Crewmember wings alternative

[Eclipse]

FECA/FTCA doesn't dictate our place as a USAF auxiliary, except in the minds of a lawyer somewhere.
If it did, we could only wear USAF-style uniforms during AFAMs.

Yes Bob, you're right, the law is wrong.

Thank you, however we're not talking about a nuance of liability insurance, are we?

(Do you pull this crap with CAP regs too?)

Interpret them properly?  Yes.

We may always be "the" USAF Auxiliary, but according to that section of federal law, we enjoy auxiliary status ONLY when performing missions for federal agencies.

"Enjoy auxiliary status?"  What does that mean in any way relevent to the average member.

Paragraph (a) identifies pretty clearly when we are considered "a volunteer civilian auxiliary of the Air Force"; the implication being that anytime that condition--"when the services of the Civil Air Patrol are used by any department or agency in any branch of the Federal Government."--is NOT met, we are not considered as such.

Please provide a list of activities and duties the average member participates in that aren't, in some way, used "by any department or agency in any branch of the Federal Government".
For starters, last I checked, CAP-USAF is a "department or agency in any branch of the Federal Government".

[Panache]

Why are we "checking them out"?  They both look fine.

Do not ask me.  I agree.  I do not see anything particularly glaring.  Ask Panache.

Duh.  I've been reading the draft 39-1 too many times and I had a temporary case of cranial-rectal inversion.  I forgot that it is currently authorized.  I very rarely (read: never) wear a flight suit.

My bad, sorry.

That being said, now I'm irked that they're specifically forbidding it in the draft 39-1 when it is currently authorized.  But, hey, we still get to keep our orange baseball caps!   

[Alaric]

Technically speaking we are only an auxiliary of the Air Force when on an Air Force mission.  So most of the time we are a civilian corporation.  When I was a member of a volunteer Search and Rescue team in Illinois, even though we reported through the Fire Department we wore polos and tactical pants.

100% WRONG!!!!

I SAY AGAIN MY LAST!   100% WRONG!

We are always the Civil Air Patrol, The Official Auxiliary of the USAF!  Says so in the law that created us!

What you are getting confused about is:   We are only an instrument of the U.S. Government and covered by Federal Tort Protection, and Federal Workers Compensation during USAF Assigned Missions.

So get let's forget this AUX ON/AUX OFF stuff!

Sorry for my rant!

You can rant all you like, doesn't make you right.  The USC says we are the auxiliary when we are doing missions for the government, which of course means we are not the auxiliary when we are not doing missions for the government.  Vehemence does not equal accuracy

[Eclipse]

You can rant all you like, doesn't make you right.  The USC says we are the auxiliary when we are doing missions for the government, which of course means we are not the auxiliary when we are not doing missions for the government.  Vehemence does not equal accuracy

The USC is speaking only in regards to FECA/FTCA benefits, which are a tiny part of the CAP universe.
Again, FECA/FTCA doesn't define CAP's overall auxiliary status.

[THRAWN]

Then you'd love the high collared, Billy Mitchell style uniforms, too...

Personally as someone who got their degree in History I am all for the World War I or II Observer rating badges.  Slightly updated without the straight wing design of the Great War.  Just my two cents.  Fair Winds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TechnicalObserverWings.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USA_-_Balloon_Observer_WWI.png

[THRAWN]

I seem to have left my copy of the USC in the car. Isn't the full name of the corportation (from 36USC) Civil Air Patrol, Inc, the USAF Auxiliary? So as I understand it, much like Rhode Island, the name is shortened to be manageable. The full title and the law, names us as the dual hatted organization (corporation and USAF auxiliary...interestingly, "an" auxiliary...) and 10USC outlines specifically when we act as a corporation or an auxiliary. I love that "an"...

Technically speaking we are only an auxiliary of the Air Force when on an Air Force mission.  So most of the time we are a civilian corporation.  When I was a member of a volunteer Search and Rescue team in Illinois, even though we reported through the Fire Department we wore polos and tactical pants.

100% WRONG!!!!

I SAY AGAIN MY LAST!   100% WRONG!

We are always the Civil Air Patrol, The Official Auxiliary of the USAF!  Says so in the law that created us!

What you are getting confused about is:   We are only an instrument of the U.S. Government and covered by Federal Tort Protection, and Federal Workers Compensation during USAF Assigned Missions.

So get let's forget this AUX ON/AUX OFF stuff!

Sorry for my rant!

You can rant all you like, doesn't make you right.  The USC says we are the auxiliary when we are doing missions for the government, which of course means we are not the auxiliary when we are not doing missions for the government.  Vehemence does not equal accuracy

[FW]

From the Bylaws of CAP:

ARTICLE II
NAME AND STATUS
The name of the Corporation shall be "Civil Air Patrol" and its status is that of the volunteer civilian
auxiliary of the United States Air Force. The Corporation may also be referred to as "Civil Air Patrol" or
by such other titles as may be approved in the Bylaws.

[unmlobo]

Then you'd love the high collared, Billy Mitchell style uniforms, too...

Personally as someone who got their degree in History I am all for the World War I or II Observer rating badges.  Slightly updated without the straight wing design of the Great War.  Just my two cents.  Fair Winds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TechnicalObserverWings.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USA_-_Balloon_Observer_WWI.png

Actually I did like them.  I think as a whole we, the Air Force, have gone astray from our historical roots.  This in turn is also a reflection of CAP.  I feel we do need a re-blueing and reminder of where we came from and who we are. 

[Storm Chaser]

Maybe this will clarify things or make them "clear as mud":

2. CAP Mission Status. CAP may conduct its activities as either an auxiliary of the Air Force or in its
corporate status:

2.1. Air Force Auxiliary. CAP is an auxiliary of the Air Force when it assists the Air Force or any Federal agency in fulfilling its non-combat programs and missions. CAP support may include, but is not limited to, Air Force-assigned missions in support of homeland security operations, consequence management, support to civilian law enforcement, and other civil support. CAP may only support an agency or department of the Federal government in its capacity as the Air Force Auxiliary. Certain
CAP programs, such as cadet orientation flights, may be approved and assigned as Air Force missions
when these support Air Force non-combat programs and missions.

2.2. Congressionally Chartered Nonprofit Corporation. CAP Corporation may use Federally provided resources to provide assistance requested by state or local governmental authorities and
non-governmental organizations (NGOs) to perform disaster relief missions and other emergency or
non-emergency public purpose missions and activities. CAP may also use Federally provided resources to perform certain missions that fulfill its corporate purposes as described in paragraph 1. of this Policy Directive.

1.2. CAP Status as an Auxiliary of the Air Force. Title 10, USC § 9442 identifies CAP as an auxiliary of the Air Force when carrying out a mission assigned by the SECAF to provide services to any department or agency in any branch of the Federal government, including the Air Force. CAP is deemed to be an instrumentality of the United States while carrying out missions assigned by the Secretary.

WHEREAS, Civil Air Patrol is designated as the civilian auxiliary of the United States Air Force under 10 USC § 9441 which authorizes various Air Force support and designates Civil Air Patrol and its members as instrumentalities of the United States while performing Air Force non-combat missions.

4. CAP, as an Auxiliary of the U.S. Air Force. In 1943 CAP began as an auxiliary of the Army Air Corps and later continued with the Army Air Force. The Congress codified that status declaring CAP as the official Auxiliary of the newly created United States Air Force on 26 May 1948 by a law frequently referred to as the CAP Supply Bill (10 USC 9441). In 2000, Congress codified CAP's status as an auxiliary of the Air Force when it is performing a mission for a "department or agency in any branch of the Federal government". The CAP and its members are deemed to be instrumentalities of the United States with respect to any act or mission of the CAP in carrying out a mission assigned by the Air Force (see 10 U.S.C. 9442).

[THRAWN]

Can't say that I disagree in either case. They looked...martial....and we do need to get back closer with Mom Blue.

Then you'd love the high collared, Billy Mitchell style uniforms, too...

Personally as someone who got their degree in History I am all for the World War I or II Observer rating badges.  Slightly updated without the straight wing design of the Great War.  Just my two cents.  Fair Winds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TechnicalObserverWings.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USA_-_Balloon_Observer_WWI.png

Actually I did like them.  I think as a whole we, the Air Force, have gone astray from our historical roots.  This in turn is also a reflection of CAP.  I feel we do need a re-blueing and reminder of where we came from and who we are.

[Eclipse]

Maybe this will clarify things or make them "clear as mud":

2. CAP Mission Status. CAP may conduct its activities as either an auxiliary of the Air Force or in its
corporate status:

2.1. Air Force Auxiliary. CAP is an auxiliary of the Air Force when it assists the Air Force or any Federal agency in fulfilling its non-combat programs and missions. CAP support may include, but is not limited to, Air Force-assigned missions in support of homeland security operations, consequence management, support to civilian law enforcement, and other civil support. CAP may only support an agency or department of the Federal government in its capacity as the Air Force Auxiliary. Certain
CAP programs, such as cadet orientation flights, may be approved and assigned as Air Force missions
when these support Air Force non-combat programs and missions.

2.2. Congressionally Chartered Nonprofit Corporation. CAP Corporation may use Federally provided resources to provide assistance requested by state or local governmental authorities and
non-governmental organizations (NGOs) to perform disaster relief missions and other emergency or
non-emergency public purpose missions and activities. CAP may also use Federally provided resources to perform certain missions that fulfill its corporate purposes as described in paragraph 1. of this Policy Directive.

1.2. CAP Status as an Auxiliary of the Air Force. Title 10, USC § 9442 identifies CAP as an auxiliary of the Air Force when carrying out a mission assigned by the SECAF to provide services to any department or agency in any branch of the Federal government, including the Air Force. CAP is deemed to be an instrumentality of the United States while carrying out missions assigned by the Secretary.

WHEREAS, Civil Air Patrol is designated as the civilian auxiliary of the United States Air Force under 10 USC § 9441 which authorizes various Air Force support and designates Civil Air Patrol and its members as instrumentalities of the United States while performing Air Force non-combat missions.

4. CAP, as an Auxiliary of the U.S. Air Force. In 1943 CAP began as an auxiliary of the Army Air Corps and later continued with the Army Air Force. The Congress codified that status declaring CAP as the official Auxiliary of the newly created United States Air Force on 26 May 1948 by a law frequently referred to as the CAP Supply Bill (10 USC 9441). In 2000, Congress codified CAP's status as an auxiliary of the Air Force when it is performing a mission for a "department or agency in any branch of the Federal government". The CAP and its members are deemed to be instrumentalities of the United States with respect to any act or mission of the CAP in carrying out a mission assigned by the Air Force (see 10 U.S.C. 9442).

Lousy facts, always getting in the way of assumptions and misinterpretations...

[Storm Chaser]

Lousy facts, always getting in the way of assumptions and misinterpretations...

I've always believed and taught that CAP is always the Air Force Auxiliary. However, after finding all these references, I can see why some may believe that our auxiliary status only applies when conducting missions for the Air Force or other Federal agencies.

[SarDragon]

You're point?

Well I do not think I am a point.

Well it could be argued that you are a data point, and your location on a map is represented by a point. It's also possible that I made a typo, but I doubt it. 

"You're point" is a contraction of "you are point", hence the subsequent discussion.

[Eclipse]

Lousy facts, always getting in the way of assumptions and misinterpretations...

I've always believed and taught that CAP is always the Air Force Auxiliary. However, after finding all these references, I can see why some may believe that our auxiliary status only applies when conducting missions for the Air Force or other Federal agencies.

True enough, however that is only one piece of auxiliary status related to funding and liability, not the total picture.

[Storm Chaser]

Lousy facts, always getting in the way of assumptions and misinterpretations...

I've always believed and taught that CAP is always the Air Force Auxiliary. However, after finding all these references, I can see why some may believe that our auxiliary status only applies when conducting missions for the Air Force or other Federal agencies.

True enough, however that is only one piece of auxiliary status related to funding and liability, not the total picture.

Is there another reference that can shed some light on this?

[jeders]

You're point?

Well I do not think I am a point.

Well it could be argued that you are a data point, and your location on a map is represented by a point. It's also possible that I made a typo, but I doubt it. 

"You're point" is a contraction of "you are point", hence the subsequent discussion.

Yes, thank you, I know that; hence the second sentence and smiley face in my reply.

[THRAWN]

It's interesting how the CAP Constitution references CAP as THE auxiliary and the law references CAP as AN auxiliary. Words, and language, mean things...

[RogueLeader]

It's interesting how the CAP Constitution references CAP as THE auxiliary and the law references CAP as AN auxiliary. Words, and language, mean things...

Well, there used to be more than one auxiliary to the Air Force . . . so when the law was written, it was accurate.

[Eclipse]

Well, there used to be more than one auxiliary to the Air Force . . . so when the law was written, it was accurate.

Isn't MARS still considered an auxiliary?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Under current CAPM-39-1 this is within regs.  Check out page 86, table 4-5, line 6.

It is, and the difference between the "blue flight suit" and "blue utility suit" was never made clear by 39-1.  At least the rough draft of the new 39-1 seems to put paid to that.

Well, there used to be more than one auxiliary to the Air Force . . . so when the law was written, it was accurate.

Isn't MARS still considered an auxiliary?

I believe so, but I am unsure how much use the military makes of them in this day and age of instantaneous communication.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Auxiliary_Radio_System

Remember when Packet Radio was the "next big thing?"

Well, there used to be more than one auxiliary to the Air Force . . . so when the law was written, it was accurate.

What others were there besides MARS, which is not Air Force-specific?

It is not the AFs job to educate the masses it is our job.  As I have said before if we want folks to be aware it is up to us, but BMT and Tech School are not the places for it.  Sorry but until we are considered part of the total force initiative then the AF is not going to educate the masses beyond what they do currently.

And why is it not the Air Force's job?  We wear a modified version of their uniform, we receive a good chunk of funding from them, we are part of the operations of 1st Air Force (ask Colonel Lee), and they used to educate their members about us.

In the most black-and-white terms (and I say this as a former ANG airman), we are more of a direct part of the Air Force than the Air National Guard.  Under Title 32 and Title 10 USC, the ANG is only directly a part of the Air Force when placed under Federal control by the President.  Until then, they are controlled by their state Governors and Adjutant General.  In fact, ANG aircraft used to only carry "U.S. AIR FORCE" titling when this happened; otherwise they carried their state name.



We are "all federal, all the time," and AUX ON/OFF be hanged.

Short of banging on the door of a base Wing King's office, how is it our part to "educate the Air Force" about us?