Reason for CAP mandating wear of the American flag patch on the BDU

[Stonewall]

I follow them very closely! If CAP issued a policy requiring you to arm all Cessnas with Ruger 10-22's and cabbages, would you carry it out or ask for clarification and legal justification? Thats just what I am doing.

Capt. Lord

If you've got a legal question, I suggest contacting your local CAP legal officer.  I'm sure they can help you as ours (at the group level) is more than willing to help out in these matters.  She can look into the consititution and bylaws as it relates to CAP's authority to change policy on the AF style uniform.

You gotta choose your battles man.  This one ain't worth it. 

[shorning]

I am asking for the written authority that must have been granted for CAP to do so.

Then you are asking the wrong audience.  Perhaps you'd have luck filling out a FOIA request with CAP-USAF.  Staff work isn't' generally published for wide consumption.

[Major Lord]

I do not have any objections in principal to wearing a flag on my uniform ( I have done so before, why not now?) and this is not the hill I want to die on. I have asked the best knowledge base out there ( you guys) for a justification of this seeming disparity, and the overall response has been generally defensive and un-informative. While researching a position paper, I started asking what CAP's legal authority was to arm aircraft, and met much the same: They just did it". Allrighty then. If it was the hill I wanted to die on, I would contact the USAF Counsel General, not the CAP legal people. In the absence of any proof to the contrary, I will assume that CAP is acting properly, and that they violated their own regulations, a paradox not unknown in CAP history.

Capt. Lord

[ColonelJack]

Okay, the old timers agree that "shut up and do what you are told" is the best policy. ( Thats what made CAP the organization it is today....)  Lets see your regulatory justifcation. Based on the reponses I have seen, there is a tacit implication that CAP can change the military uniform on its own authority. I reject this presumption Ab initio. I am not whining and complaining. I am asking for a legal justification of an act that appears to be proscribed by public law and CAP regulations.

Capt. Lord

I absolutely don't want to come off sounding like a wiseacre or someone trying to be nasty and/or arrogant, but after reading all these posts about the flag, and the U.S. Civil Air Patrol tapes, and all these chages, I have to add my two cents, for whatever they may be worth:

Get over it, already.

The changes have been approved by the National Board.  Where AF approval was needed, it's been received; where it wasn't, they didn't bother asking, I suppose.

If the problem isn't the flag, or the tapes, but the way they were implemented, all I can suggest is ... see above.  It's done.  Maybe the next CAP CC will reverse it; maybe he (or, if we're lucky, she) won't.  But it's done, and while all of us who have questions and comments about them may feel that our views have been ignored ... folks, we weren't even in the equation.  

Someone very wise here said it's at the squadron level where the rubber meets the road.  Is there a CAP member (or retired member, like me) who really feels he can't do his job because he is wearing a flag patch or a tape with the letters U.S. on it?  

The Powers That Be have spoken.  Salute and execute.  Leadership 101.

Sorry if I sound out of line.  I'm just weary of reading all the nonsense.

Jack

[RiverAux]

CaptLord, I think that if CAP hadn't received concurrence on the addition of the flag to the BDUs from the Air Force, then it wouldn't have happened.  

This is no different than any other uniform change.  The National Board votes on it and it does over to the AF and if they approve it, the change will happen.  CAP has proposed many changes to the AF-style uniform over the years by voting on them at the NB but then they get vetoed by the AF.  I suspect that most of the time they've already obtained the ok unofficially before they vote in order to reduce the potential embarassment of being rejected.

I'm just weary of reading all the nonsense.

Has one of the other board members handcuffed you to the computer and taped your eyes open?  Blink twice and I'll call the cops for you.
 

[ColonelJack]

I'm just weary of reading all the nonsense.

Has one of the other board members handcuffed you to the computer and taped your eyes open?  Blink twice and I'll call the cops for you.
 

Well, now that you mention it .................

Sorry about the tone.

Jack

[shorning]

Has one of the other board members handcuffed you to the computer and taped your eyes open?  Blink twice and I'll call the cops for you.

Wait...if ones eyes are taped open........

[ColonelJack]

Wait...if ones eyes are taped open........

Got any Visine?

Jack

[Major Lord]

River Aux,

I don't believe that the argument that if the Air Force does not become aware of our violations they must be approved. Uniform approvals to the 39-1 must be signed off by  the USAF, and again, to the best of my knowledge, no such 39-1 revision has been approved by USAF. The regulations are not written in such a fashion as to lead anyone to believe that anything not prohibited is permitted.

Capt. Lord

[shorning]

...to the best of my knowledge...

There's the rub!  As a squadron member, you're not privy to the staffing done between the Air Force and NHQ.  Like I said, file a FOIA request. 

I have to wonder if you also extend this in to other areas of your life.  Do you require every driver to show you their driver's license test every time you're on the road?  Or do you just require them to show their license?  Without one of those, how do you know those people are authorized to drive?

[ColonelJack]

Uniform approvals to the 39-1 must be signed off by  the USAF,

Not all of them.  Anything CAP-distinctive does not require AF approval; the Executive Director of CAP-USAF himself said so.

Still, I would have a hard time believing that changes such as the flag and the U.S. Civil Air Patrol tapes weren't approved by AF before being implemented by the National Board.  We're just going to have to take National's word for it until the new 39-1 is published.

Again, sorry about my earlier tone.

Jack 

[DNall]

You have to take their word for it then too, you still won't & never will get a letter from AF saying they've approved XYZ. You just have to assume they're doing thier job cause you can't micromanage your bosses any more than you should your subordinates.

Go ahead & file the FOIA request, and while you're at it, make it for all authorizations for changes to the AF-style CAP uniform or guidance memos on uniform related matters including corporate uniforms. Mine all that out & feel free to let us know if some I's weren't dotted or T's crossed.

[lordmonar]

Capt. Harris,

There was a policy letter in December of 2005 issued by Gen Pineda, authorizing flags, and stating that the 39-1 would be changed to require flag wear. (Or words to that effect) The last version of the 39-1 that I have only allows flags on certain corporate uniforms: uniforms which are within the regulatory authority of CAP to change on their own initiative (arguably) If there is a copy of the 39-1 allowing/requiring flags on AF style uniforms( which would of course have to be approved by the ACTUAL Air Force) I am not aware of, and do not have a copy of this document. Since a copy of the 39-1 requiring the wear of flags on the AF style uniform has not been published ( to the best of my knowledge) the wear of the U.S. flag has not in fact been authorized by USAF. If you would care to share your documentation to the contrary, I would be delighted to review it. Oral traditions not withstanding, I would very much like to know that facts of the matter.

Anyone?

Capt. Lord

The policy letter of December 2005.

IIRC 39-1 came out in march...the flag issue came out in the Aug NB and USAF approval came out in December when the Policy Letter was issued.

As far as review documentation....you don't need to review anything more than 39-1 or the policy letters.

[lordmonar]

Okay, the old timers agree that "shut up and do what you are told" is the best policy.

No...actually it is us leaders and officers who say the best policy is to follow direction and not jump up and down and whine that some staffer at NHQ is not doing their job.

Wear the flag.

( Thats what made CAP the organization it is today....)  Lets see your regulatory justifcation. Based on the reponses I have seen, there is a tacit implication that CAP can change the military uniform on its own authority. I reject this presumption Ab initio. I am not whining and complaining. I am asking for a legal justification of an act that appears to be proscribed by public law and CAP regulations.

No....you misrepresent what was said.  CAP cannot change the USAF style uniform by its own regulations.  I have never implied that we have, will have or ever have (in recent memory) ever changed the USAF uniforms with out USAF approval.

It is you who are implying that the we should not wear the flag because no one on this board can show you USAF signature on some sort of paper saying they hacked off on the flag.  We are saying.....the Policy Letter is published....wear the the flag.

[Major Lord]

I did not say I would not, and/or others should not wear the flag. The last 39-1 revision is several years old, and a new regulation has not been forthcoming. You keep saying it must have been approved...no problem, show me a publicized copy of an AF approved 39-1 and I will jump with joy. Otherwise, what you have to say on this is just conjecture.

Capt. Lord

[lordmonar]

It does not appear that CAP has the legal authority to change the Uniform of the United States Air Force without their authority. I am asking for the written authority that must have been granted for CAP to do so.

I challenge your first assumption.  As far as I can tell...there is NO AFI that says the USAF will approve any changes to the USAF-style uniforms.  The USC says the SECAF can proscribe the wear of the USAF uniform and who can wear the uniform.  But another USC allows organizations such as military schools and cadet program to wear the uniform with any authorizations so long as they wear a patch on their shoulder.

This is how ACA can wear any uniform they want and all those military schools can use U.S. military uniforms with out being endorsed by the military.

I only proposed...that CAP could by law do the same as the ACA....except that our own (and only our own) regulations prevent this.  If you can find the law or Air Force regulation that says otherwise...I'd be glad to hear it.

[Nick]

I challenge your first assumption.  As far as I can tell...there is NO AFI that says the USAF will approve any changes to the USAF-style uniforms.  The USC says the SECAF can proscribe the wear of the USAF uniform and who can wear the uniform.  But another USC allows organizations such as military schools and cadet program to wear the uniform with any authorizations so long as they wear a patch on their shoulder.

Sir ... I cited the reg about 12 hours ago.  But I'll recap for those who won't bother to go looking for it:

1.3.2. Uniform Wear and Personal Appearance. CAP members are authorized to wear CAP or Air Force-style uniforms in accordance with CAP regulations (civilian clothing may be worn when specific missions dictate). The Air Force controls the configuration of the Air Force-style uniform worn by CAP members.

[snip]

1.3.4. CAP Distinctive Uniforms and Insignia. The emblems, insignia, and badges of the CAP Air Force-style uniform will clearly identify an individual as a CAP member at a distance and in low-light conditions. The Air Force must approve changes to the CAP Air Force-style uniform. CAP distinctive uniforms must be sufficiently different from U.S. Armed Forces uniforms so that confusion will not occur.

Emphasis mine

[lordmonar]

I don't believe that the argument that if the Air Force does not become aware of our violations they must be approved.

First...USAF-CAP is at the NB meetings.  He has no say in anything because USAF-CAP can't vote....but you will see in all the NB meeting notes and agendas....USAF-CAP's comments on just about everything that is discussed.  Even if they have no official say.  USAF is NOT out of the loop on these things.  No one is hiding anything....they work it the same building for gosh sakes.  The USAF is/was well aware of the vote to wear the flag.  They approved the change and the policy letter was sent out.  That is the way it works.  The same thing with the Gortex Jacket and rank on the hat. The NB approved it, sent it to USAF for approval...who sat on it for next to ever and then they approved it and the policy letter was sent out.  

Uniform approvals to the 39-1 must be signed off by  the USAF, and again, to the best of my knowledge, no such 39-1 revision has been approved by USAF. The regulations are not written in such a fashion as to lead anyone to believe that anything not prohibited is permitted.

I'm sorry that NHQ forgot to keep you in the loop of their approval process.  When NHQ sends out a policy letter....we are to assume that all the proper protocols are followed.  While you and I cannot change the regulation...the NB (you know the guys who approve those things) are fully free to change what they want.  Are they deficient in getting out the revisions in a timely manner...sure thing.....but so it the USAF...check when the last revision of AFI-36-2903 was (the Aug 06 revision replaced the Sept 02 pub...and there were a lot of changes documented only as policy letters or IMCs).  But that is neither here nor there.  The policy letter was sent.  You can find it on the CAP publications web site.  It is official and you are not in any position to question it's legality.

[lordmonar]

I challenge your first assumption.  As far as I can tell...there is NO AFI that says the USAF will approve any changes to the USAF-style uniforms.  The USC says the SECAF can proscribe the wear of the USAF uniform and who can wear the uniform.  But another USC allows organizations such as military schools and cadet program to wear the uniform with any authorizations so long as they wear a patch on their shoulder.

Sir ... I cited the reg about 12 hours ago.  But I'll recap for those who won't bother to go looking for it:

1.3.2. Uniform Wear and Personal Appearance. CAP members are authorized to wear CAP or Air Force-style uniforms in accordance with CAP regulations (civilian clothing may be worn when specific missions dictate). The Air Force controls the configuration of the Air Force-style uniform worn by CAP members.

[snip]

1.3.4. CAP Distinctive Uniforms and Insignia. The emblems, insignia, and badges of the CAP Air Force-style uniform will clearly identify an individual as a CAP member at a distance and in low-light conditions. The Air Force must approve changes to the CAP Air Force-style uniform. CAP distinctive uniforms must be sufficiently different from U.S. Armed Forces uniforms so that confusion will not occur.

Emphasis mine

Okay...I stand correctled on that issue.  I missed that last time I was perusing 10-2701.

[Nick]

Okay...I stand correctled on that issue.  I missed that last time I was perusing 10-2701.

No problem... in your defense, they practically completely rewrote 10-2701 in the past year or two.