Rank insignia on the service coat

[abdsp51]

Well as the newbie here and as the outsider looking in I agree that the grey epaulets do look a little off and I can see how some CAP members might be put off by them and how it could feel like a "mass punishment" for an offense committed over twenty years ago.

When I was in HS I can vaguely remember CAP Officers wearing the letters "C.A.P." in place of the letters "U.S." on the tunic lapels and a different nametag, but otherwise they looked exactly like an USAF Officer.

There is Good, and Bad, in that.

One Team - One Fight, with a common uniform and a common look is the good thing.

Being confused for an USAF Officer is the bad.

Both are subject to abuse by unprofessional CAP members trolling for salutes.

Maybe you could take an example from the USCGAux on their office insignia.

I know the silver vs gold USCG style shoulder boards might not work for CAP but all USCGAux pin-on and sew-on insignia (i.e. rank) all have a superimposed letter "A" for Auxiliary on them. So maybe a solution would be to create rank insignia with a superimposed "CAP" on them? Using red (or maroon) as the letter color will make them stand out on the silver or gold rank device.

Another solution might be to create a colored felt or plastic backer to your rank insignia like the light blue discs used by US Army Infantry personnel. This would create a colored border around your rank which make it clearly different at a glance but not look as "off" as the current grey epaulets. Again a red border (or maroon) around your rank on the blue coat/jacket/tunic epaulets would actually look very good.

Plus with modern embroidery, making epaulet slides for your shirts with either superimposed red "CAP" letters or a red rank borders (or both) on a blue slide would not be hard.

Again just a suggestion from someone outside your organization who thinks you do great work and wants you to look good while doing it.

Your words not mine, do you dispute the quoted and bolded areas?   You basically said that our slides were jacked and these are fixes to it.  I have no issues with  the grey at all and I believe IMHO that they are a suitable contrast to the blue.  Again you came here and spouted off and wanted a warm reception.  You remind me of a holier than though lawyer that was here a month ago.

[Shuman 14]

Phall tends to be somewhat "direct" for no particular reason based we guess on his gastrointestinal health, so I wouldn't take his
shot as typical for here.

With that said calling our uniform "god awful" isn't exactly going to get you on the "nice" Christmas card list, either.
Every service has a few inexplicable things that don't look "right" to an outsider, but simply "are".

Our status keeps use squarely in the sites of just about everyone, with little advantage for all the opinions and approvals we
have to get to make what would seem like logical "minor" changes.  It makes all of us somewhat sensitive about the situation because
neither logic, nor the opinion of the masses, is generally utilized in the ultimate decisions.

Further compounding the issue is that we have to deal with the perceived financial burden placed on the membership, especially
cadets, when major changes are made.  I personally think this is mostly a red herring, but it's a piece of the puzzle.

I never said the uniform was bad I said the slides were godawful (BTW my spell checkers says its one word).

Clearly by reading the post in this thread, others threads on this forum and on Military.com, many members of CAP seem dissatisfied with the current uniform choices in whole or in part. So it's not just me standing on a soapbox in the desert.

As I've said before, I think you do great work and I'd like for you to look good doing it. But I guess that makes me a troll.

[Eclipse]

So do you think the grey epaulets look good? I agree they do look better than the maroon, but are the best color choice, in your opinion?

If you too believe that the grey epaulets could be better done or done away with, why don't you want to discuss it? The fact that an outsider brought up the discussion shouldn't matter... should it?

Why not?  Because it's been discussed to death.  Literally.  To. Death.  Generally by new, well-intentioned members or outsiders seeking to "fix" CAP.

It doesn't matter if we like them, they are the best choice, or what the color is.  They are what has been authorized by the USAF.  So "discussing" it, just annoys the monkey.

Look at the number of meaningless threads on uniforms on this board and you will see why most of us are tired of the conversation(s).  The majority of our members are not
prior-service, so a uniform is a unique and generally fun thing that is a tangible discussion point both from a "how-to" and a "why" perspective.  Unfortunately many get so wrapped up
in them that they forget why they joined in the first place, and they become the focal point of their all-too-short time in CAP.  Either because they are frustrated with the current state, never get full or correct answers from their inconsistently trained leadership, or simply don't "get it".

[Shuman 14]

Your words not mine, do you dispute the quoted and bolded areas?   You basically said that our slides were jacked and these are fixes to it.  I have no issues with  the grey at all and I believe IMHO that they are a suitable contrast to the blue.  Again you came here and spouted off and wanted a warm reception.  You remind me of a holier than though lawyer that was here a month ago.

You're taking my words out of context, I accused no one of that, and as several subject matter experts here pointed out in this thread that was exact reason for the change.

Again, how do you spur debate without offering "point" and "counterpoint"?

Now, if you took my suggestions as a personal insult or a general insult directed at the CAP uniform, I apologize, that was never my intention.

[Shuman 14]

So do you think the grey epaulets look good? I agree they do look better than the maroon, but are the best color choice, in your opinion?

If you too believe that the grey epaulets could be better done or done away with, why don't you want to discuss it? The fact that an outsider brought up the discussion shouldn't matter... should it?

Why not?  Because it's been discussed to death.  Literally.  To. Death.  Generally by new, well-intentioned members or outsiders seeking to "fix" CAP.

It doesn't matter if we like them, they are the best choice, or what the color is.  They are what has been authorized by the USAF.  So "discussing" it, just annoys the monkey.

Then how do you EVER effect change? Somewhere the idea gets started and works it way up the chain and a change gets implemented.

If discussions here spur that idea, how is that bad?

BTW, sorry if I'm beating the dead horse, this is new to me, personally, I'm sorry if I'm fighting a fight that was lost long ago... I didn't know. 

[Eclipse]

Dead horse, fight lost years ago (and possibly re-lost due to HWSRN's unilateral actions in creating a "corporate service uniform").

There's no change to be made, no debate to be had.  Word is an updated uniform manual is in the final draft stages, and that
may bring a new field uniform (I still don't think it's going to happen), but beyond that, we don't need to change anything else.

[abdsp51]

You will find only a handful are dissatisfied with grey slides.  And they know/knew how to recommend uniform changes for consideration and none of them at least to the knowledge of members here know went  forward with it.  And military.com is about as trustworthy as a con artist. And you effect change by going through channels you as a Army officer should know that just as well as anyone.  And you sure don't effect change by doing what you did.

[Shuman 14]

You will find only a handful are dissatisfied with grey slides.  And they know/knew how to recommend uniform changes for consideration and none of them at least to the knowledge of members here know went  forward with it.  And military.com is about as trustworthy as a con artist. And you effect change by going through channels you as a Army officer should know that just as well as anyone.  And you sure don't effect change by doing what you did.

Well they are vocal handful then.

As I'm an outsider, I don't know the "channels" that CAP uses.

As to effecting change, this isn't an "official" forum of the CAP, is it? It is "a discussion board for the Civil Air Patrol community", this was a discussion that started in one thread, was brought out into this thread, and here we are going thru a point - counterpoint, which truly is the purpose of a discussion forum.

We're trying to have a healthy debate, which some of us enjoy... you're just attacking me. 

I've said I'm sorry if I insulted you or CAP in general, what more would you like? 

[Shuman 14]

Dead horse, fight lost years ago (and possibly re-lost due to HWSRN's unilateral actions in creating a "corporate service uniform").

There's no change to be made, no debate to be had.  Word is an updated uniform manual is in the final draft stages, and that
may bring a new field uniform (I still don't think it's going to happen), but beyond that, we don't need to change anything else.

Again, excuse my ignorance what/who is HWSRN, and what did he/she/it do?

[PHall]

Dead horse, fight lost years ago (and possibly re-lost due to HWSRN's unilateral actions in creating a "corporate service uniform").

There's no change to be made, no debate to be had.  Word is an updated uniform manual is in the final draft stages, and that
may bring a new field uniform (I still don't think it's going to happen), but beyond that, we don't need to change anything else.

Again, excuse my ignorance what/who is HWSRN, and what did he/she/it do?

"He Who Shall Not Be Named", former National Commander who was removed from office not by his choice.

[wuzafuzz]

I'm not talking about the nearly mythical salute troll, but a CAP member going about their business responsibly and wearing the uniform properly.  The wailing and gnashing of teeth on this issue is all out of proportion to the incidence of actual incidents.

What you do you mean "nearly mythical?" Its a well documented problem in CAP. That doesn't mean its a common problem at all, but we all know it happens. We've either seen it, or there are members who have been booted for doing exactly that. Just like the Major (CAP) who was on a base around Kansas or something demanding a salute from the SP at the gate. There's nothing mythical about it.

What do I mean by "nearly mythical?"  I believe I answered that when I wrote "The wailing and gnashing of teeth on this issue is all out of proportion to the incidence of actual incidents."  Perhaps I should have said the frequency of actual incidents, but that's nit picking.

You assert salute trolling is a well documented problem in CAP, yet I have NEVER witnessed a single problem.  I've only heard of such problems by reading CAP Talk and the occasional gripe on some other discussion board that becomes a discussion topic here.  The tale from a guy who knew a gal who heard from some dude on the Internet does not prove a well documented problem.  I allow the "nearly mythical" status because I am a cynic and believe some goober, somewhere, has donned his or her CAP uniform and wandered about hoping for a salute to artificially inflate their low self-esteem.  In those rare instances leadership should deal with the problem and then move on.

I have not seen proof of an endemic problem.  Absent such evidence I believe salute trolls are an aberration.  Unfortunately tales of those events become the seeds for even more entertaining stories shared by those with an axe to grind. 

On the subject of grey epaulets, I think they look a little goofy.  My opinion is irrelevant though.  The Air Force says to wear them so we wear them.  The polo shirt meets 95% of my uniform needs so I'm not losing any sleep over epaulets, shiny rank insignia, or BDU's/ABU's/red shirts. 

[Shuman 14]

Dead horse, fight lost years ago (and possibly re-lost due to HWSRN's unilateral actions in creating a "corporate service uniform").

There's no change to be made, no debate to be had.  Word is an updated uniform manual is in the final draft stages, and that
may bring a new field uniform (I still don't think it's going to happen), but beyond that, we don't need to change anything else.

Again, excuse my ignorance what/who is HWSRN, and what did he/she/it do?

"He Who Shall Not Be Named", former National Commander who was removed from office not by his choice.

OK... really that bad, huh?

[SarDragon]

Joe, we have folks on here all the way from 12 yo cadets to ex- or sitting wing commanders to a member of the Board of Governors. It may be unofficial, but there are some heavy hitters who can "pass the word" both up and down the pipe. There have been changes made based on discussion here, but when it comes to uniforms, the AF makes the rules. CAP has limited input in changes.

[Shuman 14]

Joe, we have folks on here all the way from 12 yo cadets to ex- or sitting wing commanders to a member of the Board of Governors. It may be unofficial, but there are some heavy hitters who can "pass the word" both up and down the pipe. There have been changes made based on discussion here, but when it comes to uniforms, the AF makes the rules. CAP has limited input in changes.

Dave, thanks for the info. Truly I kinda thought that was the case, but there is some input from the membership to the leadership and management of CAP, and from them to USAF, isn't there?

I mean it seems to me that the Air Force itself isn't happy with it's uniforms. In my 23 years of Service I've seen the USAF change it uniform three times and experiment with changes so many times it make your head spin.

There was the old Army style:



Then there was the experiment to add hard shoulder boards to it:



Then there was the airline style with naval sleeve rank:



And now the current uniform:



Then recently we had these experiments:







Personally I liked the belted, WWII style, very traditional.

So as the Air Force changes, so will CAP.

With the recent news in Congress about a bill to mandate all the Services to adopt a single field/combat uniform, it's probably a good thing that CAP didn't adopt the ABU, because it may be gone soon, but stocks of BDUs will eventually dry up too... and then?

I think/believe that the USAF wouldn't be opposed to the change, I point to the States that have operational Airwings within their SDFs.

The SDF Airwing uniforms are mirror images of the USAF uniform with the only real changes being the red name tag, State Seal buttons replacing the federal ones and the States' two letter initials replacing the "U.S." cutouts on the coat lapels, adding the same State initials to the epaulet slides and adding a State Seal to hat badge, either replacing the 13 Stars above the Eagle or added to the shield on it's chest.



So I really don't think the change would really be that hard to get approved, if the membership of CAP wanted it and pushed for it thru the proper channels.

[Eclipse]

SDF's and other organizations can do whatever they want - only CAP is under the command of the USAF.  This seems to be lost on a lot of people.

[Shuman 14]

SDF's and other organizations can do whatever they want - only CAP is under the command of the USAF.  This seems to be lost on a lot of people.

Well the various Air National Guards are part of the Air Force (when in Title 10 status), and the various SDF Airwings fall under their parent AFNG, so approval for their use of the Air Force uniform did come from somewhere within the USAF.

That being said, I can't see why the USAF wouldn't grant a reasonable uniform change request from the CAP, again if that is what the membership wanted.

Has there ever been a poll or survey taken of the membership of CAP it get their thoughts on this?

[Eclipse]

What are we requesting and why?

We don't need to change anything beyond closing the schism caused by over 1/2 our membership not being able to wear the same thing as the
over members. 

That's about the only thing "important" right now.

CAP doesn't actually have a "uniform", it has class-specific menu.

[Shuman 14]

What are we requesting and why?

We don't need to change anything beyond closing the schism caused by over 1/2 our membership not being able to wear the same thing as the
over members. 

That's about the only thing "important" right now.

CAP doesn't actually have a "uniform", it has class-specific menu.

Is that for those who can't meet height/weight requirements?

[Eclipse]

Also grooming as in hair and beards.

[Shuman 14]

Well, I don't really know how to respond to that, it's a personal choice to be overweight, not to shave, or not cut your hair.

CAP is not the Military so you can't take them out and PT them to death or order them to shave and get a hair cut.

We have similar issues in the USCGAux, but other than direct augmentation to a USCG vessel or station, the uniform is not required.

Education classes can be taught in the blazer uniform or in authorized polo shirts, same for vessel inspections, Dealer visits, heck even certain patrol missions could be conducted in blue USCGAux t-shirts, boat shorts and PFD.

Plus the USCG seems to, for the most part, let a slightly overweight Auxie or thicker than normal authorized beard slide by, which I guess the USAF doesn't for CAP.