CAP Seal Background Color

[MSG Mac]

As a brief example, I know a member who recently applied for and received equivalency for his military training in the professional development program. He had to jump through a whole series of hoops that were not in the regulation to accomplish this. That entire process that he went through could have been far more simple had somebody just said "hey, whoa, what is the simplest way to accomplish that?" Instead  of taking a couple days, the process stretched into a couple weeks with several iterations of emailing documents around and people saying that the process as described in the manual wasn't the way things should go. Come on, this is not rocket surgery. This is a black and white, fairly straightforward, process that has been in place for years. Why can't we do it the absolute simplest way and stop wasting peoples time?

I've had to put in PD equivalents and never had a problem. get a copy of the diploma, or other proof of attendance and send it to the PD folks. If it's a course not listed in 50-17, just send a course description.

[Storm Chaser]

That's always been a "simple" process for me. I just call/e-mail NHQ directly and they take care of it quickly. If you try to use the chain of command for this, it can take weeks. Funny thing, CAP requires the use of the chain of command for smaller issues much more than the Air Force does. In the Air Force, many functions are decentralized and I'm not required to go through the squadron or group to get things resolved.

[Ratatouille]

I agree with Ned. 

The measure of an organization is what it accomplishes, not what it does along the way to produce that accomplishment. Bob has missed the mark in saying that trivia like seal background tells us something important about our organization. I agree it's a snafu and shows that we get lots of little administrative things wrong and can do better in that area. But, mission accomplishment is the metric. These aren't the droids we're looking for.

I gotta disagree.  I can't speak to CP or AE; I do MP and aircrew.  We can't keep pilots largely because of the bilizzard of administrivia. We don't get "lot's of little administrative things wrong", we get lot's of big administrative things wrong. We're burdened with useless process, and we waste people's time.

Waste. Time. Our finite resource. You want my help on Sunday? After a full day on Saturday that should have been a half day, but for the goofy, pointless hoops I had to jump through?

We aren't nearly as mission capable as could be, largely because we aren't focused, aren't efficient with our time, and haven't culled the trivial and concentrated on the essential

final rant.

As a ground-pounder, former CC and now a Cadet Programs Officer, I can absolutely say that the paperwork is unnecessary to the point of ridiculousness.

Take the new Medical and Emergency Contact forms. One of the uses for those forms is for it to be in your personnel file at your Squadron HQ. So let's say the bacon burgers finally get to me and I go into cardiac arrest during a Squadron Meeting. Do we really expect someone, in the middle of giving me CPR, to go unlock the filing cabinet, go through the 1/4 ream of paper in my file, and pull out my medical forms before the ambulance gets there? Do we expect the Paramedics to wait before packing me up and going on their way? Do we expect the hospital to read some random form from who knows where filled out who knows when for my blood type instead of cross typing my blood itself? Will they try to bill the insurance listed on this potentially years old form, or will they look through my wallet for my card or wait until my parents or girlfriend get there and ask them?

Does my Squadron Commander or whoever else has access to file need to know that I had ear infections 20+ years ago, or asthma in fifth grade? Does he need to know that I have Blue Cross and what my insurance policy number is? Or that I am taking Valtrex? And does it really take 4 pages of documents to get the information needed to call my parents if my plane goes down?

Don't even get me started on the forms a CC has to fill out annually. Every year Squadrons are required to fill out a Contributed Facilities Worksheet (CAPF 174). My Squadron met at the same place as our Group HQ, which our Group gets for free from our County Airport. At the very top of the form there is a checkbox for whether you have exclusive use of the facility. Per the form, if you check "No", you don't have to fill out the rest of the form.  Since 2 squadrons and Group meet there, I checked "NO" and submitted it as is. Wing bounced it back because I didn't fill out the part of the form that the form itself says I can leave blank. I asked WTF, but Wing said to fill out the part I didn't have to and my spirit had long since been crushed so I did what they wanted. Mind you, this is information Wing would already have from the identical form filled out by Group. And out Group is in the same building (but different wing) as our Wing HQ, so they knew what was up. Sure, I could have the form saved and just print it out again every year, but forms are sometimes changed, and if I have to take the time to check if the form online is new, I'm already halfway to having the thing filled out. And even then, occasionally Wing decides they will do a consolidated form and have us fill out an equivalent to CAPF 174 on an Excel file along with a bunch of other CAP and Wing forms. Naturally this Excel file changes every time someone and Wing notices a mistake or wants the information in a different way. CAPF 174 is just one form, but this is on top of all the other paperwork, not to mention actually running a @#(&@ Squadron!

[Ratatouille]

For the record, Valtrex is just the first medication that came to mind, not something I'm actually taking  :angel:

[THRAWN]

I agree with Ned. 

The measure of an organization is what it accomplishes, not what it does along the way to produce that accomplishment. Bob has missed the mark in saying that trivia like seal background tells us something important about our organization. I agree it's a snafu and shows that we get lots of little administrative things wrong and can do better in that area. But, mission accomplishment is the metric. These aren't the droids we're looking for.

I gotta disagree.  I can't speak to CP or AE; I do MP and aircrew.  We can't keep pilots largely because of the bilizzard of administrivia. We don't get "lot's of little administrative things wrong", we get lot's of big administrative things wrong. We're burdened with useless process, and we waste people's time.

Waste. Time. Our finite resource. You want my help on Sunday? After a full day on Saturday that should have been a half day, but for the goofy, pointless hoops I had to jump through?

We aren't nearly as mission capable as could be, largely because we aren't focused, aren't efficient with our time, and haven't culled the trivial and concentrated on the essential

final rant.

As a ground-pounder, former CC and now a Cadet Programs Officer, I can absolutely say that the paperwork is unnecessary to the point of ridiculousness.

Take the new Medical and Emergency Contact forms. One of the uses for those forms is for it to be in your personnel file at your Squadron HQ. So let's say the bacon burgers finally get to me and I go into cardiac arrest during a Squadron Meeting. Do we really expect someone, in the middle of giving me CPR, to go unlock the filing cabinet, go through the 1/4 ream of paper in my file, and pull out my medical forms before the ambulance gets there? Do we expect the Paramedics to wait before packing me up and going on their way? Do we expect the hospital to read some random form from who knows where filled out who knows when for my blood type instead of cross typing my blood itself? Will they try to bill the insurance listed on this potentially years old form, or will they look through my wallet for my card or wait until my parents or girlfriend get there and ask them?

Does my Squadron Commander or whoever else has access to file need to know that I had ear infections 20+ years ago, or asthma in fifth grade? Does he need to know that I have Blue Cross and what my insurance policy number is? Or that I am taking Valtrex? And does it really take 4 pages of documents to get the information needed to call my parents if my plane goes down?

Don't even get me started on the forms a CC has to fill out annually. Every year Squadrons are required to fill out a Contributed Facilities Worksheet (CAPF 174). My Squadron met at the same place as our Group HQ, which our Group gets for free from our County Airport. At the very top of the form there is a checkbox for whether you have exclusive use of the facility. Per the form, if you check "No", you don't have to fill out the rest of the form.  Since 2 squadrons and Group meet there, I checked "NO" and submitted it as is. Wing bounced it back because I didn't fill out the part of the form that the form itself says I can leave blank. I asked WTF, but Wing said to fill out the part I didn't have to and my spirit had long since been crushed so I did what they wanted. Mind you, this is information Wing would already have from the identical form filled out by Group. And out Group is in the same building (but different wing) as our Wing HQ, so they knew what was up. Sure, I could have the form saved and just print it out again every year, but forms are sometimes changed, and if I have to take the time to check if the form online is new, I'm already halfway to having the thing filled out. And even then, occasionally Wing decides they will do a consolidated form and have us fill out an equivalent to CAPF 174 on an Excel file along with a bunch of other CAP and Wing forms. Naturally this Excel file changes every time someone and Wing notices a mistake or wants the information in a different way. CAPF 174 is just one form, but this is on top of all the other paperwork, not to mention actually running a @#(&@ Squadron!

The paperwork is all part of running a "@#(&@ squadron". Couple easy fixes:

1. Keep the 174 from previous years, and just check the form date. If that hasn't changed, submit. EACH unit is required to submit the form. That means each chartered entity. It takes about 5 minutes to complete and submit.

(Before I go on...explain this.....And out Group is in the same building (but different wing) as our Wing HQ, so they knew what was up....how is your group in the same building as your wing hq, but it's a different wing?)

2. Take the 161 and make it page one of all of your 45 and 66's. No searching if the info is needed, it's right there. And it's a lot better than previous editions.

3. Have your admin shop set uip a schedule to review the info on the 161. Once a year, on the members birthday, pull the file, make any changes, don't look at it again unless it's needed. Make sure your members know that they are responsible for the info, and if there are changes, they need to provide a new form.

4. Yes, the EMS folks will look at the form. It's better than you standing there stammering about how you don't know if Cadet Tenthumbs has any allergies or is on any medication.

[LSThiker]

(Before I go on...explain this.....And out Group is in the same building (but different wing) as our Wing HQ, so they knew what was up....how is your group in the same building as your wing hq, but it's a different wing?)

I think he/she means different wing of the building, not a different CAP wing.

[Eclipse]

4. Yes, the EMS folks will look at the form. It's better than you standing there stammering about how you don't know if Cadet Tenthumbs has any allergies or is on any medication.

EMS isn't going to wait or care for you to open a file drawer and look up medical history.   Any allergies or medication
issues that are life-threatening enough to be needed by EMS should be on a medic alert tag or tattoo, not in a drawer.

They may ask about allergies in passing as they are loading up the member into the ambulance, and from there it's not
CAP's problem any more.  No one in that case cares if you are lactose intolerant or allergic to cats.

At all major activities and ES functions, the emergency contact form is supposed to be on the member's person.
Having it anywhere else is basically useless, and while I don't personally care about that kind of nonsense, since privacy no
longer exists in the way most people think it does, it does open the door to those conversations.

CAP won't be getting anything on these forms from me any more.  They have no need or use for the information
and it's a waste of my time.  They certainly have absolutely no need for my medical insurance information or my GP's name, period.
That information isn't needed until you are either admitted or paying a bill, and in either case at that point I am either conscious,
dead, or a loved one is involved, but CAP isn't on that call list.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I have much of my pertinent medical history (including medications taken and the doctors that prescribe them) in an "Emergency Contacts" section of my cell phone, which I am very rarely without.  The section also includes a Do Not Resuscitate order and how to contact my pastor, if necessary.

The new CAPF161 is reinventing the wheel (CAPF60) when it did not need to be reinvented.

[Ratatouille]

I agree with Ned. 

The measure of an organization is what it accomplishes, not what it does along the way to produce that accomplishment. Bob has missed the mark in saying that trivia like seal background tells us something important about our organization. I agree it's a snafu and shows that we get lots of little administrative things wrong and can do better in that area. But, mission accomplishment is the metric. These aren't the droids we're looking for.

I gotta disagree.  I can't speak to CP or AE; I do MP and aircrew.  We can't keep pilots largely because of the bilizzard of administrivia. We don't get "lot's of little administrative things wrong", we get lot's of big administrative things wrong. We're burdened with useless process, and we waste people's time.

Waste. Time. Our finite resource. You want my help on Sunday? After a full day on Saturday that should have been a half day, but for the goofy, pointless hoops I had to jump through?

We aren't nearly as mission capable as could be, largely because we aren't focused, aren't efficient with our time, and haven't culled the trivial and concentrated on the essential

final rant.

As a ground-pounder, former CC and now a Cadet Programs Officer, I can absolutely say that the paperwork is unnecessary to the point of ridiculousness.

Take the new Medical and Emergency Contact forms. One of the uses for those forms is for it to be in your personnel file at your Squadron HQ. So let's say the bacon burgers finally get to me and I go into cardiac arrest during a Squadron Meeting. Do we really expect someone, in the middle of giving me CPR, to go unlock the filing cabinet, go through the 1/4 ream of paper in my file, and pull out my medical forms before the ambulance gets there? Do we expect the Paramedics to wait before packing me up and going on their way? Do we expect the hospital to read some random form from who knows where filled out who knows when for my blood type instead of cross typing my blood itself? Will they try to bill the insurance listed on this potentially years old form, or will they look through my wallet for my card or wait until my parents or girlfriend get there and ask them?

Does my Squadron Commander or whoever else has access to file need to know that I had ear infections 20+ years ago, or asthma in fifth grade? Does he need to know that I have Blue Cross and what my insurance policy number is? Or that I am taking Valtrex? And does it really take 4 pages of documents to get the information needed to call my parents if my plane goes down?

Don't even get me started on the forms a CC has to fill out annually. Every year Squadrons are required to fill out a Contributed Facilities Worksheet (CAPF 174). My Squadron met at the same place as our Group HQ, which our Group gets for free from our County Airport. At the very top of the form there is a checkbox for whether you have exclusive use of the facility. Per the form, if you check "No", you don't have to fill out the rest of the form.  Since 2 squadrons and Group meet there, I checked "NO" and submitted it as is. Wing bounced it back because I didn't fill out the part of the form that the form itself says I can leave blank. I asked WTF, but Wing said to fill out the part I didn't have to and my spirit had long since been crushed so I did what they wanted. Mind you, this is information Wing would already have from the identical form filled out by Group. And out Group is in the same building (but different wing) as our Wing HQ, so they knew what was up. Sure, I could have the form saved and just print it out again every year, but forms are sometimes changed, and if I have to take the time to check if the form online is new, I'm already halfway to having the thing filled out. And even then, occasionally Wing decides they will do a consolidated form and have us fill out an equivalent to CAPF 174 on an Excel file along with a bunch of other CAP and Wing forms. Naturally this Excel file changes every time someone and Wing notices a mistake or wants the information in a different way. CAPF 174 is just one form, but this is on top of all the other paperwork, not to mention actually running a @#(&@ Squadron!

The paperwork is all part of running a "@#(&@ squadron". Couple easy fixes:

1. Keep the 174 from previous years, and just check the form date. If that hasn't changed, submit. EACH unit is required to submit the form. That means each chartered entity. It takes about 5 minutes to complete and submit.

(Before I go on...explain this.....And out Group is in the same building (but different wing) as our Wing HQ, so they knew what was up....how is your group in the same building as your wing hq, but it's a different wing?)

2. Take the 161 and make it page one of all of your 45 and 66's. No searching if the info is needed, it's right there. And it's a lot better than previous editions.

3. Have your admin shop set uip a schedule to review the info on the 161. Once a year, on the members birthday, pull the file, make any changes, don't look at it again unless it's needed. Make sure your members know that they are responsible for the info, and if there are changes, they need to provide a new form.

4. Yes, the EMS folks will look at the form. It's better than you standing there stammering about how you don't know if Cadet Tenthumbs has any allergies or is on any medication.

1. Hunting down the form to check the date is already half of the work to fill out a form providing Wing with redundant information. There is also the issue that despite what the form says (Don't fill out Part B if you don't have exclusive use of the property), Wing still makes me fill out the entire form.  LSThiker is right. My Squadron meets at our Group's HQ, which is in a different wing of the same building as Wing HQ. That matters little, since we don't have exclusive use, which means we shouldn't have to fill out the full CAPF 174 per the form itself.

2. It takes a non-zero amount of time to go to the room with the personnel file cabinet, find the key or get the combination entered, find the file, and bring it to wherever Cadet Nicekid went down. Go ahead and time yourself doing this, and multiply it by two because you're freaking out because one of your Cadets' heart just arrested. In a real no-@#&* emergency EMS is not going to sit around waiting for you to do this before packing up Nicekid.

3. And why does my Admin Officer need to know who my primary care physician is, or that I had asthma, or whether I have health insurance or not? CAP doesn't pay for my doctor's bills and doesn't require I be particularly healthy to participate, so what business is it of theirs who would pay for my ER visit if I drop, or that I was born with a tail?

4. If a Cadet is arresting, seizing, or something like that, EMS is not going to wait around. They are going to pack him up into the ambulance and be on their way to the hospital with the quickness. Most EMS crews are two people. Once they are in the ambulance, one will drive and the other will be treating. The one treating is not going to stop treating so he can read a CAPF 160 with 46 (yes, 46!) different checkboxes on the off-chance he will somehow connect Nicekid's past constipation (!) with his current condition. As a former EMT, yes, it's nice to know a persons' allergies, but not knowing is not the end of the world. Penicillin and Sulfa (the medication allergies I heard most often) are, as far as I know, not drugs given in a pre-hospital setting. At least half the time when I asked a patient what their allergies were they said "seasonal" or something equally useless.

The paperwork demand in CAP is getting to be a tad ridiculous. There is so much of it that I doubt most of it gets more than a cursory review before it is put in a filing cabinet and never seen again until (maybe) an SUI. If the data isn't being used in any meaningful way, what is the point of collecting it? Is there a benefit to keeping every message page from every radio operator from a SAREX that happened eight months ago? Even if it all gets scanned in somewhere, will anyone actually go back and read it?

It seems to me that the increase in paperwork has to do with creation of fiefdoms more than anything. It reminds me a lot of high school. Ms. Filkenstein would give us 4 hours of reading due the next day for Global History, because Global History was super important and we totally needed to know this ASAP. Except Fr. Smith gave us 3 hours of reading for English because English is also super important, and we also have a Chem Lab Report due because Chemistry is the basis of everything. So now I have 10 hours of homework, all from teachers who think only their class matters, and somewhere in there I should probably sleep so I can stay awake through the next day's spanish class. It' like that in CAP. Chaplain Corp wants you to fill out a bunch of forms, ES wants forms, DDR wants forms, CP wants forms, Safety wants forms and a regularly-scheduled briefing, and to watch the same video for the 6th time since you joined CAP, etc, etc for every department of CAP, all seemingly forgetting that at some point you need some time to get actual missions done.

[Ratatouille]

4. Yes, the EMS folks will look at the form. It's better than you standing there stammering about how you don't know if Cadet Tenthumbs has any allergies or is on any medication.

EMS isn't going to wait or care for you to open a file drawer and look up medical history.   Any allergies or medication
issues that are life-threatening enough to be needed by EMS should be on a medic alert tag or tattoo, not in a drawer.

They may ask about allergies in passing as they are loading up the member into the ambulance, and from there it's not
CAP's problem any more.  No one in that case cares if you are lactose intolerant or allergic to cats.

At all major activities and ES functions, the emergency contact form is supposed to be on the member's person.
Having it anywhere else is basically useless, and while I don't personally care about that kind of nonsense, since privacy no
longer exists in the way most people think it does, it does open the door to those conversations.

CAP won't be getting anything on these forms from me any more.  They have no need or use for the information
and it's a waste of my time.  They certainly have absolutely no need for my medical insurance information or my GP's name, period.
That information isn't needed until you are either admitted or paying a bill, and in either case at that point I am either conscious,
dead, or a loved one is involved, but CAP isn't on that call list.

This is one of the very very few times I agree completely with an Eclipse post. It is far too early in the day for something this freaky, and I am all out of coffee.

[SunDog]

Yep, just don't do it. . .absent any real enforcement, or follow-up, it'll fall through the cracks like so many other pointless mandates. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Eclipse is on the money on this one.

The CAPF 161, and especially the 160, are almost the epitome of over-intrusiveness.

I will keep a 161 on my person and one for my squadron CC - period.

I already lost out on an opportunity because I did not want to do a CAPF160.  I missed a squadron trip to WPAFB because I would not submit one.

[JeffDG]

Eclipse is on the money on this one.

The CAPF 161, and especially the 160, are almost the epitome of over-intrusiveness.

I will keep a 161 on my person and one for my squadron CC - period.

I already lost out on an opportunity because I did not want to do a CAPF160.  I missed a squadron trip to WPAFB because I would not submit one.

Submit one with most of the fields listed as "NYB"

If asked, simply say "None of your business, and why, pray tell, are you reading my confidential medical form?"

[Ratatouille]

Yep, just don't do it. . .absent any real enforcement, or follow-up, it'll fall through the cracks like so many other pointless mandates.

I understand the sentiment, but let's say I participate in an activity where Wing or whoever says participants need to submit one. The OIC is my buddy, who understands why nobody needs to know about the inhaler I had for a month in 7th grade, and doesn't care if I submit one. Now something unrelated goes wrong, or some Wing muckety-muck demands to see the paperwork the OIC is holding. Now my buddy is taking heat because I didn't want to submit a stupid form. I've had the unfortunate experience of seeing Wing use paperwork goofs to railroad those who don't toe the line, and I certainly wouldn't want that to happen to anyone I care about.

Lying on the form is not a good idea in case the thing actually ends up being used at a hospital, so I'm not going to do that. So I fill out the stupid form, not because it serves any purpose, but because it's easier than not doing it.

If the forms we are filling out are only being done to avoid getting hassled, then what's the point? We might as well just spend all day filling out TPS Reports (with the revised cover sheet, of course).

[Eclipse]

There's a difference between "lying" and simply not providing information that is either non existent or none of CAP's business.

You also don't have to refuse to complete the form.  I have no issue with my wife's contact information for emergencies,
Just as "19 Paul says it all" for some police stations, N/A in the fields is an appropriate answer for everything else.

[CAPAPRN]

CAPR 160 3-2 also states that we should ONLY collect needed information, and does not prescribe that every situation needs a form 160, and the 161 is simply required to be on the person.  The 160 is really designed for encampment ("longer duration activities") specifically for the cadets at encampment, who may need a minute-clinic visit for a sprained ankle and the form can speed up history taking etc. (yes, mom will be called also). I don't know why a project officer would want a SM to submit a 160 for an airshow or a AFB visit- that is not required. That said, yes I agree with everyone that the form is poorly designed and intrusive, and there really should be a separate CADET encampment form, so that we aren't asking seniors intrusive questions. BTW, I am Master rated in health services, VP of the medical staff at a state VA hospital (as well as clinical faculty at Yale), have staffed encampments,  and NOBODY at NHQ ever asked me (or anybody else that I know and I know a lot of the senior HSO's including at least one who ran encampments) my opinion on this issue.

[Eclipse]

who may need a minute-clinic visit for a sprained ankle

A what now?

[CAPAPRN]

Urgent care visit- as in a visit to an outside provider that is not an ER for a non life threatening condition. Maybe minute-clinic is a regional term. - CW

[LSThiker]

Okay, wow.  So much misunderstanding of the HS Program and the CAPF 160/161.  So let me actually put the regulation citation:

Advise members to complete CAPF 160, CAP Member Health History Form, and CAPF 161, Emergency Information, annually or sooner if the information changes, and advise members to carry the forms in case of emergency while on CAP activities. Units will not maintain, store or require use of these forms for day-to-day use. The use and carrying of these forms is not always required, but members are encouraged to carry them for reference during activities for illness or emergency. Some activity or encampment commanders may require forms to be provided in advance for planning purposes. Health service officers advise these commanders on safe participation of members after reviewing CAP 160 series forms and assist in making needed preparations at an activity to make participation as safe as possible for members. The ultimate decision for participation in any activity rests with the commander.

So units are not to maintain the CAPF 160.  So the scenario of the EMTs waiting for someone to grab a CAPF 160 that is locked up at the squadron is already based on a false premise.  The proper use of the CAPF 160 is to be maintained on the person.  Some commanders may require it, realistically this is for encampment and NCSA type activities, for planning purposes.  It is not for dealing with emergencies at that activity.  You are not required to disclose any health related material.  The disclosure of that material is up to the person volunteering to disclose it. 

Despite what some people (not necessarily here) want to believe, CAP is not a healthcare or rescue organization.

Edit:  It took a little time to find the picture, but things like this, while noble and great, should not occur even if he is an EMT-P:

http://capblog.typepad.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/cap_jtfkatrina_714_sept_05_williams_0153.jpg

NOBODY at NHQ ever asked me (or anybody else that I know and I know a lot of the senior HSO's including at least one who ran encampments) my opinion on this issue.

You make it sound as though they were supposed to.  Frankly put, nobody at NHQ is obligated to ask you for your opinion.  NHQ has its own chief medical officer on staff and 8 region HSOs.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I will keep a 160 on my person.  However, I do not see why Someone At The Top felt the need to replace the CAPF 60, which I saw nothing wrong with.

Yes, I did get excluded from a visit to the Air Force Museum because I looked at the 161 and honestly could not believe how intrusive it was - especially for a day trip not even staying overnight.

However, the squadron CC required one from everyone - cadets AND seniors - and did not give a choice.  I cannot say what he would have done had I taken JeffDG's suggestion, but having known him as I did he probably would have asked me "Captain, what are you trying to do?" and would have been excluded from the trip anyway.

I have several disabilities that, if the 161 is filled out as intended, would require supporting documentation that would have probably led to a 10-page long form.