Rank insignia on the service coat

[Eclipse]

Well, I don't really know how to respond to that, it's a personal choice to be overweight, not to shave, or not cut your hair.

Not always, nor is it really relevent to the service.  CAP is not building a rapid deployment force, nor do any of its missions
require a fitness level beyond the ability to walk a fair distance and carry a backpack.  In short, if you can make the meeting,
you can do just about anything you could want to in CAP, and the FAA does a fairly good job of mandating medicals for our pilots.

But regardless, this is an issue that effects more then 50% of the adult membership, and the USAF is perfectly happy to accept
the volunteer service, yet feels no mandate to treat everyone equally.

You can make all the arguments about healthy members, etc., but since CAP doesn't provide health care or coverage, it's really
none of their business, as long as the member in question can accomplish the mission.  There's a lot of members in CAP perfectly willing
to give 40-60 hours a week running units and activities, yet when it comes time to be recognized, they are forced to stand in line looking
like a real estate agent or an Olympic judge.  Not to mention the members who believe (falsely) that the customs and courtesies afforded
those in a USAF style uniform can be somehow ignored for those in corporate.  As if they are somehow "less".

[abdsp51]

Well, I don't really know how to respond to that, it's a personal choice to be overweight, not to shave, or not cut your hair.

CAP is not the Military so you can't take them out and PT them to death or order them to shave and get a hair cut.

We have similar issues in the USCGAux, but other than direct augmentation to a USCG vessel or station, the uniform is not required.

Education classes can be taught in the blazer uniform or in authorized polo shirts, same for vessel inspections, Dealer visits, heck even certain patrol missions could be conducted in blue USCGAux t-shirts, boat shorts and PFD.

Plus the USCG seems to, for the most part, let a slightly overweight Auxie or thicker than normal authorized beard slide by, which I guess the USAF doesn't for CAP.

Discriminate much?  There are plenty of documented medical conditions that cause a person to be overweight, as well as medications.  Civil Air Patrol as well as the DoD which you are a commissioned officer of has non discrimination policies.  There are members here who can not actively PT to be within height/weight due to said conditions and members who have family who fall into this category.  You sir seriously lack tact and common sense. 

[Eclipse]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/25/air-force-colonel-waistline/2017841/

"Col. Tim Bush is no longer in command of the 319th Air Base Wing at the base as of Wednesday, Maj. Mike Andrews, spokesman for Air Mobility Command, said in a statement. The wing's vice commander, Col. Christopher Mann, is interim commander until a replacement is found.

Bush had failed the physical fitness test because his waistline was measured at 41 inches, 2 inches above the limit, he said."

Summary - he got hurt, couldn't run, and gained weight.  The USAF lost a valuable asset because of an arbitrary number - there's a lot of
airman and officers in the same boat.  It should be noted he passed all other aspects of PT except the measurement.

You could certainly make the argument that this was someone's plan to make the draw-down easier, but there's a lot of good people affected, including some uber-fit weight lifters and the like.

I am friends with a very fit field-grade officer who was literally starving himself to make the measurement, so the point of actually affecting his
health negatively just to make the number.

Certainly not all of our overweight members are in this sort of category, but clearly this isn't necessarily a "choice" issue.

[Shuman 14]

Well, I don't really know how to respond to that, it's a personal choice to be overweight, not to shave, or not cut your hair.

CAP is not the Military so you can't take them out and PT them to death or order them to shave and get a hair cut.

We have similar issues in the USCGAux, but other than direct augmentation to a USCG vessel or station, the uniform is not required.

Education classes can be taught in the blazer uniform or in authorized polo shirts, same for vessel inspections, Dealer visits, heck even certain patrol missions could be conducted in blue USCGAux t-shirts, boat shorts and PFD.

Plus the USCG seems to, for the most part, let a slightly overweight Auxie or thicker than normal authorized beard slide by, which I guess the USAF doesn't for CAP.

Discriminate much?  There are plenty of documented medical conditions that cause a person to be overweight, as well as medications.  Civil Air Patrol as well as the DoD which you are a commissioned officer of has non discrimination policies.  There are members here who can not actively PT to be within height/weight due to said conditions and members who have family who fall into this category.  You sir seriously lack tact and common sense.

And your personal attacks are becoming tiresome. 

Yes, there are some cases of medical issues but the majority of people who are over weight simply need to lower their calorie intake and increase their physical activity.  That's not discrimination, that's a fact.

Not saying anyone needs to be a track and field star but if everyone walked an extra mile each day, this would be a much fitter country.

BTW, you do know that failure to meet height and weight standards are still grounds to be discharged from all Branches of the Armed Services. Again not discrimination, but a fact.

[Shuman 14]

Not to mention the members who believe (falsely) that the customs and courtesies afforded
those in a USAF style uniform can be somehow ignored for those in corporate.  As if they are somehow "less".

That's just plain wrong, and I am sorry that is happening.

[Eclipse]

BTW, you do know that failure to meet height and weight standards are still grounds to be discharged from all Branches of the Armed Services. Again not discrimination, but a fact.

Your argument in this regard holds no weight when discussing the issue in the CAP context.

CAP makes no "investment" in the membership, in fact, in most cases it is quite the opposite, especially for those not involved in ES.
One could make the argument that USAF fuel spent in training members is an "investment", however in that regard there are zero
expectations of returning service for training, nor is there any data that members wearing green flight suit fly better then those in blue.

As mentioned earlier, CAP provides no health care or coverage for members, nor do they provide income, shelter, or sustenance.
The military effectively "owns" people for the duration of their commitment, and as such, provides for their life needs 24x7x365, including
in many cases lifetime care and a nice retirement.  In return, they expect obedience,  readiness, and fitness commensurate with duty requirments.  A fair deal.

CAP, by design, depends on the benevolence of it's members to provide their skills and treasure in a "come as you are" fashion.  That's where the
ROI on the organization rests - people bringing their skill and experience to the table, for free, in service to their country. 

What's that got to do with a height/weight table that is arbitrary and does not match the demographics of the very people who you are recruiting?

It's an affectation, nothing more.

[Shuman 14]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/25/air-force-colonel-waistline/2017841/

"Col. Tim Bush is no longer in command of the 319th Air Base Wing at the base as of Wednesday, Maj. Mike Andrews, spokesman for Air Mobility Command, said in a statement. The wing's vice commander, Col. Christopher Mann, is interim commander until a replacement is found.

Bush had failed the physical fitness test because his waistline was measured at 41 inches, 2 inches above the limit, he said."

Summary - he got hurt, couldn't run, and gained weight.  The USAF lost a valuable asset because of an arbitrary number - there's a lot of
airman and officers in the same boat.  It should be noted he passed all other aspects of PT except the measurement.

You could certainly make the argument that this was someone's plan to make the draw-down easier, but there's a lot of good people affected, including some uber-fit weight lifters and the like.

I am friends with a very fit field-grade officer who was literally starving himself to make the measurement, so the point of actually affecting his
health negatively just to make the number.

Certainly not all of our overweight members are in this sort of category, but clearly this isn't necessarily a "choice" issue.

I take it the Air Force doesn't have a body fat percentage like the Army?

I'd say for most of my Army career I've never been within table height/weight but I've always been within body fat percentage.

And you're most likely right, in 2005, at the height of the ground war in Iraq, fat or thin it didn't matter, needed bodies in uniform so they kept everybody and took everybody willing to enlist.

Now, like the draw downs under Clinton, they'll use any excuse to put someone out.

So when the next ground war starts (most likely in Syria) we'll be scampering to find bodies... again. 

[Shuman 14]

BTW, you do know that failure to meet height and weight standards are still grounds to be discharged from all Branches of the Armed Services. Again not discrimination, but a fact.

Your argument in this regard holds no weight when discussing the issue in the CAP context.

CAP makes no "investment" in the membership, in fact, in most cases it is quite the opposite, especially for those not involved in ES.
One could make the argument that USAF fuel spent in training members is an "investment", however in that regard there are zero
expectations of returning service for training, nor is there any data that members wearing green flight suit fly better then those in blue.

As mentioned earlier, CAP provides no health care or coverage for members, nor do they provide income, shelter, or sustenance.
The military effectively "owns" people for the duration of their commitment, and as such, provides for their life needs 24x7x365, including
in many cases lifetime care and a nice retirement.  In return, they expect obedience,  readiness, and fitness commensurate with duty requirments.  A fair deal.

CAP, by design, depends on the benevolence of it's members to provide their skills and treasure in a "come as you are" fashion.  That's where the
ROI on the organization rests - people bringing their skill and experience to the table, for free, in service to their country. 

What's that got to do with a height/weight table that is arbitrary and does not match the demographics of the very people who you are recruiting?

It's an affectation, nothing more.

Wasn't making the argument regarding CAP but in response to the "DoD doesn't discriminate" comment.

[Eclipse]

I take it the Air Force doesn't have a body fat percentage like the Army?

It does not.  A couple of years ago it went to a static max waist measurement, regardless of your height.

Interestingly, there was a period of time where CAP's standards were actually more strict then the USAF as they moved to
a performance-based PT system and away from tables.  Then the pendulum swung the other way and now they have very
strict measurements that become part of your PT score.

[Shuman 14]

I take it the Air Force doesn't have a body fat percentage like the Army?

It does not.  A couple of years ago it went to a static max waist measurement, regardless of your height.

Interestingly, there was a period of time where CAP's standards were actually more strict then the USAF as they moved to
a performance-based PT system and away from tables.  Then the pendulum swung the other way and now they have very
strict measurements that become part of your PT score.

The Army's test does a neck and waist measurement and factors in your age to get an allowable percentage.

The base table in my opinion is fubar. Theoretically, you could, for certain heights, be 30% body fat, but you will pass the base table.

Conversely, the WWE bodybuilder will never pass the base table but on tape test will have less then 9% body fat.

Personally, if you can pass the PT test, I think that should be it and that we do away with the height/weight requirements.

I remember guys in basic Training that were passing their APFT with no problems but they didn't pass the height/weight so the Drill SGTs darn near starved them to death and made them run extra PT in the evenings to get them under weight.

[abdsp51]

And your personal attacks are becoming tiresome. 

Yes, there are some cases of medical issues but the majority of people who are over weight simply need to lower their calorie intake and increase their physical activity.  That's not discrimination, that's a fact.

Not saying anyone needs to be a track and field star but if everyone walked an extra mile each day, this would be a much fitter country.

BTW, you do know that failure to meet height and weight standards are still grounds to be discharged from all Branches of the Armed Services. Again not discrimination, but a fact.

If I was personally attacking you you would know it.  I think you just can't tolerate being called out on your bs and try to play the victim card.  Man up own up to your own verbiage your words not mine that are called out.  You make blanket statements and try to play the victim when your called on it, shows where your integrity is at.

[Shuman 14]

And your personal attacks are becoming tiresome. 

Yes, there are some cases of medical issues but the majority of people who are over weight simply need to lower their calorie intake and increase their physical activity.  That's not discrimination, that's a fact.

Not saying anyone needs to be a track and field star but if everyone walked an extra mile each day, this would be a much fitter country.

BTW, you do know that failure to meet height and weight standards are still grounds to be discharged from all Branches of the Armed Services. Again not discrimination, but a fact.

If I was personally attacking you you would know it.  I think you just can't tolerate being called out on your bs and try to play the victim card.  Man up own up to your own verbiage your words not mine that are called out.  You make blanket statements and try to play the victim when your called on it, shows where your integrity is at.

Really, you're very professional aren't you. 

[abdsp51]

And your personal attacks are becoming tiresome. 

Yes, there are some cases of medical issues but the majority of people who are over weight simply need to lower their calorie intake and increase their physical activity.  That's not discrimination, that's a fact.

Not saying anyone needs to be a track and field star but if everyone walked an extra mile each day, this would be a much fitter country.

BTW, you do know that failure to meet height and weight standards are still grounds to be discharged from all Branches of the Armed Services. Again not discrimination, but a fact.

If I was personally attacking you you would know it.  I think you just can't tolerate being called out on your bs and try to play the victim card.  Man up own up to your own verbiage your words not mine that are called out.  You make blanket statements and try to play the victim when your called on it, shows where your integrity is at.

Really, you're very professional aren't you. 

And you are exhibiting typical troll behavior.

[SarDragon]

Tick-tock.Tick-tock.Tick-tock.

[abdsp51]

Tick-tock.Tick-tock.Tick-tock.

Yep, seriously overdue.

[Shuman 14]

And you are exhibiting typical troll behavior.

In your opinion... are you a moderator? If you are, ban or suspend me for TOS violations?

If you're not, please continue adding your "productive" input the discussion.

[AlphaSigOU]

Tick-tock.Tick-tock.Tick-tock.

Can't stop the clock...

[SarDragon]

And you are exhibiting typical troll behavior.

In your opinion... are you a moderator? If you are, ban or suspend me for TOS violations?

If you're not, please continue adding your "productive" input the discussion.

Lighten up, Francis!

As an acknowledged outsider, with a limited knowledge of CAP, your attempts to "fix" everything you see wrong with CAP can certainly come across as trolling, even if that's not your intent.

Believe it or not, the organization, and its members, have a pretty good idea of the things that need fixed. Many of them have complex solutions that require coordination with the Air Force, which is not always easily accomplished. Others are up against organizational inertia.

IMHO, it's an exercise in mental self-abuse to sit around and point out problems, without an accompanying realistic plan for a solution. Maybe you should put your money where your mouth is, join CAP, and help us change from within.

[abdsp51]

And you are exhibiting typical troll behavior.

In your opinion... are you a moderator? If you are, ban or suspend me for TOS violations?

If you're not, please continue adding your "productive" input the discussion.

I may not be a moderator but I do not need to be one to call someone out on their bull and behaivor.  I am a far more productive member of this board than you have been.  Maybe I could offer insight into how jacked things in the Army are and offer to fix it??

[BillB]

Does Radioman have a new screen name?