If you were a gambling man...

[Panache]

You're quitting over the uniform?   Really? 

Please read the second-to-last paragraph.

[a2capt]

These are not the uniforms you are looking for. Move along. Move along.

[lordmonar]

You're quitting over the uniform?   Really? 

Please read the second-to-last paragraph.

You're quitting over the uniform?  Rally? 

I think you are taking it a little too seriously.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I do not think Panache is leaving over the uniform, per se.

I think he is leaving because of a contemptuous attitude he senses from our "leadership" over those who cannot wear the USAF uniform, many due to circumstances beyond their control (medical issues, medication side effects, thyroid issues, among many others).

All right, viz. the USAF uniform, that can easily be blamed on the USAF, as it is "their" uniform.  A completely different attitude than the USCG takes toward their Auxiliary, and different to many State Defence Forces, and to similar organisations in Commonwealth countries (who actually grant their cadet organisational leadership a Queen's Commission), but, nonetheless, it is their uniform and they can choose to restrict who wears it, and how.

However, Panache is correct when he says that CAP forces those who cannot wear this uniform, and who want to wear a uniform, to wear a colourless, frankly ugly, pale (in every sense of the word) imitation.  No other military auxiliary/cadet service does that.

I have yet to find anyone, here on CT, or in the almost-20 years I have been in CAP, who likes the grey/white/blazer uniform.  Really likes, as in "proud to wear it."

Of course, those of the Polo Shirt Brigade will differ on that, but I suspect those members are looking for convenience more than anything else: the "I can throw that and some grey slacks in a bag in the back seat of my car and change on the way to the meeting."

Convenience, yes, but not much in the way of esprit de corps.

I think what Panache is getting at is that the uniform is the most visible manifestation of a general attitude toward many CAP members by the organisation itself.

[Panache]

I do not think Panache is leaving over the uniform, per se.

I think he is leaving because of a contemptuous attitude he senses from our "leadership" over those who cannot wear the USAF uniform, many due to circumstances beyond their control (medical issues, medication side effects, thyroid issues, among many others).

^^ This.  And, as I mentioned before, there are other things in CAP that are broken, but this is probably one of the most visible symptoms of this dysfunction.

It's also a lack of integrity from our "leadership".  They shove the white aviator shirt combo down our throats, and yet hypocritically exclude themselves from it.  I'm willing to bet that everybody on CAPTalk knows somebody who, according to the regs, shouldn't be in USAF blues but wears them anyway.  And I'm willing to bet that person is in some sort of leadership or higher staff position.

I don't mean this as a personal attack, lordmonar, so don't take it as such, 'cause I respect your input.  But your reply pretty much sums up my frustration.  "Well, yeah, I don't have to wear it, but I don't see why those who do are so upset about it.  How immature!"

Much like how we're always going on about how much churn we have and how difficult it is to keep competent SMs around.  But when one quits in frustration and tells you why, his/her concerns are completely marginalized and discounted as irrelevant.

However, Panache is correct when he says that CAP forces those who cannot wear this uniform, and who want to wear a uniform, to wear a colourless, frankly ugly, pale (in every sense of the word) imitation.  No other military auxiliary/cadet service does that.

Yup.  And they're feet-dug-in resistant to even a suggestion of change by those who have to wear it.  It's not Status Quo Is God, it's flat-out arrogance.

Of course, those of the Polo Shirt Brigade will differ on that, but I suspect those members are looking for convenience more than anything else: the "I can throw that and some grey slacks in a bag in the back seat of my car and change on the way to the meeting."

Well, don't forget that the Polo Shirt Brigade will be getting a smackdown as well in the new 39-1, as the new regs seem to restrict when it can be worn.  Unless that was taken out, too.

Let's just get rid of the uniform for SMs.  Or make is something like a CAP oxford-style shirt that everybody can wear.  No USAF-blues.  No G/Ws.  No BDUs or BBDUs.  No more castes.

[THRAWN]

I do not think Panache is leaving over the uniform, per se.

I think he is leaving because of a contemptuous attitude he senses from our "leadership" over those who cannot wear the USAF uniform, many due to circumstances beyond their control (medical issues, medication side effects, thyroid issues, among many others).

^^ This.  And, as I mentioned before, there are other things in CAP that are broken, but this is probably one of the most visible symptoms of this dysfunction.

It's also a lack of integrity from our "leadership".  They shove the white aviator shirt combo down our throats, and yet hypocritically exclude themselves from it.  I'm willing to bet that everybody on CAPTalk knows somebody who, according to the regs, shouldn't be in USAF blues but wears them anyway.  And I'm willing to bet that person is in some sort of leadership or higher staff position.

I don't mean this as a personal attack, lordmonar, so don't take it as such, 'cause I respect your input.  But your reply pretty much sums up my frustration.  "Well, yeah, I don't have to wear it, but I don't see why those who do are so upset about it.  How immature!"

Much like how we're always going on about how much churn we have and how difficult it is to keep competent SMs around.  But when one quits in frustration and tells you why, his/her concerns are completely marginalized and discounted as irrelevant.

However, Panache is correct when he says that CAP forces those who cannot wear this uniform, and who want to wear a uniform, to wear a colourless, frankly ugly, pale (in every sense of the word) imitation.  No other military auxiliary/cadet service does that.

Yup.  And they're feet-dug-in resistant to even a suggestion of change by those who have to wear it.  It's not Status Quo Is God, it's flat-out arrogance.

Of course, those of the Polo Shirt Brigade will differ on that, but I suspect those members are looking for convenience more than anything else: the "I can throw that and some grey slacks in a bag in the back seat of my car and change on the way to the meeting."

Well, don't forget that the Polo Shirt Brigade will be getting a smackdown as well in the new 39-1, as the new regs seem to restrict when it can be worn.  Unless that was taken out, too.

Let's just get rid of the uniform for SMs.  Or make is something like a CAP oxford-style shirt that everybody can wear.  No USAF-blues.  No G/Ws.  No BDUs or BBDUs.  No more castes.

Or put all SMs in the GW and BBDU. Aside from "feeling closer to our parent organization", what really is the point of SMs in the AF uni?

[lordmonar]

I understand.......he is quitting over a uniform.

Bottom line, brass tacks, BLUFF, Takeaway..........he is upset because he cannot wear the "good" uniform.

I understand.  I just want to be perfectly clear on this though.   What he needs to do is write a long letter to the BoG and Gen V.....as sort of "exit" interview.  Be nice, be polite.....but if there is any chance for change you have to let the boss know what is pissing you off.

Thanks for playing.

[Panache]

Bottom line, brass tacks, BLUFF, Takeaway..........he is upset because he cannot wear the "good" uniform.

If that's all you're taking away from this... (/shrug) so be it.

[THRAWN]

I understand.......he is quitting over a uniform.

Bottom line, brass tacks, BLUFF, Takeaway..........he is upset because he cannot wear the "good" uniform.

I understand.  I just want to be perfectly clear on this though.   What he needs to do is write a long letter to the BoG and Gen V.....as sort of "exit" interview.  Be nice, be polite.....but if there is any chance for change you have to let the boss know what is pissing you off.

Thanks for playing.

Since reading comprehension is an issue with you, let me attempt to make it perfectly clear: he is not leaving only over uniform issues. Mostly it's due to condescending narcissists like you who are so wrapped up in their own self importance that they find it hard to address the issues that are facing their organization. Weren't you the one that was going on about how much training and exercise planning (but no real real world operations...) that you had to do? Go do it. I feel sorry for the personnel under your supervision, since they would most certainly come second to your concept of how things should be...

[lordmonar]

Panache.  I'm sorry that the uniform is the straw that broke the camel's back.  Thank you for your service.

Thrawn....just go away.

[NIN]

No no no Patrick. Note the uniform. The name tags for the uniform.

Good thing somebody didn't change, I don't know, the belt buckle or something. We might have a full on rampage on our hands at that point.

Panache, if the name tags on the blue BDUs are pushing you over the edge, I submit to you that perhaps there are other things going on. Because in the grand scheme of straws that breaks the camel's back, these are pretty small.

[Eclipse]

Bottom line, brass tacks, BLUFF, Takeaway..........he is upset because he cannot wear the "good" uniform.

Somewhat condescending from someone who presumably has a choice in the matter.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Bottom line, brass tacks, BLUFF, Takeaway..........he is upset because he cannot wear the "good" uniform.

Somewhat condescending from someone who presumably has a choice in the matter.

+1


We've been over this. I wear the G/Ws. I've got an extra tire or two on my body. So be it, life is full of choices. But then, if I'm following the rules, and my superiors aren't it somewhat grinds my gears. It somewhat grinds my gears when I'm told "well you can pull it off". I couldn't, actually. But I'll look better than some of the masses I see in blues and BDUs today.


But my situation is my own...I don't know of any reason besides my lifestyle that I can't become skinny(er). Some people, it's medical. A lot of VETERANS, it is medical. So then, they get to wear G/Ws, while some goober 30-50lbs over, who's never served, and looks like a toolbag in ANY uniform just disobeys the rules?

[Ned]

And the wheel keeps turning . . .

The fact that this is an important and occasionally emotional issue does not change the basic nature of the problem which is both highly complex and inextricably interelated to other critical issues.

Beyond the basic issues of aesthetics (upon which there will never be consensus, ever), there are important issues including CAP-USAF relationships, internal CAP governance issues, and respect shown to the growing diversity of our membership.  To name just a few.  You can't "solve" one without creating new or additional problems with the others.

But the real problem here is

• The solution depends on how the problem is framed and vice-versa (i.e., the problem definition depends on the solution)
  
• Stakeholders have radically different world views and different frames for understanding the problem.
  
• The constraints that the problem is subject to and the resources needed to solve it change over time.
  
• The problem is never solved definitively.

Which is what academics call a "wicked problem" precisely because it is almost impossible to resolve to everyone's satisfaction.

We've talked about this before, of course, here.

Unfortuneately, this is one of the areas where a significant number of members feel passionately that their particular view is correct, and another significant group of members feel just as passionately that they are correct - and the viewpoints are incompatible.  We talk about it a lot.  We talk about it emotionally.  Sometimes we disparage other members simply because they hold a different opinion about the "solution."

And as we have noted before, there are methods used in these kinds of political situations (in the sense of trying to influence opinion to try to reach consensus): collaborative approaches like the NUC (and all of its various predecessors), authoritative approaches (that National Commander just decides, and that's it); and competative stategies (some sort of national election / poll, and the losers just suck it up.)

Obviously, there are advantages and disadvantages to each of these startegies.  Someone will always think of themselves as a "loser" and oppressed by the (NUC, CC, majority, etc.).

So we will continue to talk about it here on CAPTalk until the sun grows dim and dies. 

[Eclipse]

So we will continue to talk about it here on CAPTalk until the sun grows dim and dies.

Or until the National leadership provides a solution, which for whatever reason seems to be the only option never explored.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Lord and Nin-

You are behaving like bullies to Thrawn and Panache. I thought you were better than that.

[Ned]

Or until the National leadership provides a solution, which for whatever reason seems to be the only option never explored.

Ahh, yes.  The Magic Solution To Make Everyone Happy.

Should have thought of that while I was still part of the leadership.

Darn.


(For everyone else, the current uniform constellation is the compromise "solution."  No one is very happy with it, but that is sort of the nature of compromises.  But it will have to do until a significant number of members magically change the opinions of the rest of the membership.  So let's keep debating it right here on CAPTalk - where less than 1% of the membership participates.  That'll work.)

[Eclipse]

Saying things are "hard" does nothing to actually address the problem except give those charged with
the fix the ability to disavow the responsibility.

To say the multiform is a compromise is being benevolent, however if the choice is
who should be happier, the membership or the USAF, the "win" should be towards the
percentage of the membership most greatly affected on which CAP relies on for its very existence.

One >easy< fix in the interim is to actually enforce the existing regulations, across the board,
with ramifications for non-compliance, especially willful or repeated.  As I have said before,
if the willful offenders in the leadership (at all levels) were actually held to the standard they espouse,
things would change overnight.

Seeing photos of the National Commander handing flags and awards to members in USAF-style uniforms
who are clearly not in compliance, not to mention photos posted by NHQ on the national feeds that
regularly show blatant violations doesn't exactly generate a warm and fuzzy for the hardworking average member
trying to do the right thing, nor does it tend to support the idea that NHQ actually cares at all.

[Garibaldi]

Or until the National leadership provides a solution, which for whatever reason seems to be the only option never explored.

Ahh, yes.  The Magic Solution To Make Everyone Happy.

Should have thought of that while I was still part of the leadership.

Darn.


(For everyone else, the current uniform constellation is the compromise "solution."  No one is very happy with it, but that is sort of the nature of compromises.  But it will have to do until a significant number of members magically change the opinions of the rest of the membership.  So let's keep debating it right here on CAPTalk - where less than 1% of the membership participates.  That'll work.)

Ouch. That stings a bit. And I don't even have a dog in this fight.

[Garibaldi]

Lord and Nin-

You are behaving like bullies to Thrawn and Panache. I thought you were better than that.

I'm not seeing it that way. Panache has a list of grievances that culminate in his decision to leave, which is his right, and Thrawn, both here and in other threads, can seem a bit belligerent at times. AT TIMES, I say. I am not defending anyone or going against anyone. People have gripes and opinions, and when said grievances, opinions, and/or gripes are aired, personalities come out. Some, like the ever-popular Lord/Eclipse "feud" seem to take on a life of their own. And then there are always threads and issues that make most people's blood boil. At times, I have written a response to something that p****s me right the ***k off and I have to re-write and re-write and re-write until it resembles nothing of the hot-headed reply I had originally set out to do. Not always, but often.

This is a message board. No policy, that I know of, has been enacted because of the opinions or "fact" presented here, so it really is just a place to vent, discuss, and on occasion, argue to the point of a stroke when blood pressure rises. I don't see bullying, I just see people arguing, standing their ground, sometimes slinging mud, but at the end of the day, the only option is to take a deep breath, suck it up, realize we are for the most part adults, and move on.