Reason for CAP mandating wear of the American flag patch on the BDU

[Eagle400]

I've been told that the reason CAP mandated wear of the American flag patch on the BDU was because the ultramarine blue nametapes and insignia weren't enough to clash against the woodland camouflage, so they needed another contrasting color.

Can anyone confirm this? 

[mikeylikey1]

UHH.......too many members forgot which Civil Air Patrol they were in, just looking at the Civil Air Patrol tape on the BDU's was too confusing.  This was way before the geniuses decided to throw U.S. on the tapes.  Good thing too, cause every time I forgot I was in the US CAP, I always seemed to forget to look at my flag patch.  Now all I have to do is look at my U.S. Civil Air Patrol tape! 

[LtCol White]

I've been told that the reason CAP mandated wear of the American flag patch on the BDU was because the ultramarine blue nametapes and insignia weren't enough to clash against the woodland camouflage, so they needed another contrasting color.

Can anyone confirm this? 

I don't know the real reason but that definitely wasn't it. Even Stevie Wonder can see a CAP member in BDU's.

[afgeo4]

Not to mention the fact that the US Army wears the flag the same way, so we'd still look like active duty military, even with a flag.

I sincerely think it was a two-fold reason. First, to be more patriotic. Even security guards wear the US flag! Second, to look more like the active duty military. At the time, all US Army soldiers and some USAF airmen wore reverse flags on their bdus. I'm guessing the suggestion was from a prior service soldier out of nostalgia and was supported by people from NHQ for the first reason.

Personally, even though I'm prior USAFR, the flag isn't an issue to me. I'm an American. I am proud to wear our nation's colors on my uniform. At worst, it reminds me that I'm in service to my country and not necessarily my corporate superiors.

[RiverAux]

Like most major CAP decisions, you have about a 10% chance of finding any documentation of why we did it, what alternatives were considered, or what we thought would happen.  The change to US Civil Air Patrol name tapes was literally about a 20 second speech from MG Pineda which didn't make a whole lot of sense.....thats it.  Probably happened about the same way for this change. 

[Al Sayre]

The answer is simple: Vanguard was overstocked.

[flyerthom]

UHH.......too many members forgot which Civil Air Patrol they were in, just looking at the Civil Air Patrol tape on the BDU's was too confusing.  This was way before the geniuses decided to throw U.S. on the tapes.  Good thing too, cause every time I forgot I was in the US CAP, I always seemed to forget to look at my flag patch.  Now all I have to do is look at my U.S. Civil Air Patrol tape! 

Well it's possible...

http://www.auscap.org.au/

[SAR-EMT1]

Ok, I just wanted to ask if there is a rule stating we cant have subdued tapes and flags?

I mean I MIGHT even go along with the US CAP tape and accept the Flag IF they were subdued.

Im not asking out of a desire to play AD but, the simple fact is: everytime Im in BDUs and see my reflection I cring. 

[DNall]

Ok, I just wanted to ask if there is a rule stating we cant have subdued tapes and flags?

I mean I MIGHT even go along with the US CAP tape and accept the Flag IF they were subdued.

Im not asking out of a desire to play AD but, the simple fact is: everytime Im in BDUs and see my reflection I cring. 

The Army wears color flags in the US, not that it matters. I don't really like wearing it cause it's not continuity with the AF.

Whcih saying that has gotten me jumped on by some when I go one to say we should wear fewer patches when the AF wears lots on BDUs. I don't like what the Af does on that subject, but I'd be happy to go along with it if our patches weren't a rainbow bright exposion of distracting & tacky color.

Certainly most of us know how you feel & are sympathetic. It's mainly a professional image meeting outsider expectations thing to me. Anyway, NO there is no rule as such, just the AF needing to approve requested changes, and those have to be justified in writing & considered by the AETC uniform board or the CC himself.

[lordmonar]

Certainly most of us know how you feel & are sympathetic. It's mainly a professional image meeting outsider expectations thing to me.

Then why are you so adamant about getting rid of the BDU's and USAF blues all together?

Subdued colors would make look like posers.  The alternitive to subdued would be to eliminate all patches except name, rank and brank insignia.

[Psicorp]

Ok, I just wanted to ask if there is a rule stating we cant have subdued tapes and flags?

I mean I MIGHT even go along with the US CAP tape and accept the Flag IF they were subdued.

Im not asking out of a desire to play AD but, the simple fact is: everytime Im in BDUs and see my reflection I cring.   

What fun is that, sir?  I say we put every patch on the BDU that we are authorized...specialty patches, ES Patch, CPR/First Aid Patch, squadron patch, etc.  If it'll fit, sew it on. 

[LtCol White]

Certainly most of us know how you feel & are sympathetic. It's mainly a professional image meeting outsider expectations thing to me.

Then why are you so adamant about getting rid of the BDU's and USAF blues all together?

Subdued colors would make look like posers.  The alternitive to subdued would be to eliminate all patches except name, rank and brank insignia.

He has never said get rid of the BDU and USAF blues......where did you pick that up from??

[Major_Chuck]

This is just me speaking now,  I prefer a more minimal look on our field uniforms.  Name tape, CAP tape, American Flag, maybe a cloth specialty badge.  Multiple specialty badges and numerous activity patches pushes the uniform to looking like a boy scout uniform.  Just add a sash and we can do the whole merit badge thing too.

I feel strongly that we should wear the U.S. Flag on our uniform but not reversed.  That needs to be reserved for combat forces.  For numerous reasons but mainly out of pride.

[Major Lord]

I probably missed it, but did the Air Force authorize CAP in writing to add the American Flag to the Uniform? Can anyone point me to that directive?

Capt. Lord

[lordmonar]

Certainly most of us know how you feel & are sympathetic. It's mainly a professional image meeting outsider expectations thing to me.

Then why are you so adamant about getting rid of the BDU's and USAF blues all together?

Subdued colors would make look like posers.  The alternative to subdued would be to eliminate all patches except name, rank and Branch insignia.

He has never said get rid of the BDU and USAF blues......where did you pick that up from??

No...I have suggest that we lose the USAF style uniforms so that we present a professional impression to outsiders. 

[lordmonar]

I feel strongly that we should wear the U.S. Flag on our uniform but not reversed.  That needs to be reserved for combat forces.  For numerous reasons but mainly out of pride.

The only reason why the US ARMY wear the reverse flag is because they already wear a patch there.  Let's not start adding new false symbolism to the reverse flag.

[lordmonar]

I probably missed it, but did the Air Force authorize CAP in writing to add the American Flag to the Uniform? Can anyone point me to that directive?

Capt. Lord

Can anyone find the directive that says the USAF has final say so on our uniforms?  But I digress.  When the USAF approves uniform changes...at the most they sign a staff summer sheet or hack off on that portion of the NB minutes.  They don't publish the USAF approval, they just send out the memo.

[DNall]

Certainly most of us know how you feel & are sympathetic. It's mainly a professional image meeting outsider expectations thing to me.

Then why are you so adamant about getting rid of the BDU's and USAF blues all together?

I assume you meant "adamant of NOT getting rid of"? As in you believe we SHOULD get rid of AF-style unifroms so that we can have CAP members looking like each other & not worry about the AF.

Well, I'll say again, if we were an independent volunteer org that exists to do community service well then it's not neccessary to wear ANY uniform, a clip on ID would be fine.

But that's not what we are. The purpose of any uniforms at all is to state solidarity with the AF, to draw credibility from them, and to set the AF example over our cadets & subordinates. That's it. It's more important to look like the AF than it is to look like each other. That's not completely possible, but we do our best as an organization.

Subdued colors would make look like posers.  The alternitive to subdued would be to eliminate all patches except name, rank and brank insignia.

You think there's anyone that believes that who doesn't already think you're a poser for wearing a uniform in the first place? Screw them, they're idiots. Let me show you why...

(Analogy, not my opinion)
The ANG is really just posers right? I mean they're part-time punks doing the very minimum to stay qualified, and if we're short in an emergency we can tap the cream of that crop to be the worst guys in an active duty unit. They're all just playing real AF though, the wusses.

That'd get you knocked out wouldn't it? Now why is that? Why is the part time ANG not posers for wearing the SAME uniform as active duty, but the part-time auxiliary are posers for wearing a modified uniform that looks kinda like the AF? You think maybe it has to do with training to stadards they'd expect of themselves? You think maybe not meeting those standards would get you disrespected no matter what you wear? Okay then, lets do that as nearly as reasonablly possible, and lets put uniforms in the hands of the AF to decide in conjunction with their judgement on how well we meet those standards (ie how closely they want us related to them by outsiders).


On a side-note, yeah I would agree with minimizing the patches for now, but working toward subdued. I think you look like more of a poser when you draw attention to the differences between yourself and the military.

I think the public has no idea what CAP is, and never will. The only uniforms they know exist are police or military. When they see you they will categorize you as military & will believe you meet military qualification standards & have the full backing, resources, and capabilities of DoD - that you're the best in the country for this job.

If you don't live up to their expectations for what the military should look & act like then they will lose confidence in your credibility & capability. If you actually explain to them you're a bunch of civilian volunteers with minimal training, well that's not the person they want running the search. They want a top of the line expert & they're going to freak if they don't believe they are looking at one. Again, actually meeting those standards would be desirable, but meeting the expectations of their perception is the minimum you must do to accomplish the mission.

[LtCol White]

Certainly most of us know how you feel & are sympathetic. It's mainly a professional image meeting outsider expectations thing to me.

Then why are you so adamant about getting rid of the BDU's and USAF blues all together?

I assume you meant "adamant of NOT getting rid of"? As in you believe we SHOULD get rid of AF-style unifroms so that we can have CAP members looking like each other & not worry about the AF.

Well, I'll say again, if we were an independent volunteer org that exists to do community service well then it's not neccessary to wear ANY uniform, a clip on ID would be fine.

But that's not what we are. The purpose of any uniforms at all is to state solidarity with the AF, to draw credibility from them, and to set the AF example over our cadets & subordinates. That's it. It's more important to look like the AF than it is to look like each other. That's not completely possible, but we do our best as an organization.

Subdued colors would make look like posers.  The alternitive to subdued would be to eliminate all patches except name, rank and brank insignia.

You think there's anyone that believes that who doesn't already think you're a poser for wearing a uniform in the first place? Screw them, they're idiots. Let me show you why...

(Analogy, not my opinion)
The ANG is really just posers right? I mean they're part-time punks doing the very minimum to stay qualified, and if we're short in an emergency we can tap the cream of that crop to be the worst guys in an active duty unit. They're all just playing real AF though, the wusses.

That'd get you knocked out wouldn't it? Now why is that? Why is the part time ANG not posers for wearing the SAME uniform as active duty, but the part-time auxiliary are posers for wearing a modified uniform that looks kinda like the AF? You think maybe it has to do with training to stadards they'd expect of themselves? You think maybe not meeting those standards would get you disrespected no matter what you wear? Okay then, lets do that as nearly as reasonablly possible, and lets put uniforms in the hands of the AF to decide in conjunction with their judgement on how well we meet those standards (ie how closely they want us related to them by outsiders).


On a side-note, yeah I would agree with minimizing the patches for now, but working toward subdued. I think you look like more of a poser when you draw attention to the differences between yourself and the military.

I think the public has no idea what CAP is, and never will. The only uniforms they know exist are police or military. When they see you they will categorize you as military & will believe you meet military qualification standards & have the full backing, resources, and capabilities of DoD - that you're the best in the country for this job.

If you don't live up to their expectations for what the military should look & act like then they will lose confidence in your credibility & capability. If you actually explain to them you're a bunch of civilian volunteers with minimal training, well that's not the person they want running the search. They want a top of the line expert & they're going to freak if they don't believe they are looking at one. Again, actually meeting those standards would be desirable, but meeting the expectations of their perception is the minimum you must do to accomplish the mission.

Well said.

[lordmonar]

I assume you meant "adamant of NOT getting rid of"? As in you believe we SHOULD get rid of AF-style unifroms so that we can have CAP members looking like each other & not worry about the AF.

Well, I'll say again, if we were an independent volunteer org that exists to do community service well then it's not neccessary to wear ANY uniform, a clip on ID would be fine.

But that's not what we are. The purpose of any uniforms at all is to state solidarity with the AF, to draw credibility from them, and to set the AF example over our cadets & subordinates. That's it. It's more important to look like the AF than it is to look like each other. That's not completely possible, but we do our best as an organization.

You mean we fail at it.  I disagree with both of your statments about uniforms.  Sure we could go with just an ID clip....but we could also go with anything we wanted.  We do not wear uniforms to show our solidarity with the USAF....we wear uniforms to show solidarity with ourselves.  AND that is where we are making the mistakes.   

(Analogy, not my opinion)
The ANG is really just posers right? I mean they're part-time punks doing the very minimum to stay qualified, and if we're short in an emergency we can tap the cream of that crop to be the worst guys in an active duty unit. They're all just playing real AF though, the wusses.

That'd get you knocked out wouldn't it? Now why is that? Why is the part time ANG not posers for wearing the SAME uniform as active duty, but the part-time auxiliary are posers for wearing a modified uniform that looks kinda like the AF? You think maybe it has to do with training to stadards they'd expect of themselves? You think maybe not meeting those standards would get you disrespected no matter what you wear? Okay then, lets do that as nearly as reasonablly possible, and lets put uniforms in the hands of the AF to decide in conjunction with their judgement on how well we meet those standards (ie how closely they want us related to them by outsiders).

Sure....let's do that....I have never said we should not/could not do that.  Now look around your squadron....how many would be gone?  How long do you thing CAP would last if we required PT test annually?  80% of my squadron would be gone.  I need say nothing more than that.

We are the CAP...not the USAF nor the ANG or USAFR.  We have not combat duties and no need to be subdued.  The only reason why you want to be subdued is to be more like the USAF.....that is by definition a poser....you are NOT the USAF.  The ANG is not posers because they are the USAF...just the not the ACTIVE DUTY component.