Community service ribbon: ACTUAL qualifications and proof?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

CSRs are the kind or peripheral nonsense people thumb through when they are not fully engaged in actual CAP-centric activities,
or see other people with fuller racks and are trying to add whatever they can.  Members with a chest-load of SAR, Encampment, Find,
PD, and Commendation ribbons don't generally care too much about CSRs, if for no other reason then their free time is fully accounted for
with meaningful CAP activities.

Or when such a member like me, for whatever reasons (health concerns in my case) is generally precluded from taking part in such high-profile "meaningful" CAP activities and who feel like they're running in place/warming a chair in CAP, whose CAP work is very largely behind the scenes.

I do take offence at you calling CSR's "peripheral nonsense."

[Walkman]

CSRs are the kind or peripheral nonsense people thumb through when they are not fully engaged in actual CAP-centric activities,
or see other people with fuller racks and are trying to add whatever they can.  Members with a chest-load of SAR, Encampment, Find, PD, and Commendation ribbons don't generally care too much about CSRs, if for no other reason then their free time is fully accounted for with meaningful CAP activities.

Really? I guess my 3 squadron duties (ESO, CDI & RRO) plus group staff means that I'm not full engaged in "meaningful CAP activities". I've busted my tail in both CAP and the BSA, it is nice once in a while to get a "good job!"

Sometimes the way you come across as if you're completely infallible in all things CAP, that you are never wrong and anyone that disagrees is just an idiot. You are not perfect, are not always correct and sometimes people's interpretations of the more gray things in regs are just as valid as yours. I'll admit that you do know the regs well and many times I agree with you, but sometimes you just need to back off the throttle a little.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I guess my jobs as Administrative Officer, Deputy Safety Officer and Deputy AE Officer don't really rate as "meaningful," either.

[Eclipse]

CSRs are the kind or peripheral nonsense people thumb through when they are not fully engaged in actual CAP-centric activities,
or see other people with fuller racks and are trying to add whatever they can.  Members with a chest-load of SAR, Encampment, Find, PD, and Commendation ribbons don't generally care too much about CSRs, if for no other reason then their free time is fully accounted for with meaningful CAP activities.

Really? I guess my 3 squadron duties (ESO, CDI & RRO) plus group staff means that I'm not full engaged in "meaningful CAP activities". I've busted my tail in both CAP and the BSA, it is nice once in a while to get a "good job!"

Do you feel that either organization is not properly acknowledging your respective service?  Then address it with the right organization, but don't look for
fulfillment from one in regards to another, or to make up for the failure of one to recognize you. A CSR for time spent with the BSA has nothing do to with your CAP service, nor is it related to your, I'm sure, excellent work in the respective areas you indicate.

A CSR should not be considered a consolation prize for other decorations not properly awarded.  That, in itself, cheapens the award for everyone else.

sometimes people's interpretations of the more gray things in regs are just as valid as yours.

Of course they are.  Other commanders are free to make the choices they are comfortable with.

I guess my jobs as Administrative Officer, Deputy Safety Officer and Deputy AE Officer don't really rate as "meaningful," either.

I honestly don't understand your point.  What does a CSR have to do with CAP service?

[Private Investigator]

For my ribbon, I volunteered at my local church doing landscaping and all that jazz. When me and the pastor calculated my total, I had at least 60 hours. So he wrote a letter stating I had completed 60 hours of volunteer service doing (x), then signed it.

Excellent, congratulations on your award.   :clap:

[Walkman]

The CSR is a direct reflection of our core value of Volunteer Service. The ribbon says "we value those who spend their time working to better their community and think it's important to recognize them". It's a way of showing those who truly exemplify that trait by not only serving in CAP, but doing good in other areas as well. In our current culture, the number of people spending their time trying to make things better instead of vegging out in front of the tube or online is getting less and less, even the very idea seems to be fading.

NHQ has decided that this is worth a small piece of fabric that can be worn on a uniform. Why dig into people for wearing it? Its not my most important or meaningful ribbon, and neither the first award nor the clasps were given in any ceremony or formation, but I earned it, my CC approved it and NHQ originally authorized its wear. 'Nuff said.

[lordmonar]

The world according to Eclipse.....forget that the CSR has been around forever.....that it is there to encourage outside community service.  Since it does not impact Eclipse world....he does not care about it.....and any CAP member who does is defective in some way.

So he makes it harder to earn it then it needs to be.....because he feels that those who get awards are only compensating for not having a big rack.

I don't think my "experince" in your squadron would be all that great.

[Eclipse]

The world according to Eclipse.....forget that the CSR has been around forever.....that it is there to encourage outside community service.  Since it does not impact Eclipse world....he does not care about it.....and any CAP member who does is defective in some way.

So he makes it harder to earn it then it needs to be.....because he feels that those who get awards are only compensating for not having a big rack.

I don't think my "experince" in your squadron would be all that great.

OK, seriously - did you queue evil music when you typed that?

That entire paragraph is a complete mischaracterization of my part of this discussion.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I guess my jobs as Administrative Officer, Deputy Safety Officer and Deputy AE Officer don't really rate as "meaningful," either.

I honestly don't understand your point.  What does a CSR have to do with CAP service?

Sir, my point is that under the heading of "meaningful" duty meriting ribbons, you listed "in-the-field/in-the-air/ES" activities...an attitude unfortunately endemic throughout much of CAP.

At one point in my life I was able to do such things fairly easily...I qualified as Scanner, then Observer, manned base comms, etc.  That was 20 years ago.  I was also named as the AFA's CAP Senior Member of the Year for the area in which I lived at the time and was fêted at a dinner put on by AFA.

The chances are quite unlikely now for me to earn any kind of Find, Air SAR, Counterdrug, DR, or similar award.  Nor will I be in line for promotion for at least another year, perhaps more.  I am not vain enough to think that what I do merits any kind of Exceptional Service or certainly not Silver/Bronze Medal of Valour.

Therefore, the only awards realistically available to me are the PD awards (the highest one I currently have is the Loening), clasps to my Red Service Ribbon and maybe, if I get lucky, an Achievement Award...or, perhaps, a CSR.

[Eclipse]

The SAR and Find ribbons are also available to members who serve in base staff and support roles, beyond that, you have a point
that there are more ribbons potentially available to members who serve in a lot of missions, but there are certainly things
open to you that would also garner decorations - encampments, NCSAs, recruiting to name several.

Regardless, the above, fair or otherwise, doesn't change the fact that the CSR isn't in anyway connected to being appreciated
for CAP service, and shouldn't be considered as some sort of rack-filler, that kinda makes my point about why many people
put in for it.

I understand that you're personally stuck in a circumstance loop that is hard to get out of, and if I were in your situation I
don't even know if I'd be continuing my membership, but difficulty at the micro level shouldn't inform the plan at the macro level.
Besides, I'm not the one who has to sign it anyway, so my opinion is anecdotal interesting at best.

My baseline point in this is that, as a commander, my first and foremost job is encouraging people to meaningful >CAP< service.
I have no interest or mandate in fostering other organizations, especially ones that may compete for member time and resources.

[lordmonar]

The SAR and Find ribbons are also available to members who serve in base staff and support roles, beyond that, you have a point
that there are more ribbons potentially available to members who serve in a lot of missions, but there are certainly things
open to you that would also garner decorations - encampments, NCSAs, recruiting to name several.

Regardless, the above, fair or otherwise, doesn't change the fact that the CSR isn't in anyway connected to being appreciated
for CAP service, and shouldn't be considered as some sort of rack-filler, that kinda makes my point about why many people
put in for it.

Accept you miss the CAP goal that we do service MORE then just to CAP programs.   Many people put in for it....because they have earned....just like the recruiting ribbon, find ribbon, SAR ribbon, and all the rest.

It is not a discrtionary decoration.......Meet the standard.....get the ribbon.   END OF STORY.  You are changeing the standard as published because you don't understand CAP's goal of increasing community service by CAP members.   ERGO you are are working agains the aims and goals of the organisation.

My baseline point in this is that, as a commander, my first and foremost job is encouraging people to meaningful >CAP< service.
I have no interest or mandate in fostering other organizations, especially ones that may compete for member time and resources.

So since YOU don't see the need of it......you make it harder for your people to earn it.    This is counter productive to your stated job.....because if you piss off someone with YOUR additonal requirems and YOUR additional expectations.......you run the risk of loosing those who bling is the warm fuzzy they are looking for.   Because you are too busy to fill out a CAPF2 and if you explain yourself the way that you did here.......you will lose anyone who likes ribbons....because your attitidute toward bling hunters shows your contempt for them.

We have these "give away" ribbons because we want our members to do the things that they represent.     Recruit 2 members.....here is your ribbon.  Not because we want to recognise someone who goes out and recruits....but because we want recruits.   We reward people for doing what we want.....that is called positive reinforcement.  We want people to do DR training....we make a ribbon.  We want people to be GT qualified we make a badge, we want people to do community service we make a ribbon.

I have stated before....and will restate it agian.....I don't care why you do something.....but that you do it.

If the only reason you recruit someone is to get a ribbon.........don't care...recruit your two members...here's your ribbon.
If the only reason you volunteer at the church/school/food line/homless shelter/animal shelter is to get a ribbon......don't care...do your 60 hours...here's your ribbon.
If the only reason you volunteer with CAP is to get brownie points with your boss, get EPR bullets, score salutes from cadets........don't care....you do your two years....here is your red service ribbon.

It works both ways.

By changeing the standards.....you disrupt the decorations process and you are abusing the tools we use to run this program.....which is counter productive to your job as a commander and a leader.

[Eclipse]

You know what?  I'm willing to concede the point. 

I re-read the verbiage, and the requirements are so vague as to allow for literally anything not done in a CAP uniform, so like many
things in CAP, there's no reason to belabor it.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The SAR and Find ribbons are also available to members who serve in base staff and support roles, beyond that, you have a point
that there are more ribbons potentially available to members who serve in a lot of missions, but there are certainly things
open to you that would also garner decorations - encampments, NCSAs, recruiting to name several.

I have considered those.  However, at base staff/support, my time would be limited; for one thing, I don't want to bring a medicine chest full of my prescriptions with, especially given that some of them cause me to be sleepy (on purpose; insomnia is something I've battled nearly my whole life) and that could endanger the mission.

Regardless, the above, fair or otherwise, doesn't change the fact that the CSR isn't in anyway connected to being appreciated
for CAP service, and shouldn't be considered as some sort of rack-filler, that kinda makes my point about why many people
put in for it.

The military has all sorts of those rack-fillers.  I don't know what they're called now, but back in my day they were called "gimme's" or "fog-a-mirror" ribbons - meaning, if you could show up, fog a mirror with your breath, and get an officer to sign off on it, you got one.  There are loads of those at the State level for Guard members.  There are also the Unit Citations (in both CAP and the military), whereas you could be the biggest screw-up to ever wear a uniform, but if you were a member of the unit at the time of the award, instant chest candy.

I understand that you're personally stuck in a circumstance loop that is hard to get out of, and if I were in your situation I
don't even know if I'd be continuing my membership, but difficulty at the micro level shouldn't inform the plan at the macro level.

The thought of "should I continue?" has been going round in my head for quite some time.  More and more I think that I am just dead weight to an organisation that already has enough of that, and I should make space for those who can make contributions besides making sure paperwork is in order.

I have thought about investigating the NSCC, and/or a return to the CGAUX, but what use would the NSCC have for a 48-year-old Ensign?  Although I've thought if I just continue to do what I do until I can "retire" from CAP, I might be viewed as more of an asset to one of those other groups than just someone who bugged out of CAP because of inertia...

[Duke Dillio]

Keep drivin on Cyborg...  While others may not say it, I appreciate the guys/gals who take care of the paperwork...  It's the one thing that noone ever wants to do...  Keep up the good work!  You are a very important part of this organization!   :clap:

As to the ribbons, who really cares?  It is this mindset that casts foulness into the organization.  If someone wants to troll for ribbons, why should you care?  If they earned it and they provide the proof, just sign the form and move on.  We all know there are people out there who want chest candy.  If they are doing their job, let them have it.  If their membership becomes an issue, then start your paperwork trail and 2B them out.  I am getting really irritated with people who think that awarding a ribbon "cheapens" it.  In my 20 years with this organization, I have only considered one person to have really "cheapened" any award and that was when HWSNBN gave himself and some others a SMV for watching a traffic accident.  When I went through UCC, they told us (the students) that the awards committee was getting bored and that we should praise our people by recommending awards for them.  Unfortunately, we have a "Keeper of the Key" on the committee who blocks everything unless you commit an act of bravery that would get you the MoH, and then you might still get disapproved for an Achievement Award.  The "keepers of the key" who won't process awards for the "cheapening" need to find a new mall to cop.  I can't even get COMCOM's for people who really deserve them because of our "keeper of the key".  There was another one in CA who wouldn't process an award unless he had one (he's gone now I think).

The point of the matter is that you can't "cheapen" a CAP award.  Noone outside of CAP really knows what they are for.  Noone outside of CAP really cares.  As a commander, you check the reg to make sure they are qualified for it, make sure the paperwork is in order, and then sign your name in the box.  You don't need to go to the activity they claimed to be supporting asking a bunch of questions (seen it...), you don't need to ask for three reference letters (seen that too...), and you don't need to request an official police report if they claim to save a life when the person writes a letter saying as such (seen that too....).  This attitude is absolutely mind-boggling and I expect a good portion of the reason that we have retention issues has to do with this particular mindset.  You want to keep people around, give them praise when praise is due.  If you cannot praise someone for their hard work, you don't belong in a command position.

[Private Investigator]

As to the ribbons, who really cares? 

I am getting really irritated with people who think that awarding a ribbon "cheapens" it.  In my 20 years with this organization, I have only considered one person to have really "cheapened" any award and that was when HWSNBN gave himself and some others a SMV for watching a traffic accident. 


The point of the matter is that you can't "cheapen" a CAP award.  ... If you cannot praise someone for their hard work, you don't belong in a command position.

Good points indeed. HWSNBN most likely gave himself a few others he did not deserve either. If you could pencil whip yourself a ComCom why not a SMV?

Hopefully the person in Command has some ideal about awards. i.e., a C/SSgt gets a ribbon for their promotion but you give every Cadet in your Squadron a Achievement Award for making a milestone that they get a ribbon for anyway? How about Achievement Awards for Senior Members who completed two years of service? I am thinking they get the Red Service Ribbon already but whatever.

Every Unit is very different. Some Units give everyone a ComCom and others have not given one out in years.

[Duke Dillio]

Every service (except for the Marines) does it.  PCS from one station to the next in the Army and you'll get something.  Graduate from Basic Training, put a ribbon on.  Do your job in the Army for three years without getting into trouble, put another ribbon on.  It is only a big deal to those who make it a big deal.  If a unit commander decides to give a COMCOM to a cadet who just earned his Mitchell, is it really that wrong?  Is it wrong for people to troll for uniform bling?  That's up to you.  In the end, it really doesn't matter a whole lot.  It's an opinion issue that some force on others.  What is in the best interest of the organization is to keep your volunteers happy and working hard.  I'm not saying that we should give a SMV to everyone.  I'm saying that while discretion should be used, noone should be putting up a wall to stop others from being praised.  We can't give our volunteers money.  We can't keep promoting them beyond a certain point.  So what's the issue with giving them a 65 cent ribbon?

[Walkman]

Hopefully the person in Command has some ideal about awards. i.e., a C/SSgt gets a ribbon for their promotion but you give every Cadet in your Squadron a Achievement Award for making a milestone that they get a ribbon for anyway? How about Achievement Awards for Senior Members who completed two years of service? I am thinking they get the Red Service Ribbon already but whatever.

Every Unit is very different. Some Units give everyone a ComCom and others have not given one out in years.

(At the risk of thread drift...)

Our Wing CC has a policy that if someone is nominated for an OTY award, but does not receive it, they qualify for an Achievement Award. The reasoning is that if they are doing enough to be nominated, they are going above & beyond.

[Walkman]

I'm saying that while discretion should be used, noone should be putting up a wall to stop others from being praised.

THIS!

[Майор Хаткевич]

FYI ribbons are $1 now.

[mwewing]

Awards are the way we celebrate our members who embody the values of our organization. Ribbons are a visual display of one's activities and accomplishments within the organization. As has been noted, this is not unique to CAP. The military, police agencies, and all manner of other organizations use ribbons and other awards and decorations to signal the same. I think it is important to reward people for exceeding expectations, and living our core values. It encourages continued success, and similar accomplishment in others.

On the topic of "cheapening" an award, it is certainly possible and should be guarded against. I am sure we can all find examples of this without much effort. This is exactly why awards committees exist, to ensure that award recommendations meet the specified requirements. Simply awarding these ribbons in accordance with regulations doesn't cheapen them, it means that many members are operating at or above expected levels - which is good for the organization. It is good for the organization even if that member's sole motivation is a desire for chest candy. Accomplishment is accomplishment regardless of motivation. If you think the award criteria is too loose, or the award itself does not add to the desired outcomes of the organization, there are channels to recommend changes in regulation to realign based on those priorities.

With specific regard to the CSR, many members have pointed out our core value of Volunteer Service. Given this, we rightfully desire our members involve themselves in their communities beyond CAP. This is mutually beneficial to CAP, the other organization, the community, and the member. As such, CAP has decided that (as a desired outcome) if a member serves 60 hours of service outside our activities, they are eligible for the CSR. There are few restrictions on what type of service counts, again accomplishment is accomplishment regardless of motivation. If cadet A delivers groceries to the elderly only because mom makes him, he is still delivering groceries to the elderly. Sure, it would be better if cadet A branched out and went beyond the requirements, but we can't get into his head and police his motivation. As an aside, I would think that court-ordered community service wouldn't be eligible for consideration since there is no element of volunteerism in complying with a court ordered punishment. I am not sure if the regs agree with me on that, but thankfully, I doubt many members would want attention called to their misconduct by putting in for such award.

If you feel that the CSR does not encourage members to live by our core value of volunteer service, or if you feel that 60 hours is not an acceptable benchmark, there are channels through which change can be suggested. Placing arbitrary additional requirements on any award only disenfranchises members under a particular command from being recognized fairly for their contributions to our organization.