address the issue of having to move the ES patch if you already were wearing it on the current CAPM 39-1. The draft CAPM 39-1 states this pin is worn between the ES patch and tape.

In this case, I'd choose one patch until the draft is fact.

[Eclipse]

You wear it 1/2-inch, white-to-white, above the nametape on the wearer's right side, moving the
ES patch up to 1/2 inch over the command pin.

Or just leave Droopy off the uniform.

You will not find this in any of the regs or ICLs, but a number of people have asked NHQ and that is what they were told.

In this case, I'd choose one patch until the draft is fact.

+1 (or forever).

[rmutchler]

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1047/~/cap-command-badge

Note: The cloth version of the Command Badge is authorized on the BDU and field uniforms. It's worn in the same position as the metal badge, 1/2 inch above the nametag on the right breast.

[Mela_007]

Is wear of the CAP Command Badge required by current squadron commanders?  I only saw that they "may" be worn.

[Eclipse]

The phantom draft had it as required.

Why wouldn't a CC wear it?

[Checotah]

Minor clarification: the draft requires it on the AF style uniforms, optional on others.

As to why a CC wouldn't wear it, some CC's either cannot or will not wear the AF style uniform, and some eschew wearing uniforms at all.  Wear of any uniform is optional except in specific circumstances: aboard CAP a/c, working with cadets, etc.  I have known some excellent commanders, including previous Region CC's who are not into the whole "I'm a commander" identity thing, but who are never-the-less excellent commanders.   The uniform is one of several means to an end, but not necessarily the only one.

There was even a local previous Region CC who was very active in CAP, both locally and Nationally, who openly advocated abandoning the uniform concept altogether and the entire AF grade structure for Seniors unless they were working with cadets.  He very much believed in the overall missions, just not the AF thing.

[Eclipse]

Minor clarification: the draft requires it on the AF style uniforms, optional on others.

A misguided compromise.  All insignia should be worn in the same way and
required in the same places regardless of the combo worn.

There is no reason except "certain people won't like it" not to, and making things combo-specific
causes unnecessary confusion in the membership.

Having a uniform show what you have done isn't about humility, it's about being able to tell
what should be expected of you (or telling the sad tale of your being whipped up and around.

When a Major with Level IV and Group CC badge starts asking basic "welcome to CAP"
question about mission ops or cadet testing, that tells me all I need to know about their history.

Same goes for someone wearing a Logistics Master who can't process an inventory properly.

I think a lot of members are more concerned about >that< vector then being "Humble".

There was even a local previous Region CC who was very active in CAP, both locally and Nationally, who openly advocated abandoning the uniform concept altogether

Thankfully he's "previous".

No one eschewing the uniform, or uncomfortable with the "I'm the commander" thing, should have the badge to start with.

What a load of nonsense.

A uniform is not a "means to an end", it is a baseline expectation of membership, and the commanders are expected to
wear it properly and often (if not always) as an example to their subordinates, not abandon it as some misguided political statement about
"mission".

The Air Force "thing" can't be magically separated from the "mission" - that's just doublethink.

That people with this attitude can rise to wearing eagles is a part of CAP challenges "If Col so-and-so can't be bothered, why should I?"

[lordmonar]

There was even a local previous Region CC who was very active in CAP, both locally and Nationally, who openly advocated abandoning the uniform concept altogether

Thankfully he's "previous".

No one eschewing the uniform, or uncomfortable with the "I'm the commander" thing, should have the badge to start with.

What a load of nonsense.

A uniform is not a "means to an end", it is a baseline expectation of membership, and the commanders are expected to
wear it properly and often (if not always) as an example to their subordinates, not abandon it as some misguided political statement about
"mission".

The Air Force "thing" can't be magically separated from the "mission" - that's just doublethink.

That people with this attitude can rise to wearing eagles is a part of CAP challenges "If Col so-and-so can't be bothered, why should I?"

So.....one of the Horsemen of the Apocalypse just rode by.....because I find myself in complete agreement with Eclipse here.
Commanders at all levels......set the example.   Out of weight wear the corporates.  What ever you wear, wear it right, wear it when ever it is appropriate to wear it.  Encourage your subordinates to do the same.

[Checotah]

Before I respond to you gentlemen, would you please share your command experience?

[lordmonar]

Before I respond to you gentlemen, would you please share your command experience?

Commanded an Overseas Cadet Squadron for two years, commanded a Composite Squadron for a year, then after a year gap was asked to take over temporarily (six months) when the wing commander and the squadron commander had a difference of opinion.  Trained the commander who replaced me and am currently the adviser to that commander.

Add 22 years AD Air Force time where I saw on one occasion a full bird forget this simple lesson.....instantly lost the trust and respect of his subordinates.....he was fired about six weeks later.

[Eclipse]

Unit, Group, 8 years encampment, recent former wing staff, current adviser to a group CC who was my subordinate in several endeavors previously, being asked to assume another unit.

[ColonelJack]

I'm going to join in with a thought or two here (my experience:  6 1/2 years as a squadron commander).

Regardless of our personal tastes or preferences, we join CAP knowing that it is a service organization with ties to the U.S. Air Force and that service requires the wear of some kind of a uniform.  How in the name of all that is holy does someone rise to the second-highest tier of leadership in an organization like that with an attitude toward uniforms and grade such as the one under discussion by a former Region CC?  In my (never-to-be) humble opinion, that attitude alone should disqualify anyone from holding any command position.

As has been pointed out, commanders set the example, especially in following regulations.  You can't advocate violating regulations and be a commander.  It just doesn't add up.

One other thing ... back when the CSU was being removed from the kit, hearsay/rumor had it that the initial proposal to do so came from a region CC out west.  Could it have been ... this guy you're talking about?

Jack

[Mela_007]

Here's a quick, slightly on/off topic...since uniforms are not actually "required", what is the best way to "encourage" more experienced senior members to purchase/wear the proper uniform(s)? 

I do not have near the experience or time in CAP that most of you on this thread possess, so any advice would be appreciated.  I am a soon to be first time squadron CC and 2d Lt. 

I do, however, completely agree that the commander needs to set the example.  Since it's the CC's job to enforce the regs, we should at least conform to them ourselves.

[JeffDG]

The phantom draft had it as required.

Why wouldn't a CC wear it?

Not a CC, but when I wear the White/Grey, I don't wear anything on it except the epaulets and nametag that are required.  No badges (not even my wings most of the time).  I prefer clean simplicity.

[Garibaldi]

Here's a quick, slightly on/off topic...since uniforms are not actually "required", what is the best way to "encourage" more experienced senior members to purchase/wear the proper uniform(s)? 

I do not have near the experience or time in CAP that most of you on this thread possess, so any advice would be appreciated.  I am a soon to be first time squadron CC and 2d Lt. 

I do, however, completely agree that the commander needs to set the example.  Since it's the CC's job to enforce the regs, we should at least conform to them ourselves.

Search the myriad uniform topics we have here.  There are several schools of thought on what the "proper" uniform is, and even more on why we can't "enforce" or even "encourage" the wear of same.

The minimum...MINIMUM...basic uniform is the short sleeve Air Force blue uniform. Many would argue that, since a given percentage of SMs do not meet height/weight or grooming requirements, or have served their time and "ain't a'gonna wear no gol-durned uniform again", the minimum uniform should be the polo/slacks combo. Most SMs that I have encountered here have argued successfully to me that the Polo is at least 90% functional for all of CAP's missions.

You're right; it IS up to you to enforce the regs for those who do choose to wear the AF style uniforms. Most will push back some, but they are well aware of the regs and what they can wear with their h/w and grooming issues. Point out to them that "COMPLIANCE WITH THIS DIRECTIVE IS MANDATORY".

Just remember, that if you don't meet the standards yourself, please don't try to argue your point in the wrong uniform. You can run the unit in the polo.

[Mela_007]

Thanks Garibaldi.  I appreciate the advice...Require mandatory compliance for the AF style and do what I can for the corporate. 

I currently do not meet the AF-style uniform standards and until I do I already carefully stick with the corporate uniforms (G/W, polo, field uniform) as required for the job being done.  Most of the senior members wear the polo uniform to our meetings anyway, so it's not a problem there.  I admit a large number of the jobs can be done in the polo, but I'm not going tromping through the woods in loafers and slacks on a ground team, so I have my field uniform. 

When I do wear my G/W combo, I pretty much stick to simple too...but then I haven't earned much of anything but a member ribbon yet, so I'll decide later about other stuff.     I will get the Command Pin after the change of command next month though and wear it with my G/W combo.

[Eclipse]

The best course any commander can take, in any regard, is to model the behavior they expect.

Sadly, many CCs are more concerned with being a "buddy" instead of a "Leader" .

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

As to why a CC wouldn't wear it, some CC's either cannot or will not wear the AF style uniform, and some eschew wearing uniforms at all.  Wear of any uniform is optional except in specific circumstances: aboard CAP a/c, working with cadets, etc.  I have known some excellent commanders, including previous Region CC's who are not into the whole "I'm a commander" identity thing, but who are never-the-less excellent commanders.   The uniform is one of several means to an end, but not necessarily the only one.

Nice way to promote esprit de corps (NOT).  The only time I've been in a remotely similar situation was with a flying club senior squadron where the "uniform" was various permutations of flight suits with no insignia (except leather nameplates) and golf shirts with various permutations of trousers (everything from faded Levi's to khakis), and they regarded doing almost anything with cadets as a PITA.

There was even a local previous Region CC who was very active in CAP, both locally and Nationally, who openly advocated abandoning the uniform concept altogether and the entire AF grade structure for Seniors unless they were working with cadets.  He very much believed in the overall missions, just not the AF thing.

Nice way to finish CAP off once and for all.  Many of us cherish the connection with the AF.  Many of us are proud to wear the uniform because we could not serve.  Many of us are proud to wear the uniform because we have served and want to maintain that continuity.

If that ever happens, expect to lose a fair chunk of our membership.

FTR, my CC wears the CSP as a "double" with his pilot's wings on his leather nameplate.

[Flying Pig]

Is wear of the CAP Command Badge required by current squadron commanders?  I only saw that they "may" be worn.

It's not required.  I never wore one. No particular reason. Just never got around to pining one on.   As far as uniforms.  I enjoyed wearing the uniform, ranks systems  etc.  I spent 8 yrs in the military (USMC and USAR) and still enjoyed a starched and pressed uniform.  I think it would be a sad day if CAP ever abandoned the uniforms.  Regardless of people odd motivations behind wearing them sometimes.