Most Basic CAP Uniform for New Member

[Eclipse]

Requiring a member to purchase an optional uniform is not a lawful order.  "Optional" means optional.

The minimum basic uniform.

Is.

Not.

Optional.

Period.

"will equip" is unambigous, so in that context, rather then stamp their feet like a 6 year old,
a good CC would insure they "are equipped" and find places for their members to be wearing the uniform
they have spent the money on.

[Panache]

I encourage commanders to focus on the mission -- preparing for and performing emergency services, training our cadets, and educating our members and the public on aerospace matters. 

Well, I guess we know how Eclipse feels about focusing on the mission....

"Mission driven" is code for "I only do what I feel like doing".

[Ned]

Requiring a member to purchase an optional uniform is not a lawful order.  "Optional" means optional.

The minimum basic uniform.

Is.

Not.

Optional.

Period.

Agreed.  All the others (and there are a lot of them) are the "optional" ones.

[Eclipse]

I encourage commanders to focus on the mission -- preparing for and performing emergency services, training our cadets, and educating our members and the public on aerospace matters. 

Well, I guess we know how Eclipse feels about focusing on the mission....

"Mission driven" is code for "I only do what I feel like doing".

Yes, by all means purposely misinterpret what is written - that generally really moves a conversation along...

[abdsp51]

Split hairs much?  The commander or activity director has the prerogative and obligation to set the UOD and has the prerogative to send someone not in compliance home.   

Balderdash, sir.

Requiring a member to purchase an optional uniform is not a lawful order.  "Optional" means optional.

A member cannot be disciplined for violating an improper order. 

But far more importantly, sending otherwise productive members home for mere uniform violations is silly and counter-productive, and does not seem to comport with our Core Values of Respect and Volunteer Service.

Please take a moment and reflect that any commander who adopts "do as I say or go home!" as their primary leadership style  is overlooking most of the tools in their leadership tool box.

I encourage commanders to focus on the mission -- preparing for and performing emergency services, training our cadets, and educating our members and the public on aerospace matters. 

If a member's appearance directly impacts mission performance, immediate action is indicated.  Otherwise good commanders educate, counsel, and encourage members to fully comply with our rather complex uniform regulations.

Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer

So setting a standard and enforcing the standard is not a tool in the leadership tool box sir?  I'm sorry but if a member cannot comply with the simple standard as the uniform of the day and show up with a disregard to it,  then how can you be sure they are not going to cut corners somewhere else?

[RiverAux]

So Eclipse, did you wear the service dress uniforms to all meetings when you were a group commander?  Did you require it to be worn at all squadron meetings as required (unless the activities being undertaken during the meeting made it inappropriate)? 

[LSThiker]

A closer reading of 39-1 certainly implies that we should be wearing the service dress at every meeting, yet it is not done anywhere in CAP.  Should we be doing that?  Not sure I've heard anyone make that case.

Just a matter of reference, actually when I was a SQ/CC, my unit wore service dress the first two weeks of the month.  The third week (BDUs) was for outdoor activities or indoor activities during the winter where service dress was not practical (ES training, model rocketry, team building exercises).  The Squadron senior staff wore the golf shirt or CAP distinctive service uniform if they were not participating.  The fourth night was PT, so obviously PT clothes. 

I actually did this for two reasons.  First the way the regulations are written.  Two, the start of the Iraq war was not popular in my town.  The service dress made it look a little less "war like".

[Eclipse]

So Eclipse, did you wear the service dress uniforms to all meetings when you were a group commander?  Did you require it to be worn at all squadron meetings as required (unless the activities being undertaken during the meeting made it inappropriate)?

Which meetings?  I rarely held them.  If I visited a unit, I generally asked what their UOD was.
As a unit CC, pretty much all the time, unless the activity dictated otherwise.

One must model the example one expects.

[RiverAux]

Actually, one could take a look at the 1997 and 2005 versions of 39-1 and see that if anything CAP has been moving away from having a standard uniform (no surprise to anyone here).  In the older version it is pretty clear that you're expected to be in the service dress for normal activities.  It is referred to as being worn for "normal duty" (1-2c) and especially (1-7). 

It isn't quite as clear in the 2005 version, but it still does have the definition of service dress include the the "normal duty" language(1-3c), but expands the commander's authority to prescribe UOD. 

So, why in the world are we requiring someone to buy a uniform that their squadron commander could decide on their own is never worn at their squadron? 

Maybe the supposed revision to 39-1 will clear this up a bit.  Either clearly make it the standard uniform for most activities or dump the requirement entirely or make the golf shirt the minimum uniform.  The current requirement is clearly not something that most commanders support by requiring its wear on a regular basis. 

[Eclipse]

^ Because the CAP "multiform" is a hot mess of progressive compromise instead of being
a clothing standard, coupled with CCs who avoid uncomfortable conversations like the
plague, or who can't even be bothered themselves.

So the "standard" uniform for cadets is generally BDUs, even though we can't require they
buy them, and the MBU for adults is something 1/3rd don't even know is required.

[Panache]

Yes, by all means purposely misinterpret what is written - that generally really moves a conversation along...

Your own words, sir.

[Eclipse]

Yes, by all means purposely misinterpret what is written - that generally really moves a conversation along...

Your own words, sir.

And correct in context.

[abdsp51]

Rewrite the reg because of people who are either a) lazy or b) dont care?  Honestly these issues can be resolved if commanders explained the requirements upon entry and enforced them.  Cadets can and should be given leeway adults on the other hand not so much.  With cadets it will be situational but adults know better and should have their feet held to the fire and held accountable for violating things. 

In todays society no one wants to be the bad guy and tell someone they are wrong or have those hard talks wih people.  Anyone coming into my unit here that wants to work with cadets in the CP side of things is informed of the requirements upfront and what is expected of them.  IMO if you are working the CP side you wear what they wear or the corp equilvalent.

The golf shirt should not be the minimum period why should we have to drop the standard for those that don't care or are lazy?

[RiverAux]

Honestly these issues can be resolved if commanders explained the requirements upon entry and enforced them.

Well, just what is the argument for requiring purchase of a uniform that is rarely worn?  If you want people to own it, you need to require them to wear it and we really don't.  If you want to require it, then you need to re-write the regulation to require it be the standard uniform and restrict commanders discretion to make other uniforms the UOD for regular meetings. 

[Ned]

So setting a standard and enforcing the standard is not a tool in the leadership tool box sir?  I'm sorry but if a member cannot comply with the simple standard as the uniform of the day and show up with a disregard to it,  then how can you be sure they are not going to cut corners somewhere else?

A reasonable question.

No one disputes that commanders can (and indeed normally should) set a UOD for a given meeting or activity.  And have all the necessary authority to enforce this, as they have to enforce any other lawful directive, command, or order.

(I suspect everyone is nodding in agreement so far.)

But while we probably agree on the principle involved, it sounds like there is substantial disagreement on the implementation.  So let's look at that.

Hypo #1.  Suppose a commander says "The UOD for our meeting next Tuesday is 'Short sleeve shirts/ blouse or Aviators.'"  Reasonable guidance, and probably similar to something that is said by several hundred CAP commanders nationwide each week.  But now, further suppose the following:

Capt Smith - the logistics officer - shows up in BDUs.  When the commander asks about it, Capt Smith says "I didn't think you meant me because you knew I have to inventory all the tents and heavy boxes of uniforms in the supply shed. I'm sorry if I misunderstood, but I do have to get the inventory done or we will be late on the suspense."

The commander has at least two options here:

1)  Send Smith home because Smith "cannot follow simple standards."  After all, if Smith shows up in the wrong uniform "how can you be sure he is not going to cut corners somewhere else?"  This approach has the advantage of reinforcing a commander's authority to specify uniforms.  Other members will surely watch and learn.  Sure, the inventory may not get done, but it is far more important to ensure that members do not disregard clear guidance about uniforms.
2)  Thank Smith for pointing out the communication error.  Ask Smith to remind you in the future if your guidance seems ambiguous.  Make sure Smith has all the help needed for the inventory.


HYPO #2.  The commander says "The UOD next week is BDU's or corporate equivalent.  We're going to do some ES training in the woods adjacent to the squadron, so dress warmly.

Lt Jones - the unit Admin officer -- shows up wearing aviators. When the commander asks about it, Jones says that Jones doesn't have BDUs, believing them to be an optional uniform.  Jones points out that Jones received a CAP Achievement Award last year after being nominated for Admin Officer of the Year award.  All of Jones' duties are performed either at home, on line, or in the tiny squadron office.

The commander pushes back a bit, saying how important it is for everyone to look uniform, and reminds Jones that it is the commander's prerogative to set the UOD.  Jones replies that Jones is retired, lives on a fixed income, and can't really afford the over $100 cost for the "optional" uniform that is not needed or related to Jones' normal duties.

The commander has at least two options here:

1)  Send Jones home because Jones "cannot follow simple standards."  After all, if Jones shows up in the wrong uniform "how can you be sure he is not going to cut corners somewhere else?"  This approach has the advantage of reinforcing a commander's authority to specify uniforms.  Other members will surely watch and learn.  After all, Jones can perform much of the Admin Officer duty at home or on line.

2)  Thank Jones yet again for exemplary performance of duty.  Let Jones perform duty in the Aviator uniform.


HYPO #3.  The commander of a cadet unit specified BDUs for the meeting.  Cadet Davis shows up in what only can be described charitably as "BDU's."  Davis' shirt has the impressions from where the previous owner's patches had been removed, but no CAP insignia.  It is, however, free of wrinkles and the boots are shined.  Davis forgot the BDU hat at home.  When asked by the staff, Davis point out that this is his first time wearing BDUs.  Davis' family had economized by recycling some BDUs acquired from a family member.  Davis worked very hard to get the uniform ready, and came with some money to buy patches from the unit supply during the break.

The commander has at least two options here:

1)  Send Davis home because Davis "cannot follow simple standards."  After all, if Davis shows up in an improper uniform "how can you be sure he is not going to cut corners somewhere else?"  This approach has the advantage of reinforcing a commander's authority to specify uniforms.  Other members will surely watch and learn.

2)  Allow the cadet chain to work with Davis to ensure that he understands the standards, and encourage Davis to properly sew on the patches for the next BDU night.  Make sure that Davis (and all the other cadets) have an exciting and engaging meeting night.


And to give you one:

HYPO #4.  The commander sets the UOD as "short sleeve shirts or aviators."  Lt Lee - a qualified CAP Transport pilot -- shows up in a golf shirt.  In fact, this is the third meeting in a row that Lee has worn the golf shirt instead of the UOD.  Previously, the commander had educated and counseled Lee about the minimum basic / distinctive basic uniforms, and specifically referred Lee to CAPM 39-1, para 1-5.  Based on previous conversations, the commander knows that finances are not the issue here.  Lee has said on several occasions that "hey, I'm a busy legal professional.  You guys are lucky to have me here at all."  Lee has also actively encouraged other squadron members to wear the golf shirt combo and to disregard the commander's UOD guidance.  Lee has no specific responsibilities beyond receiving some training at tonight's meeting.

The commander has several options here:

1)  Send Lee home because Lee "cannot follow simple standards."  After all, if Lee shows up in the wrong uniform "how can you be sure he is not going to cut corners somewhere else?"  This approach has the advantage of reinforcing a commander's authority to specify uniforms.  Other members will surely watch and learn.

2)  Again counsel and re-educate Lee.  The commander can take additional actions to encourage compliance such as restricting Lee from the upcoming National Conference in Vegas, or even grounding Lee until he has acquired a minimum basic / distinctive uniform.  The commander may ask officers whom Lee respects to join the conversation and actively mentor Lee.  The commander can also explain additional options available to the commander to encourage compliance, such as suspension and demotion.   And eventually, the possibility of termination.

3)  Transfer Lee to group headquarters or some other squadron, kicking the disciplinary can down the road. 


Bottom line, is that you or any commander can set a UOD.

But you do not have the power or authority to order members to purchase any uniform other than the minimum basic / distinctive uniform specified in the regs.

Sure, you can restrict them from duties that would normally require a field or flight uniform if they don't have them.  But as a practical matter, that is going to be a fairly rare occurance.  For the average meeting or activity, the minimum uniform is more than adequate. 

Thank you for your work with our cadets.  You are shaping America's future.


(This got too long.  Sorry about that.)

[abdsp51]

Honestly these issues can be resolved if commanders explained the requirements upon entry and enforced them.

Well, just what is the argument for requiring purchase of a uniform that is rarely worn?  If you want people to own it, you need to require them to wear it and we really don't.  If you want to require it, then you need to re-write the regulation to require it be the standard uniform and restrict commanders discretion to make other uniforms the UOD for regular meetings.

It may be worn rarely at your unit and in your wing and maybe by those actively present here.  Bottom line it is required and it's up to the commander to set and enforce policy. In all the units  I have been in even now it has been the exception not the rule.  A commander can require it and it is on them to require it.  Change for the sake of change or to cater to the few who don't want to play by the rules is pointless.  There is no solid, unbiased or statistical  data to support that the golf shirt is the predominantly worn combo.   

Rewriting the reg because commanders do not want to do their job is silly and pointless.

[abdsp51]

LtCol Lee, you're scenarios certainly provide a different picture, but in all of those prior coordination would have alleviated most of them.  I have said before I would not penalize a cadet for something they have no control over.  Let me ask you this. 

How long has Capt Smith known the inventory was due?

Lt Jones case is correct in assessment it's optional, but I am also on a fixed budget and income and have equipped myself with three different uniform combos. Is all Lt Jones doing is admin and nothing else?

Cadet Davis's case is one for the CP staff and cadet staff to work on. 

The final case said Lt needs an attitude adjustment big time.  His attitude and contempt is not needed nor hopefully desired in our organization.  He's not the only one who is a busy professional and if he's thumbing his nose at uniform policies, then I go back to the earlier question what's stopping him from cutting corners with the A/C?

[Luis R. Ramos]

Ned, thank you very much for telling us the Application for Senior Membership has meaningless words in its oath.You probably remember that form better than me but basically it states that adults swear to obey CAP regs and orders of those put above me. And that everything in it is well empty. This is the implications of the scenarios you present.

You cannot defend both positions. Either you obey or not.

Someone brings a firearm into a courtroom. He has removed the trigger and other key parts so it cannot fire or be loaded with ammunition. That person cannot claim "It is not a firearm as it cannot shoot bullets," right? Well that is basically the argument you are presenting.

Flyer

[Ned]

Ned, thank you very much for telling us the Application for Senior Membership has meaningless words in its oath.You probably remember that form better than me but basically it states that adults swear to obey CAP regs and orders of those put above me. And that everything in it is well empty. This is the implications of the scenarios you present.

You cannot defend both positions. Either you obey or not.
Flyer

Seriously?

In your world all orders must be obeyed, even improper and illegal ones?

That can't be what you are saying.

One of my major points in my post above is that commanders do not have the authority to order or require members to purchase optional uniforms.  Any order that purports to do so is improper and need not be obeyed.

(BTW, lawful and proper orders and directives must be obeyed.  That was kinda the point of Hypo #4.)


But let's look at the implications of your position:


Example:  I am the new cadet squadron commander.  I hereby set the UOD for the first three meetings of the month as Blazer Uniform.  Cadets who do not show up in a proper blazer uniform will be sent home and subject to further discipline.  Everybody better be able to share hundreds of their dollars with Vanguard . . . . or else.

You should be fine with that.  After all, "either you obey or not."

(Hint:  such an order is improper because it directly contradicts the regulation that makes any cadet uniform beyond the minimum basic uniform as "optional."  Members cannot be disciplined for refusing to obey improper orders.  Indeed, commanders who give such improper orders commit misconduct and can be disiplined.)

Example:  Cadet Jones has been a little careless with the storage of his cash at encampment.  I order you to take money from his footlocker to teach him a lesson.

You should be fine with that.  After all, "either you obey or not."


It is not too hard to think of dozens of potential examples of orders that are improper, and which should not be obeyed.  Fortunately, such things are relatively rare in CAP, and even if it happens the stakes are ususally fairly low and everything can be sorted out with a little discussion and training.

But my point remains:  Commanders do not have the authority to order members to purchase optional uniforms.  Any order that purports to do otherwise is improper.


(Again, commanders clearly have the authority to restrict members from performing duties that require the use of an (optional)  field or flight uniform, if the member does not have the proper uniform. But such situations are extremely rare.

[RiverAux]

Hypothesis 1 -- The commander is really at fault for not taking into account the duty he knew Capt. Smith was going to be performing that night. 

Hypothesis 2 - No member is required to participate in ES training or buy the uniforms necessary to carry it out.  The proper answer would be to require those participating in the training to wear BDUs while those that would not be doing that would be provided with some alternative activity with the proper UOD.  Again, the commander messed up.

Hypothesis 3 - Again, the commander messed up by not asking the cadet to bring in his uniform for inspection prior to wearing it to ensure that it was in good shape.  No one is going to go hard on a cadet on his first night wearing the uniform anyway.

Hypothesis 4 -- this is really the only one that directly applies to this conversation.  Since the issue has been discussed with him in the past, yes, I would send him home.  If not already begun with the past counseling session, its time to start documenting this issue and to begin formal disciplinary action.