Reason for CAP mandating wear of the American flag patch on the BDU

[Major Lord]

Actually, the 39-1 (1-1) clearly spells out that the authority is vested in the CAP CC and USAF HQ. A thinner skinned person might infer that your answer means that CAP can create, modify, and authorize changes to the AF uniform at their sole discretion. May I assume from your response that you have reason to believe that we have no Air Force authorization to mandate the flag wear? You seemt o be a strict constructioneinst on many CAP regs, but this one seems to be a little more flexible. Am I misunderstanding you?

Capt. Lord

[DNall]

You mean we fail at it.  I disagree with both of your statments about uniforms.  Sure we could go with just an ID clip....but we could also go with anything we wanted.  We do not wear uniforms to show our solidarity with the USAF....we wear uniforms to show solidarity with ourselves.  AND that is where we are making the mistakes.   

I understand you & I fundamentally disagree as to the nature of CAP & flowing from that comes the nature of uniform policy.

I would say the boy scouts wear uniforms to show solidarity with themselves. There's a reason the AF decided to allow wear of an AF-style uniform, and that they retain gevernance of that uniform. I would argue that is for the reasons I've stated, and have heard exactly that from a former CAP-USAF CC. I can't tell you what the views of the CSAF, SAF, current CAP-USAF/CC, CAP/CC, NEC or NB are on the subject, I have no idea, but I strongly believe the reasons I stated are highly placed on that list.

Beyond that we'd just have to agree to disagree, respectfully.

Sure....let's do that....I have never said we should not/could not do that.  Now look around your squadron....how many would be gone?  How long do you thing CAP would last if we required PT test annually?  80% of my squadron would be gone.  I need say nothing more than that.

You want to talk PD for just a second, that's fine... The reasonable standard I mentioned is in my mind: 10-20% off the top of all requirements for reserve personnel in grade, and excludes PT. That's what we've discussed before & I'd stand by that. I think the place for a PFT is in NIMS compliance, but I'd also appreicate a self-paced health & wellness program for the rest of our members too, nothing serious or overboard.

How many people would be gone? That's a fair question I don't think anyone can answer. Let me ask you how many missions we're held back from for our lack of capability? Again I don't think that can be answered, but we're not exactly the shade under full-time firefighter SaR experts we'd should be.

I'd tell you we don't know how many people we have now. The national number is somewhere around 54k last I heard, but the literal majority of that is inactive, and that also includes sponsor, patron, & AE members. The active ES qual'd (over GES) number as near as we could estimate base don avail data was well under 12k, and the majority of that is cadets. I'd tell you we're near rock bottom now, and a smooth programmed restart would be highly benefitial to the org.

As far as people leaving, I'm not scared of that at all. Our recruiting & retention numbers indicate people are replaced just as quickly as they leave, and the main reason they leave is the org doesn't have it's crap together & doesn't actually do the real-deal stuff they joined to be part of. Or if it does then they don't get a shot at it till they've paid their dues for several years & played some politics to get in with the right crowd.

I think a redesigned program that ignores the fear you're talking about & presses ahead would then attract a whole new class og higher speed members that would take to such a program & do a lot better job by our missions than we are doing now.

We are the CAP...not the USAF nor the ANG or USAFR.  We have not combat duties and no need to be subdued.  The only reason why you want to be subdued is to be more like the USAF.....that is by definition a poser....you are NOT the USAF.  The ANG is not posers because they are the USAF...just the not the ACTIVE DUTY component.

Actually we are the AF Auxiliary & I'd argue as much a part of the AF as the ANG is, especially when they are on title 32 duty. Everything else is a matter of fine lines & gray area. As I said before, I think a big part of why the AF has us wearing AF-style uniforms is cause they want out members thinking that way, but still knowing the limits.

Far as combat, the majority of the military doesn't have a direct action combat job. Hell in the AF it's under 10%. The AF is by definition a support service, and we are a support service for them. Certainly we aren't trying to hide from anyone on our missions though, I've never said we were. The problem w/ the current color explosion is it's embarassing & makes you look like a poser. I know for a fact when the pubic sees that it creates doubt that you are something official that the AF would send to rescue anyone. They don't understand what they are seeing so they don't have a way putting it in any other box. To them you are either the military or some kind of whack jobs out trying to pull something over on them. The extent to which you play into their pre-concieved expectations is the extent of the credibility they'll lend you. That's the facts regardless of how we feel about it.

[DNall]

Actually, the 39-1 (1-1) clearly spells out that the authority is vested in the CAP CC and USAF HQ. A thinner skinned person might infer that your answer means that CAP can create, modify, and authorize changes to the AF uniform at their sole discretion. May I assume from your response that you have reason to believe that we have no Air Force authorization to mandate the flag wear? You seemt o be a strict constructioneinst on many CAP regs, but this one seems to be a little more flexible. Am I misunderstanding you?

If I could draw you attention to the word "AND", that would indicate that both the CAP/CC & AF/HQ have to agree on changes or they cannot be made. We all have a pretty fair understanding of how that works. And Pat is correct that there would not be a lot of publicly released documentation to support permission being given.

I don't know if it was sought & given in that case. I would have to assume it was. In general the AF is not going to deny something like that which is generally meaningless to their purpose. I might do something different in that chair, but it's all well above my paygrade.

[lordmonar]

Actually, the 39-1 (1-1) clearly spells out that the authority is vested in the CAP CC and USAF HQ. A thinner skinned person might infer that your answer means that CAP can create, modify, and authorize changes to the AF uniform at their sole discretion. May I assume from your response that you have reason to believe that we have no Air Force authorization to mandate the flag wear? You seem to be a strict constructioneinst on many CAP regs, but this one seems to be a little more flexible. Am I misunderstanding you?

Capt. Lord

Well...I have been part of AFJROTC and AFROTC....and as far as I know...there is NO definitive regulation on how to wear those uniforms.  I know there are lots of local detachment regulations...but really....they could just about wear anything they wanted to (up to and including a drill team in flight suits and chrome helmets).

OUR regulations spell out that the USAF will have final authority on USAF-style uniforms....but the USAF's AFIs say nothing about them having that authority.  USC give the SECAF authority to say who can and can't wear uniforms.....but it also says that military organizations may wear uniforms with out military approval provided they wear a patch on the shoulder (such as the ACS does).

What I am getting at is....as far as I have read...the only reason why the USAF can veto changes to the USAF style uniforms is because we (CAP) says they can.

----->FLAME SHIELD<------
I AM NOT ADVOCATING THAT WE JUST DO WHAT WE WANT!   

I am only pointing out that what we thing is written down in stone is not in fact written down much at all.

As for me being a little lax on the 39-1 interpetation.....it's because I know the USAF ignores it when ever they feel like it.  We on active duty know where the hard lines are drawn and where you have a lot of lee way.  So I don't get bent out of shape when CAP (or part of CAP) does something that is "against regulations".  I think looking uniformed and professional are the most important factors.

[DNall]

^ I'm not saying you're right or wrong on that. SAF interprets (by tradition) AF authority over who gets to wear the uniform to mean they approve each little item that goes on "their" uniform. Ultimately they have the power to revoke wearing it &/or to cut back or off our funding. So he who has the gold makes the rules. ACA isn't formally affiliated with & doesn't get any money from the Army (some facility support), so they can do pretty much what they want & there's little penalty that can be imposed. Plus as a cadet based org they are going to get similiar treatment to JROTC.

As for me being a little lax on the 39-1 interpetation.....it's because I know the USAF ignores it when ever they feel like it.  We on active duty know where the hard lines are drawn and where you have a lot of lee way.  So I don't get bent out of shape when CAP (or part of CAP) does something that is "against regulations".  I think looking uniformed and professional are the most important factors.

On that we agree. It's defining what that means & why that we run into difficulty. What you're talking about though is a corrective culture that CAP doesn't have. Which is then compounded by standards... they look at our quality standards & have aproblem with the public thinking everyone in the AF is like this CAP member. That's understandable & needs a lot of work on our end.

I really am much more sympathetic to CAP members though. They get used hand-me-downs & rejected items, have to buy all their own stuff, don't have a mil expert cleaners around the corner to sew everything one perfect & crease it just right each week, they got a couple uniforms, not multiple sof the same things... it takes a lot of time to do it all yourself & just right, especially if you don't have any formal training or a boss standing over you making you do it right with serious consequences if you don't.

[SAR-EMT1]

I just want to say Ive had folks accuse me of being a poser for wearing our current uniform: because they happen to be a vet and the color explosion looks all wrong. Ive also had a police officer give me grief - again, he was a vet- because I was in BDUs and the patches were totally unfamiliar... got even worse when -after Id said I was CAP/ AF-Aux he pointed out that while the Army wears flags, the Air Force does not. ...
- personal note: A year back my unit had a retired Army CSM sign up, his first reaction upon seeing our BDUs was "You're kidding right? " His second was, "Ok, LT, but WHY the heck arent they subdued? "
I just think subdued would help improve our image and public relations.
And that barring that, we need to ditch as many 'extra' patches as possible.

As for needing subdued because Im a poser and not a part of the USAF...
no offense, but:

As long as my membership card says "USAF Aux" then I consider myself to be part of the Total Force.  - AD, Res, ANG, Aux, Civilian

[JC004]

I just want to say Ive had folks accuse me of being a poser for wearing our current uniform: because they happen to be a vet and the color explosion looks all wrong. Ive also had a police officer give me grief - again, he was a vet- because I was in BDUs and the patches were totally unfamiliar... got even worse when -after Id said I was CAP/ AF-Aux he pointed out that while the Army wears flags, the Air Force does not. ...
- personal note: A year back my unit had a retired Army CSM sign up, his first reaction upon seeing our BDUs was "You're kidding right? " His second was, "Ok, LT, but WHY the heck arent they subdued? "
I just think subdued would help improve our image and public relations.
And that barring that, we need to ditch as many 'extra' patches as possible.

As for needing subdued because Im a poser and not a part of the USAF...
no offense, but:

As long as my membership card says "USAF Aux" then I consider myself to be part of the Total Force.  - AD, Res, ANG, Aux, Civilian

I've often got the reaction of "Civil Air Patrol still exists?"  Usually it's WWII vets.

I have rarely been approached about the smurf explosion on my BDU, but I'm sure more people think it than say something.

[RogueLeader]

I've often got the reaction of "Civil Air Patrol still exists?"  Usually it's WWII vets.

That was my first thought when I heard about it.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Its funny, nobody has EVER called my a "Poser" or any other derogatory name when I'm in CAP uniform.

I don't wear anything on my BDU's that looks silly, except the wing patch, and that's required by the wing HQ.   I wear my name, CAP, wings, GT Badge, and flag.

If a cop, vet, or anybody else who can't mind his own business were to call me a "Poser," I would probably grab my crotch and say:  "Pose this" or something equally belligerent.

[RogueLeader]

Its funny, nobody has EVER called my a "Poser" or any other derogatory name when I'm in CAP uniform.

I don't wear anything on my BDU's that looks silly, except the wing patch, and that's required by the wing HQ.   I wear my name, CAP, wings, GT Badge, and flag.

If a cop, vet, or anybody else who can't mind his own business were to call me a "Poser," I would probably grab my crotch and say:  "Pose this" or something equally belligerent.

So long as there were no Cadets around . . . . .

[DNall]

It's not that anyone would care if they were called a poser or not. It's what people don't say. That look on their face or "OH" with the downward inflection when they thought the special forces of military SaR was coming to save the world & take care of their little issue, and what they see is raibow bright & the girl scout troop. They suddenly don't have the confidence in your ability to go find their loved ones, or that you are really there on official orders from the AF (I've been asked for written orders a few times, by cops among other things). All I'm saying is the more you play into what they expect to see, the less they will question the confidence & credibility that comes with wearing the uniform. That is how I would define professional image in our case.

[Former_C/LTC]

Vangard is overstocked.  That's priceless.  I feel I'm fairly qualified to answer this question since I'm currently a MSGT in the USAFR and a CAP LTC that has served as a sqadron commander, ground team leader, wing chief of staff and region staff. 

Someone (Nat CC) or some members (Wing CC's)  thought it would look cool to emulate the US Army since they are on the news every night.  Hence the US Civil Air Patrol tapes and American flag.  The army wears the flag on all ACU's since they are often deployed overseas.  The US Air Force only wears the flag on flight suits for the same reason.  All Armed Forces wear US as part of their name tags for the same reason.

And I'm only going to say this once...STOP THE INSANITY, we are not and never have been and never will be deployed overseas, ever, period, end of story.  We are constantly inventing more garbage to place on our uniforms to make some of us feel important or like the "real" military.  It needs to stop.  It is our job as general members of CAP to inform our wing commanders to advise the National Board to change this erred policy. 

We are the only official Auxiliary of any of the Armed Forces and since we are the Auxiliary of the USAF it is in our best interest to represent them accordingly.  Other posts are quite correct in saying we have an obligation to wear the uniform correctly and are often mistaken for "real" military due to incorrect public perceptions.  Enough of my ranting, not enough of our membership believes what I'm saying or the few other CAP members that are US Air Force members who also believe me. 

  Semper Gumby (Always Flexible)

[JC004]

...we are not and never have been and never will be deployed overseas, ever, period, end of story...

That's the next change: "U.S. Air Patrol"   

[LtCol White]

...we are not and never have been and never will be deployed overseas, ever, period, end of story...

That's the next change: "U.S. Air Patrol"   

Hmmm...I like the sound of that!!!

[LtCol White]

How about US AIR FARCE....................then we would use the USAF  abbreviation 

[JC004]

How about US AIR FARCE....................then we would use the USAF  abbreviation 

I still stand behind my idea of a strip on the pocket below the CAP tape that says "Former Auxiliary - US Air Force"   

[Pylon]

I still stand behind my idea of a strip on the pocket below the CAP tape that says "Former Auxiliary - US Air Force"   

Or just wear your "Aux On / Aux Off" patch and flip it accordingly. 

[brasda91]

I feel strongly that we should wear the U.S. Flag on our uniform but not reversed.  That needs to be reserved for combat forces.

The reason we wear the reversed flag is because the Union should be closest to the heart, hence the reversed flag on the right shoulder.  It has nothing to do with combat.

As for all the comments regarding being called a "poser", I've never been called that or any other name.  Maybe it has to do with the way you present yourself in uniform.  If your uniform is clean and pressed and your boots are polished and you present a professional image, I see no reason for anyone to disrespect you.

[PHall]

I feel strongly that we should wear the U.S. Flag on our uniform but not reversed.  That needs to be reserved for combat forces.

The reason we wear the reversed flag is because the Union should be closest to the heart, hence the reversed flag on the right shoulder.  It has nothing to do with combat.

Uh, no that's not quite it.

The union of the flag (the part with the stars in it) is always supposed to be going forward.
So if you wear the flag on your left shoulder it would face one way and if you wore it on the right side it would face the other way.

Same rule applies to aircraft and "vessels" too.  Basic rule, if it moves the union should be going forward.

[LtCol White]

I feel strongly that we should wear the U.S. Flag on our uniform but not reversed.  That needs to be reserved for combat forces.

The reason we wear the reversed flag is because the Union should be closest to the heart, hence the reversed flag on the right shoulder.  It has nothing to do with combat.

Uh, no that's not quite it.

The union of the flag (the part with the stars in it) is always supposed to be going forward.
So if you wear the flag on your left shoulder it would face one way and if you wore it on the right side it would face the other way.

Same rule applies to aircraft and "vessels" too.  Basic rule, if it moves the union should be going forward.

Exactly correct