Community service ribbon: ACTUAL qualifications and proof?

[Eclipse]

In practicality, what's the difference?

Nothing but the rules, such that they are.

You could make the argument that at least member "B" was a financial supporter for that time.
Also, if he was able to keep currently monthly, meaning all required safety briefs, etc., then he's not really "clueless", since
he's at least been in the system every month.

[SARDOC]

In practicality, what's the difference?

Nothing but the rules, such that they are.

You could make the argument that at least member "B" was a financial supporter for that time.
Also, if he was able to keep currently monthly, meaning all required safety briefs, etc., then he's not really "clueless", since
he's at least been in the system every month.

Financial Supporter, Yes...but as a Patron Member there is no required safety briefings or activities but their grade is reinstated upon coming active again.  Yes, SLS/CLC/UCC and other PD requirements change over time but there is no requirement that having let your membership lapse that you would have to take those courses again.  If I left for ten years came back and provided proof that I attended SLS in 1992 when I first became a CAP Senior Member...I still wouldn't be required to take it again.  They don't expire for Professional Development purposes.

I think as an active member you probably should retake this courses periodically just to make sure things are done consistently across the organization but there is nothing in 50-17 that requires that. 

We don't have a finite number of positions and there is no actually authority associated with ranks so if someone who has previously completed advanced professional development awards...why shouldn't they have their grade reinstated.  We have Lieutenant Colonels who have only completed Level One because of their Military Experience and know absolutely nothing about Civil Air Patrol Operations.  So why wouldn't we also recognize the achievements of one of our own prior members...if after all we value the efforts of our members both past and present.

[SarDragon]

In practicality, what's the difference?

Nothing but the rules, such that they are.

You could make the argument that at least member "B" was a financial supporter for that time.
Also, if he was able to keep currently monthly, meaning all required safety briefs, etc., then he's not really "clueless", since
he's at least been in the system every month.

This happened long before safety briefings, and the other monthly "gotta-haves" now in place. No eServices, either. 1989-1999

[Eclipse]

I know - hey, rules is rules.

Write a check and don't be a PITA for the commander, maintain everything.

Don't and do, not so much.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Someone who quit in 1999 and comes back today would have difficulty recognizing CAP.  If promotions are based on Professional Development, which itself is supposed
to be a gauge of progress activity and experience, then if what you "know" isn't relevent, then on what basis is the grade still conferred?

Which is one reason I offered to climb the ladder again when I rejoined almost four years ago.  That included not wearing the ribbons I had earned previously.

I had a very strong feeling that my "ancient history" accomplishments in CAP would hobble me in the here and now, and I was right.  When I was recently denied promotion, I was told that one reason (there were others, very personal, that some here are privy to, I won't get into them) was that it was because the "sell-by" date of said accomplishments was long past.

SLS - 1994
CLC - 1994
ECI 13 - 1995
Yeager - 1997
Instructor, SLS - 2006
Master rating - 2004

You get the idea.

People at both the squadron and wing level thought I was nuts (for not actively campaigning to get my old rank back.

Even so, now, I have tried to re-take some of this stuff; i.e. OBC...but E-Services tells me I don't need it!

So it's hanged if you do or if you don't.

[SarDragon]

If it's in eServices, it's there. The system doesn't care.

As for "sell-by" dates, the Yeager's the Yeager; no need to re-do it. OBC - as long as the demand exceeds the supply, there won't be many people retaking it, even if it would be beneficial. SLS and CLC - download the lecture and student material, and refresh yourself.

Master rating - do the same, bring yourself up to date. The basic knowledge and skills should still be there.

Instructor - once you've done it, it's done. There's no reason you can't do it again if you want, though. I'm certainly working on doing it again, because I like to do it, and have decent competency.

Don't construct personal obstacles for yourself. It doesn't do anyone any good.

[Walkman]

I think as an active member you probably should retake this courses periodically just to make sure things are done consistently across the organization but there is nothing in 50-17 that requires that. 

I agree, but think it would be better to come back to the course as an instructor. The first semester I taught a college class I was filling in last minute for a personnel shortage. The class covered software I had used for 10 years at that point. I used this app 30 hours a week, but when I had to step back and really teach it so that others could do what I did, a whole new level of proficiency and expertise developed. I always ask and encourage newer qual'ed ES students to help teach the next group (at their own pace), so they can really grasp hold of the content.

[SARDOC]

I think as an active member you probably should retake this courses periodically just to make sure things are done consistently across the organization but there is nothing in 50-17 that requires that. 

I agree, but think it would be better to come back to the course as an instructor. The first semester I taught a college class I was filling in last minute for a personnel shortage. The class covered software I had used for 10 years at that point. I used this app 30 hours a week, but when I had to step back and really teach it so that others could do what I did, a whole new level of proficiency and expertise developed. I always ask and encourage newer qual'ed ES students to help teach the next group (at their own pace), so they can really grasp hold of the content.

I also agree that is the best course of action but that is not an option for everyone.  For tasks I usually follow the "Watch One, Do One, Teach One" Philosophy for students to completely understand they've completely grasped the concept.  For Members who have been out and inactive for a prolonged period of time should retake them as students before teaching them though.

[ColonelJack]

I'm of two minds about the "retaking the courses" discussion.

On the one hand, those who've said that people (like me) who spent a prolonged period away from active CAP membership should refresh themselves on the way things are done now are right.  After all, many things changed between 1997, when I retired, and 2009, when I rejoined.  And it was my responsibility to bring myself up to date on as much as I needed.

However, as CyBorg points out, once something is entered into E-Services, earning the ratings (or whatever) again is difficult.  If you are already listed as having the training, the system won't accept anything contradictory - such as getting the training again.

I'm a little confused about the "sell-by" date reference, though.  I earned my GRW in 1991.  As we all know, that means that I completed the five-level Civil Air Patrol Professional Development program.  Upon my becoming an active member again, I had to go through Level I again, primarily because many things did indeed change while I was away.  I don't, however, think I should have to re-do all of my Level II, III, IV, and V training just to achieve a fresher "date" on my awards.  (The various specialties in which I previously had Master ratings I am re-doing, but primarily to be proficient in those specialties again.  It sure ain't for the bling.) 

And SarDoc - you're right.  The Wing CC's sole call was approve my reinstatement as a lieutenant colonel or not; nothing in the regulations allowed him to decide I should come back in at a lower grade than I had earned and have to earn it again.  I think that my Squadron CC pointed that out to him.

Jack

[jimmydeanno]

This situation almost screams for specialty ratings that expire. 

If you've been home for 20 years, come back, and consider yourself a cadet program expert, you have another thing coming.  Taking TLC would be a good refresher to get your rating current again.

However, not every specialty has a cool course like that which would bring someone up to speed on the current programs.  Keep your do-dads or whatnot, but before working in the specialty (assigned) you need to get your rating up to date.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I'm a little confused about the "sell-by" date reference, though.

Basically, I have been told that although I had all the qualifications (including Level III/Loening completed in 2004), due to the time passed since the accomplishments, they were not acceptable in the "here and now" in terms of promotability.

I had been out for three years (2006-2009) before coming back into CAP.

[ColonelJack]

I'm a little confused about the "sell-by" date reference, though.

Basically, I have been told that although I had all the qualifications (including Level III/Loening completed in 2004), due to the time passed since the accomplishments, they were not acceptable in the "here and now" in terms of promotability.

I had been out for three years (2006-2009) before coming back into CAP.

I think you're being sold a bill of goods there.  Careful review of the regulations cites the requirements for promotion, but (unless I missed something) there's no requirement that the achievement be accomplished by a specific date. 

For example, if a member completes his Loening in 2008, but isn't eligible for promotion to major until 2012, does that mean he's not promotable?  Not at all.  The regs cite what PD level must be achieved; there's nothing in there that says "must be achieved within the past X years."

I'd inquire with higher HQ if that's the stated reason for your being denied promotion.  This sounds similar to what my Wing CC tried to do with me when I rejoined in 2009.

Jack

[ColonelJack]

This situation almost screams for specialty ratings that expire. 

If you've been home for 20 years, come back, and consider yourself a cadet program expert, you have another thing coming.  Taking TLC would be a good refresher to get your rating current again.

However, not every specialty has a cool course like that which would bring someone up to speed on the current programs.  Keep your do-dads or whatnot, but before working in the specialty (assigned) you need to get your rating up to date.

100% concur!  And that's what I did...at least in the areas where I was assigned when I came back.  As for the others, I'm re-acquiring the skills as I have spare time.

Jack

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I'm a little confused about the "sell-by" date reference, though.

Basically, I have been told that although I had all the qualifications (including Level III/Loening completed in 2004), due to the time passed since the accomplishments, they were not acceptable in the "here and now" in terms of promotability.

I had been out for three years (2006-2009) before coming back into CAP.

I think you're being sold a bill of goods there.  Careful review of the regulations cites the requirements for promotion, but (unless I missed something) there's no requirement that the achievement be accomplished by a specific date. 

For example, if a member completes his Loening in 2008, but isn't eligible for promotion to major until 2012, does that mean he's not promotable?  Not at all.  The regs cite what PD level must be achieved; there's nothing in there that says "must be achieved within the past X years."

I'd inquire with higher HQ if that's the stated reason for your being denied promotion.

Jack

There's more, sir, but not what I wish to go into here.  PM sent.

[Private Investigator]

I'm a little confused about the "sell-by" date reference, though.

Basically, I have been told that although I had all the qualifications (including Level III/Loening completed in 2004), due to the time passed since the accomplishments, they were not acceptable in the "here and now" in terms of promotability.

I had been out for three years (2006-2009) before coming back into CAP.

As a Group Commander and a Squadron Commander I had people leave and come back. If you left in 2006 and you came back in 2009. When I reinstated people to their previous grade I told them up front your time begins "today" for that next promotion. Not a date of rank from 2003 and some how they think they have been a Captain for ten years. 

So in my book if I reinstated you to Captain on 4-1-2009 you will be up for Major on 4-1-2012, 'with' your Unit Commanders approval. 

[mwewing]

Someone who quit in 1999 and comes back today would have difficulty recognizing CAP.  If promotions are based on Professional Development, which itself is supposed
to be a gauge of progress activity and experience, then if what you "know" isn't relevent, then on what basis is the grade still conferred?

Which is one reason I offered to climb the ladder again when I rejoined almost four years ago.  That included not wearing the ribbons I had earned previously.

I had a very strong feeling that my "ancient history" accomplishments in CAP would hobble me in the here and now, and I was right.  When I was recently denied promotion, I was told that one reason (there were others, very personal, that some here are privy to, I won't get into them) was that it was because the "sell-by" date of said accomplishments was long past.

SLS - 1994
CLC - 1994
ECI 13 - 1995
Yeager - 1997
Instructor, SLS - 2006
Master rating - 2004

You get the idea.

People at both the squadron and wing level thought I was nuts (for not actively campaigning to get my old rank back.

Even so, now, I have tried to re-take some of this stuff; i.e. OBC...but E-Services tells me I don't need it!

So it's hanged if you do or if you don't.

I can see how someone with an extended absence might be rusty on some of the information they once had. If I were the unit commander involved, I would have the member rejoining brush up on the relevant material, and engage in some conversations as related to PD courses, and specialty ratings. Perhaps some summary conversations with others in a specialty track, or a mini SLS type activity for unit review. All of this BEFORE submitting a request for reinstatement of grade. This would demonstrate proficiency at current expectations, without needing to start at square 1. With regard to awards and decorations previously earned... if there is proof of award available I don't see why they can't be worn.

Basically, I have been told that although I had all the qualifications (including Level III/Loening completed in 2004), due to the time passed since the accomplishments, they were not acceptable in the "here and now" in terms of promotability.

I had been out for three years (2006-2009) before coming back into CAP.

Likewise with a request for promotion, I would work to demonstrate the member's proficiency in the required areas. If one is seeking promotion to Maj based on "outdated" level III PD courses, or specialty track ratings, this would be helpful. It is also important to remember that these represent the minimum qualifications for the promotion. If this request is coming shortly after a member rejoins from an extended absence, there might be some questions at the Wing level. Although if you rejoined as Capt. in 2009, you should have TIG covered. Including information on what the member is doing for the unit, or plans to do in the future can help overcome this resistance.

As a general rule, it is good to anticipate potential roadblocks and work to overcome them in advance. If you can eliminate potential points of contention, you can help prevent people from making decisions based on assumption or personal bias.

These are just my thoughts on situations like these. It sounds to me like you got arbitrarily hosed here. I would certainly appeal this decision, or resubmit the request with additional information included. If you possess the required skills and knowledge it shouldn't matter what date is stamped on your qualifications.

[Devil Doc]

So the question is....... What made you guys that left, retired ETC. Come back?

[Private Investigator]

So the question is....... What made you guys that left, retired ETC. Come back?

You will not believe some of the stories. Usually disagreement on who was selected for Unit Commander or who was overlooked for a award.

Sometimes a job will relocate you to a place where CAP does not exist. So why maintain a membership when you are doing a few years on the North Pole? Then you get relocated again a few years later and decide to get back into it.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

So in my book if I reinstated you to Captain on 4-1-2009 you will be up for Major on 4-1-2012, 'with' your Unit Commanders approval.

That's the way I viewed it, too.

I can see how someone with an extended absence might be rusty on some of the information they once had. If I were the unit commander involved, I would have the member rejoining brush up on the relevant material, and engage in some conversations as related to PD courses, and specialty ratings. Perhaps some summary conversations with others in a specialty track, or a mini SLS type activity for unit review. All of this BEFORE submitting a request for reinstatement of grade.

Reasonable enough.  I would not have minded such a review when I rejoined almost four years ago.  All I got was the standard Level I/CPPT/OPSEC, all of which I could almost do in my sleep.

With regard to awards and decorations previously earned... if there is proof of award available I don't see why they can't be worn.

Almost all in E-Services, and what isn't (from before such technological days) I had paper documentation of, including my very first membership application from 1993.

Likewise with a request for promotion, I would work to demonstrate the member's proficiency in the required areas. If one is seeking promotion to Maj based on "outdated" level III PD courses, or specialty track ratings, this would be helpful. It is also important to remember that these represent the minimum qualifications for the promotion. If this request is coming shortly after a member rejoins from an extended absence, there might be some questions at the Wing level. Although if you rejoined as Capt. in 2009, you should have TIG covered. Including information on what the member is doing for the unit, or plans to do in the future can help overcome this resistance.

I had TIG, Level III completed, etc., but as some on CT know, I have some health issues that keep me from being as "active" as others.  It is an extremely active Squadron/Group; many of my colleagues have a "work/CAP/everything else" hierarchy.

As a general rule, it is good to anticipate potential roadblocks and work to overcome them in advance. If you can eliminate potential points of contention, you can help prevent people from making decisions based on assumption or personal bias.

I tried to do that as well.  If "personal bias" is involved, there's precious little I can do about that.  If someone's got a downer on you, they've got a downer on you, and I'm not going to get on my knees and beg to try and overcome that.

I know one thing: I am never going to initiate a request for promotion again.  Doing so on my own behalf this time was completely out-of-the-box for me, and to have it refused...they could have included a jar of Vaseline, anyway.  I doubt I will ever see another promotion/ribbon, but at least I only have a couple of years left before I can apply for "retirement."  Hopefully I won't be denied that.

These are just my thoughts on situations like these. It sounds to me like you got arbitrarily hosed here. I would certainly appeal this decision, or resubmit the request with additional information included. If you possess the required skills and knowledge it shouldn't matter what date is stamped on your qualifications.

I have enough experience in CAP politics to make me very, very wary of doing that.  I have appealed to higher authority before (admittedly in another wing) and almost found myself staring down a 2B.

So the question is....... What made you guys that left, retired ETC. Come back?

With me?  Politics, GOBN and the inability to brown-nose for leaving.  Coming back?  It's just been part of my life for so long, and I would run into someone in CAP who would say "rejoin, we really need someone with your experience!"  Funny, that...and more fool me for falling for it, I suppose.

[lordmonar]

On the subject or re-doing all your training due to a break in service.......I don't know if it really helps or not.

On the one hand it makes sense because you have to break off the rust.  On the other hand......if it is a road block to getting old members back into CAP (I'd rejoin but I don't want to start as an SM again) then maybe we should not push it too hard.

Just look at who we give advanced promotions to in the first place.

Add to that the fact that even with out a break in service.......specialty rateings don't expire.....that is get a masters in CAP in your first three years in CAP......and then you switch over to some other area......that master rateing is still good for level IV and Lt Col even if you have not done CP for 3-4 years.

A lot of this ties into the arguments we have over promotions and grade in CAP anyways.