Quick SM Uniform Question

[The14th]

I've checked the 39-1, but figured I could get a quick answer on here to clarify. As a SM without grade, I don't wear any epaulets on my blue AF style shirts correct? Just CAP insignia on the collars?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

No epaulets, CAP cutouts on the collars.  You are correct.  That goes for both the AF and aviator shirts.

I have seen new SM's wear the blank epaulets (for NCO's to pin their grade to), and while it looks good and I would be in favour of it being authorised, it is not authorised.

You'll get your butterbars soon enough.

[The14th]

That was my main concern. I noticed those blank one's with just the CAP on them, but had thought we wear none. Just wanted to double check (I hate being out of regs and want to have everything right beforehand)

Thanks!

[fokkerfrenzy]

If memory serves, blank epaulets was something that was added to the new 39-1 that hasn't been released yet.  It seems like some people are jumping the gun.

[vento]

No epaulets, CAP cutouts on the collars.  You are correct.  That goes for both the AF and aviator shirts.

I have seen new SM's wear the blank epaulets (for NCO's to pin their grade to), and while it looks good and I would be in favour of it being authorised, it is not authorised.

You'll get your butterbars soon enough.

For the white aviator shirt, no epaulets and no CAP cutouts.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

No epaulets, CAP cutouts on the collars.  You are correct.  That goes for both the AF and aviator shirts.

I have seen new SM's wear the blank epaulets (for NCO's to pin their grade to), and while it looks good and I would be in favour of it being authorised, it is not authorised.

You'll get your butterbars soon enough.

For the white aviator shirt, no epaulets and no CAP cutouts.

Are you sure about the cutouts on the aviator shirt?

[Eclipse]

That is correct no cutouts on the whites.

[Spaceman3750]

If memory serves, blank epaulets was something that was added to the new 39-1 that hasn't been released yet.  It seems like some people are jumping the gun.

That's been going on for years, at least since I was a SMWOG almost 5 years ago.

[Eclipse]

They were originally and till intended for NCO pins, but never used.

Misinformed Commanders have been letting newbs wear them for years - it was one short-hand way, frankly
to tell when you had a command issue at a unit.  If you see a new member wearing blank epaulets, time
for a couple of conversations.

[Walkman]

That's been going on for years, at least since I was a SMWOG almost 5 years ago.

I made that mistake at the beginning as well, before I learned how to use 39-1. I was ordering my 1st round of insignia from VG and saw the blank slides and "Oh, that must be what I should wear". Was corrected the first time.

[The14th]

That's been going on for years, at least since I was a SMWOG almost 5 years ago.

I made that mistake at the beginning as well, before I learned how to use 39-1. I was ordering my 1st round of insignia from VG and saw the blank slides and "Oh, that must be what I should wear". Was corrected the first time.

I noticed them on there and was wondering, as well. But they say on the description something about being for SM NCOs, so that's why I double checked to make sure I didn't need to order those. I could do the NCO thing, but am working towards the Officer route.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Those blank slides were taking the cheap route out, especially since there were embroidered slides made for SNCO's.

I personally don't see the use for those blank slides at all, since the Air Force doesn't even have SNCO slides any more.

[NIN]

First time I saw those I said "oh,  for CAP NCOs. Of course! "

Then I saw some a buck SM wearing 'em and said "ok,  what unit is that guy from?  Someone needs a boot to the head!"

"Step away from the vanguard website! "

[The14th]

One more quick question. Do SMs with no grade wear the NCO or Officer style flight cap?

[Garibaldi]

One more quick question. Do SMs with no grade wear the NCO or Officer style flight cap?

Most say the NCO flight cap, the one with the dark blue braid on it. You don't get the officer cap until you promote to 2nd Lt.

[NIN]

IIRC that changes with the new 39-1 to help keep costs down

[BHartman007]

I saw at least one guy wearing the blank slides at wing conference last month. I wanted to say something, but I didn't.

[RogueLeader]

I saw at least one guy wearing the blank slides at wing conference last month. I wanted to say something, but I didn't.

I'm sure some units are already transitioning to the new CAPM 39-1, to where that would be correct.  I know that it's not official yet, but it is a cost saving measure against a mid-grade change. . .

[Майор Хаткевич]

How is getting a currently not required item a cost saving measure? More like they've been doing it wrong for 10+years.

[lordmonar]

How is getting a currently not required item a cost saving measure? More like they've been doing it wrong for 10+years.

+1

[PHall]

Those blank slides were taking the cheap route out, especially since there were embroidered slides made for SNCO's.

I personally don't see the use for those blank slides at all, since the Air Force doesn't even have SNCO slides any more.

They still have them. They're worn on the sweaters. (Kinda hard to sew stripes on those!)

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Those blank slides were taking the cheap route out, especially since there were embroidered slides made for SNCO's.

I personally don't see the use for those blank slides at all, since the Air Force doesn't even have SNCO slides any more.

They still have them. They're worn on the sweaters. (Kinda hard to sew stripes on those!)

Indeed?  I did not know that they were still worn at all...I just figured that MSgt and above put their pin-on metal insignia on the epaulettes like lower-ranking NCO/enlisted.

A quick check to AFPC web site illustrated your point...I only wanted to see a picture because it's been forever and a day since I've been around AF SNCO's.  I certainly wasn't doubting you.

http://www.afpc.af.mil/dress/optional.asp

WRT Airman's flight cap...it may be a cost-saving measure to allow SMWOG to wear the Officer cap, but I do not approve of it as SMWOG are not (yet) officers.

When I joined CAP in 1993 it was impressed upon me in no uncertain terms that I did not wear the Officer cap until getting my butterbars.  I didn't argue and purchased and wore the Airman flight cap.

Perhaps units could keep a limited stock of Airman flight caps for new members, and then they'd go back to the unit when the member got their butterbars?

I just don't think it sends a good message, especially to AF personnel and to cadets - I had a brief dust-up with a cadet commander at one of my former units about that...the young man had just got his Cadet 2nd Lt and decided to wear an officer's cap.  I told him (in a friendly manner and off to the side, semi-privately) he was out of regs and he said "I'm an officer."  I told him to check 39-1 but he remained obstinate.  Finally I ordered him to remove it and he griped to the unit CC about it...which did no good since the unit CC knew the regs; it was just that I saw him wearing it before the CC did.

Neither he or his daddy liked me much after that.  Oh, well...you can't make someone like you.

[MSG Mac]

My stock reply to that cadets is " Your grade is CADET, you're rank as a cadet is 2LT".

[Panache]

My stock reply to that cadets is " Your grade is CADET, you're rank as a cadet is 2LT".

*your rank

I apologize in advance for the Grammar Nazi behavior.  But I can't resist...

[MSG Mac]

Auto spell at 2:30 a.m.

[FW]

So much for a "Quick SM Uniform Question"... LOL   

[AlphaSigOU]

So much for a "Quick SM Uniform Question"... LOL   

Quick question, but a voluminous answer!

[Panache]

So much for a "Quick SM Uniform Question"... LOL   

Quick question, but a voluminous answer!

But aren't they all?   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

A simple answer on CAPTalk?

[The14th]

After a couple of months of back and forth, I decided that I'd keep my E5 rank and serve in CAP as a SSGT. And I believe I have my uniforms squared away for a CAP NCO, as I kind of had to figure out myself since our Squadron has never had a SM NCO.

[gshayd]

Just joined up at the end of May and requested my old NCO rank back after completing Level 1.   I have the BDUs, Class B, Gore Tex and the lightweight Blue jacket figured out.   In the winter when it is cooler I sometimes like to wear a cardigan sweater inside .  Our older building is kind of drafty.  The current 39-1 calls for the grey epaulets.  I tried ordering some SMSgt grey CAP epaulets but got my money refunded as they were not in stock. I notice in the draft 39-1 it says use the grey epaulet and metal rank.  They have those and I can get metal rank.  I am in no rush to get the sweater since I have the lightweight blue jacket.

I am still suffering from sticker shock at my uniform expenses..lol   I am retired and can use AAFES which I did for some items.

About this AF certification stuff on uniforms. I have purchased stuff from AAFES online and in Clothing sales. The only place I have seen it is on the blue tie. Everything else has the DLA label and the Mfg label and the instruction label.

[lordmonar]

Stand by to stand by.

The new 39-1 should be out in the next week or so (or so I have been told by a little birdie).....and the NEW NCO stripes should be in it....which means more sticker shock.

[SarDragon]

The DLA label works instead of the label called for in the reg. I'm not even sure that style label is still used. I haven't bought any AF stuff in many years.

[gshayd]

Which is the reason I have only had 1 pair of BDUs and 1 SS blue shirt with the USAF Chevrons. I did notice that with the CAP chevrons that the requirement to wear the CAP cutouts on the collar is gone in the new 39-1.   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The CAP chevrons to me look a bit garish.

It would have been, to me, quite sufficient to swop out the star for our historic triangle-and-prop device.

[NC Hokie]

The CAP chevrons to me look a bit garish.

It would have been, to me, quite sufficient to swop out the star for our historic triangle-and-prop device.

The cynic in me says that they went with the obvious "CAP" because the tri-prop fails to meet the distinctiveness standard because USAF personnel don't know that the tri-prop is a CAP emblem.

[Storm Chaser]

It's not just about distinctiveness; the insignia has to be distinctive from a distance. I suspect that from a distance, a white propeller over blue background is hard to distinguish from a white star over blue background. Perhaps they should've made the propellers red. Or better yet, but the CAP triangle with propellers inside the blue circle.

[Panache]

It's not just about distinctiveness; the insignia has to be distinctive from a distance. I suspect that from a distance, a white propeller over blue background is hard to distinguish from a white star over blue background. Perhaps they should've made the propellers red. Or better yet, but the CAP triangle with propellers inside the blue circle.

Agreed, but I imagine the counter-argument would be "adding another color to the embroidery would drive up costs!"

Personally, I think the scarlet CAP tri-prop in a white triangle would have been far more distinctive (both at-a-distance and low-light) than the new design.  But, hey, what do I know?

[lordmonar]

But, hey, what do I know?

You know nothing John Snow. 

The key here....it is CAP-USAF and the Air Staff that determines what is disincentive enough in low light and at a distance.

[Panache]

But, hey, what do I know?

You know nothing John Snow. 

The key here....it is CAP-USAF and the Air Staff that determines what is disincentive enough in low light and at a distance.

Not debating that.  It's rather encouraging that CAP and Air Staff is so inclusive that they're willing to hire the blind.

[lordmonar]

like

[Eclipse]

I proudly state I had to look that up...

[Shuman 14]

It's not just about distinctiveness; the insignia has to be distinctive from a distance. I suspect that from a distance, a white propeller over blue background is hard to distinguish from a white star over blue background. Perhaps they should've made the propellers red. Or better yet, but the CAP triangle with propellers inside the blue circle.

Agreed, but I imagine the counter-argument would be "adding another color to the embroidery would drive up costs!"

Personally, I think the scarlet CAP tri-prop in a white triangle would have been far more distinctive (both at-a-distance and low-light) than the new design.  But, hey, what do I know?

Concur.  :clap:

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I know all about "low-light/at-a-distance."  But they have never quantified it (how low is the light?  at what distance?  in what weather conditions?), and in virtually all cases it depends on who is observing.

[Panache]

I know all about "low-light/at-a-distance."  But they have never quantified it

And they never will.  As it is, it's a great tool that allows them to arbitrarily reject items they don't like for whatever reason and use the never-defined "low light/at-a-distance" standards as justification.

[Al Sayre]

1x10^-6 candela/m^2 @ 1000 furlongs

[Eclipse]

MONTGOMERY, AL - Lt Col Tommy Smothers, recently appointed CAP-USAF Inspector General demonstrates the latest in
"Low-Light Insignia Identification and Targeting systems" from Soldier Systems.

Said Lt Col Smothers, "We can't have just anyone wandering around looking like might have some tenuous similarity to a military organization,
and this will insure no one sneaks in a badge that kinda sorta looks military-ish..."

He went on, "...why just last year we had a Senior Airman who dropped his son off for a Civil Air Patrol encampment and accidentally
saluted the CAP 'Major' who had volunteered to take a week off without pay to train his son.  The Airman was 'super-sad' for a week
due to his mistake and, after being released from 6 months sick leave, now makes it his mission to go on every military-related forum
and Facebook page to insure others don't make the same mistake..."

"This is just force protection, nothing more, nothing less...".

[Garibaldi]

MONTGOMERY, AL - Lt Col Tommy Smothers, recently appointed CAP-USAF Inspector General demonstrates the latest in
"Low-Light Insignia Identification and Targeting systems" from Soldier Systems.

Said Lt Col Smothers, "We can't have just anyone wandering around looking like might have some tenuous similarity to a military organization,
and this will insure no one sneaks in a badge that kinda sorta looks military-ish..."

He went on, "...why just last year we had a Senior Airman who dropped his son off for a Civil Air Patrol encampment and accidentally
saluted the CAP 'Major' who had volunteered to take a week off without pay to train his son.  The Airman was 'super-sad' for a week
due to his mistake and, after being released from 6 months sick leave, now makes it his mission to go on every military-related forum
and Facebook page to insure others don't make the same mistake..."

"This is just force protection, nothing more, nothing less...".

Did his brother Dick approve before he spoke to the media?

[Eclipse]

^ He's behind him in the photo, but can't be seen without the NVGs.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

And they never will.  As it is, it's a great tool that allows them to arbitrarily reject items they don't like for whatever reason and use the never-defined "low light/at-a-distance" standards as justification.

Kind of their Sword of Damocles that hangs over the heads of all those who would think of changing the status quo viz. uniforms.

[Panache]

He went on, "...why just last year we had a Senior Airman who dropped his son off for a Civil Air Patrol encampment and accidentally saluted the CAP 'Major' who had volunteered to take a week off without pay to train his son.  The Airman was 'super-sad' for a week due to his mistake and, after being released from 6 months sick leave, now makes it his mission to go on every military-related forum and Facebook page to insure others don't make the same mistake..."

"That CAP Major was just standing there, at encampment, practically trolling for salutes!"

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

"That CAP Major was just standing there, at encampment, practically trolling for salutes!"

Yelling at Airmen to get over there and show proper respect to a CAP Major.

[foo]

No epaulets, CAP cutouts on the collars.  You are correct.  That goes for both the AF and aviator shirts.

Apparently this is changed as of last Thursday?

CAPM 39-1 26 JUNE 2014

1.4.1. Adult individuals without grade pursuing officer promotion will wear the USAF-style or Corporate-style uniform as for Officers without any rank insignia.

1.4.1.1. USAF-style Uniforms. With the Service Dress Uniform (Class A), these individuals will wear the officer-style service coat, with sleeve braid, officer-style flight cap, US collar insignia, and gray epaulet sleeves without rank insignia. With the Blue Service Uniform (Class B), these individuals will wear the officer style flight cap and gray epaulet sleeve without grade insignia.

1.4.1.2. Corporate Style Uniforms. On the Corporate-style Field Uniform, no collar insignia or rank insignia on the hat will be worn. On the Aviator shirt, gray epaulets without grade insignia will be worn.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I noticed that.  It did change.

[Eclipse]

More places where two committees didn't speak.

On one hand you have some insignia like cutouts being eliminated because they
are only worn for a short time and there's no point to the expense, and then
on the other you have nonsense like this.

There's literally no point or reason for it.  Just leave the epaulets sleeveless until
you have some sort of grade to put there.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I remember a lot of SMWOG's wearing the blank greys because they thought that was the "insignia" for SMWOG.

[lordmonar]

More places where two committees didn't speak.

On one hand you have some insignia like cutouts being eliminated because they
are only worn for a short time and there's no point to the expense, and then
on the other you have nonsense like this.

There's literally no point or reason for it.  Just leave the epaulets sleeveless until
you have some sort of grade to put there.

Ahhh.....but then you might be mistake for a real USAF Airman Basic.   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

More places where two committees didn't speak.

On one hand you have some insignia like cutouts being eliminated because they
are only worn for a short time and there's no point to the expense, and then
on the other you have nonsense like this.

There's literally no point or reason for it.  Just leave the epaulets sleeveless until
you have some sort of grade to put there.

Ahhh.....but then you might be mistake for a real USAF Airman Basic.   

Except for the grey nameplate and the CAP cutouts on the collars.

[MacGruff]

Except for the grey nameplate and the CAP cutouts on the collars.

But ...  there are no longer CAP cutouts on these uniforms...   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

No, there aren't.  But we still have the grey nameplates.

[Panache]

No, there aren't.  But we still have the grey nameplates.

In low light, and at a distance, you can easily confuse gray for blue...

(*runs*)