Rank insignia on the service coat

[Shuman 14]

And you are exhibiting typical troll behavior.

In your opinion... are you a moderator? If you are, ban or suspend me for TOS violations?

If you're not, please continue adding your "productive" input the discussion.

I may not be a moderator but I do not need to be one to call someone out on their bull and behaivor.  I am a far more productive member of this board than you have been.  Maybe I could offer insight into how jacked things in the Army are and offer to fix it??

Please do, I welcome the debate.

[Shuman 14]

And you are exhibiting typical troll behavior.

In your opinion... are you a moderator? If you are, ban or suspend me for TOS violations?

If you're not, please continue adding your "productive" input the discussion.

Lighten up, Francis!

As an acknowledged outsider, with a limited knowledge of CAP, your attempts to "fix" everything you see wrong with CAP can certainly come across as trolling, even if that's not your intent.

Believe it or not, the organization, and its members, have a pretty good idea of the things that need fixed. Many of them have complex solutions that require coordination with the Air Force, which is not always easily accomplished. Others are up against organizational inertia.

IMHO, it's an exercise in mental self-abuse to sit around and point out problems, without an accompanying realistic plan for a solution. Maybe you should put your money where your mouth is, join CAP, and help us change from within.

Francis? I always thought of myself as a Winger. 

Seriously, I didn't start the thread, a CAP member did and I offered my input to the debate. So not being a member of CAP invalidates my observations of your uniforms?

I'm trying to understand the "coordination" and once I do, then  I can recommend a realistic plan.

Several people (CAP members) have pointed out that the reason for the change from all blue to maroon then grey WAS because of unprofessional behavior by CAP members in the past, so to say I'm attacking the organization as whole for pointing that out is wrong.

The purpose of this thread was to debate/discuss possible changes to the CAP uniform, I simply suggested some changes that I believe would make the current CAP more aesthetically pleasing to the public at large yet remain within the USAF's intent that the CAP uniform be visibly different from their uniform. For that I've been attacked and called a troll.

As to joining CAP, I really think I will. My best friend is a member and his oldest son is soon going to be old enough to join so that will be a way for the three of us to socialize together and to continue to serve our Country and community.

But right now I can't. I just graduated from my Masters program in May and I'm now doing the great American job hunt so I can pay off my student loans.


So I guess it wrong

[Eclipse]

Several people (CAP members) have pointed out that the reason for the change from all blue to maroon then grey WAS because of unprofessional behavior by CAP members in the past, so to say I'm attacking the organization as whole for pointing that out is wrong.

That is not what we said, nor is that a clear situation.   That is generally the conjecture of people trying to make a negative point.

If you read >my< post, as well as the hundreds of others related, you would know it is not nearly as clear as that.

Repeating now, there is no "realistic plan" to change this, any more then there can be a "realistic plan" to change an Army uniform because some rank-and-file Sgt doesn't like the material.

The frustration and push-back comes because the history of this is on this site, read up, and you will know it is a sore point and one we are tired of debating, especially since there's no "debate"
to be had.

But right now I can't. I just graduated from my Masters program in May and I'm now doing the great American job hunt so I can pay off my student loans.

You might be surprised how much that $65 investment can pay off by opening yourself up to networking in an organization made up of mostly professionals.
I can draw a straight line from CAP to my most significant sources of income since I left the corporate world about 6 years ago.

And in the mean time it gives you something to do.

[abdsp51]

I agree with you Eclipse.

[Shuman 14]

Repeating now, there is no "realistic plan" to change this, any more then there can be a "realistic plan" to change an Army uniform because some rank-and-file Sgt doesn't like the material.

Any Soldier with a recommendation for a uniform change can contact G-1, HQDA directly and submit their recommendation.

When the Army a few years ago decided to change the Army uniform there was a website called "PBO Soldier", if I remember correctly, which had polls and surveys a Soldier could take regarding proposed changes and a contact email to recommend changes not addressed in the polls and surveys.

There is also an official webforum called the "S-1Net" where you could openly recommend a uniform change, among other things.

With that being said, are you truly telling me their is no mechanism for the rank and file CAP member to recommend a uniform change to your Corporate leadership and the USAF? 

[abdsp51]

Repeating now, there is no "realistic plan" to change this, any more then there can be a "realistic plan" to change an Army uniform because some rank-and-file Sgt doesn't like the material.

Any Soldier with a recommendation for a uniform change can contact G-1, HQDA directly and submit their recommendation.

When the Army a few years ago decided to change the Army uniform there was a website called "PBO Soldier", if I remember correctly, which had polls and surveys a Soldier could take regarding proposed changes and a contact email to recommend changes not addressed in the polls and surveys.

There is also an official webforum called the "S-1Net" where you could openly recommend a uniform change, among other things.

With that being said, are you truly telling me their is no mechanism for the rank and file CAP member to recommend a uniform change to your Corporate leadership and the USAF? 

There is and it is not a frequently used option. It has to run from the members CC to the Group (if there is one), Wing, Region, and finally the NUC.  ANd I have actually pinged NHQ about the whole maroon slides and the response I receieved back was there was going to be a change to the uniform any way.

[Shuman 14]

There is and it is not a frequently used option. It has to run from the members CC to the Group (if there is one), Wing, Region, and finally the NUC.  And I have actually pinged NHQ about the whole maroon slides and the response I received back was there was going to be a change to the uniform any way.

Roger. Thank you.

BTW, I went to the beginning of the Uniforms forum which had post back to 2005 and went forward till about 2007 and I must apologize, I see now that this topic has been beaten to death about a hundred times from a hundred different angles with a hundred different sticks.

My bad, sorry.

[lordmonar]

There is and it is not a frequently used option. It has to run from the members CC to the Group (if there is one), Wing, Region, and finally the NUC.  ANd I have actually pinged NHQ about the whole maroon slides and the response I receieved back was there was going to be a change to the uniform any way.

I can testify...that it does work.  I made a suggestion to my wing commander, wrote up a short sweet and detailed white paper, he put it on the agenda for the NB, it got discussed, modified, voted on, passed and adopted.

So it does work.  Now with the NB no longer an entity......in fact it should be easier for suggestions from the field to get implemented....as now you only have to convince one person that your idea has merit instead of a majority of 60.

[abdsp51]

There is and it is not a frequently used option. It has to run from the members CC to the Group (if there is one), Wing, Region, and finally the NUC.  ANd I have actually pinged NHQ about the whole maroon slides and the response I receieved back was there was going to be a change to the uniform any way.

I can testify...that it does work.  I made a suggestion to my wing commander, wrote up a short sweet and detailed white paper, he put it on the agenda for the NB, it got discussed, modified, voted on, passed and adopted.

So it does work.  Now with the NB no longer an entity......in fact it should be easier for suggestions from the field to get implemented....as now you only have to convince one person that your idea has merit instead of a majority of 60.

Can you share what it was?

[lordmonar]

My basic suggestion was to wear the commander's badge just like the USAF does.

It was modified to be allowed to wear it on BDU/BBDU's and the flight suit.

About a 65% victory from my original suggestion.

[abdsp51]

My basic suggestion was to wear the commander's badge just like the USAF does.

It was modified to be allowed to wear it on BDU/BBDU's and the flight suit.

About a 65% victory from my original suggestion.

That's awesome and should be an inspiration.

[Eclipse]

It was modified to be allowed to wear it on BDU/BBDU's and the flight suit.

The commander's badge is not, and never has been worn on the flight suit.

[lordmonar]

It was modified to be allowed to wear it on BDU/BBDU's and the flight suit.

The commander's badge is not, and never has been worn on the flight suit.

Strange....you can order it from vanguard....and a lot of people do it.



But let's not argue.

[Eclipse]

A commander's badge for the flight suit?

Link?

Not to mention that just because VG sells it doesn't mean it authorized?

[Spaceman3750]

A commander's badge for the flight suit?

Link?

Not to mention that just because VG sells it doesn't mean it authorized?

Per table 6-4, the command badge doesn't appear to be authorized on the flight suit or field uniforms, either one. It is markedly absent from that list. It is present in the list for the aviator, blues, and service uniforms.

[SarDragon]

A commander's badge for the flight suit?

Link?

Not to mention that just because VG sells it doesn't mean it authorized?

h. Leather Name Patch on Flight Suits and Jackets. Effective 10 July 2007, specialty
insignia may be worn on leather name patches in addition to aeronautical badges.

The CAPM 39-1 is unclear on whether the Commander badge is a specialty insignia. They are worn in the same place on the uniform.

[Eclipse]

The commander's badge is clearly not a specialty insignia, and it was. never intended nor authorized for the flight suit.

[Storm Chaser]

There always seems to be a disconnect between what's authorized by CAP and what's sold by Vanguard. CAP should exercise a bit more oversight on this, since many members assume that if Vanguard sells it, then it's authorized.

BTW, the Air Force allows current commanders to wear the badge in their flight suits. I know CAP doesn't, but this could be a change in the new CAPM 39-1.

[NorCal21]

There was no misquote.  And yes you did say 3/4 do not know anything do we need to capture said quote and put it in big bold letters for you to comprehend?  And if units do not have a close relationship with the USAF that is on them to do not the AF.  It is not the USAF's job to educate it's members on us, it is our job as the organization. Members who were trying to brow beat it to death were given proper forums to discuss and introduce such ideas.  Face it if you want a better relationship with Ma blue for your unit get off your rear and keyboard and do something about it.  It is upto you and your unit's leadership to forge and maintain the relationship you claim does not exist.

Knock yourself out with capturing the quote. My post is about three up from yours. I said 3/4 don't know who CAP is or have the wrong idea of who we are. You completely left out the second half of my statement. Therefore... misquote. I also disagree with you that it's not the job of the AF. It may not be their job alone because CAP should play a part as well but we are part of the AF community. We should be part of the AF education.

Again big difference in culture between AF/CAP and USCG/CGAUX. The CGAUX members all just received an email with expanded Exchange privileges for shopping online. You routinely here Team Coast Guard by gold side, silver side and civilian employees. Why? Because the USCG wants each part of the team to feel as if they are an equal part. Clearly the gold side members are a step above being that its what they do as a job and career versus volunteering part-time for the rest of us, but we still play a vital role.

If the AF had the same culture for accepting CAP it would be a world of difference and I believe taking a cue from the Coast Guard will push the AF well beyond its current capabilities and make both organizations significantly greater and more professional. I think your idea on how to achieve greater cooperation between the two is rather poor in all honesty.

[NorCal21]

CAP does not. CAP isn't even the AF Auxiliary except when under official mission orders.

Incorrect and another wive's tale.  CAP is always an auxiliary of the USAF.

And seriously, now we're bringing in SDF's to the conversation.

Well according to 10 USC § 9441 CAP is a nonprofit corporation that is not an instrument of the US Government (and by proxy of the USAF) except under provisions of 9442 (b)(2) stating the CAP is the USAF Auxiliary only when performing missions as assigned by the Secretary of the USAF.

You might want to inform Colorado Wing, Arizona Wing, and USAF leadership at Peterson AFB, Luke AFB, MacDill AFB and the AFA that CAP is always the auxiliary because its from personnel in those organizations where I've been taught what I stated first with the US Code.