Changing Senior Member Grade Insignias?

[Майор Хаткевич]

CSU was to be forever knows as the TPU - the McPeak uniform of CAP uniforms. It was even modified after HWSRN was gone!

[Angus]

IMHO the CSU was in theory a good uniform but bad contructed and implimented.  If it had gone to the AF for review we might still have it albeit with a few allterations.

It was reviewed by the AF.

They told CAP to make some changes to it, like removing hard rank from the flight cap and using "CAP" instead of "U.S." on the lapels.

Other than that, they publicly voiced no objections.

It was CAP, not the AF, who killed the CSU, for reasons unknown.  I have hypotheses, but I won't post them here because I have before.

I stand corrected.  For some reason I thought the AF pulled the trigger on that because it looked too close the actual AF uniform even after those changes.

[SarDragon]

I do not see a need for distinctive grade insignia for CAP officers as the grade insignia for officers in the armed forces are not distinctive from one another to any major degree.   If a Captain in the Air Force can wear the same insignia as a Captain in the Army or Marines or a Lieutenant in the Navy or CG, why would CAP be any different?  Heck, Captains in police departments wear the same type captain bars. 

While I would personally prefer to wear a CAP distinctive uniform rather than an AF uniform, I do not see a need to make grade insignia distinctive.  There is no logic to it.

Actually, while the basic appearance of USN/USMC rank matches USAF and USA rank, they atre different enough that they are not interchangeable for wear. "Railroad tracks hane the biggest difference, in the location of the connecting bars. Also O-1 thru O-3 bars have a different shape. USAF/USA bars are beveled. The USN/USMC bars are not.

USAF/USA/CAP



USN/USMC

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

USCG also uses the USN/USMC style.

As well, the insignia for Lieutenant Commander/USMC Major and Commander/USMC Lieutenant Colonel are more "botanically correct" than the Army/AF Major/Lieutenant Colonel insignia.

[Critical AOA]

I never stated they were interchangeable for wear.  I stated that they are not distinctive from one another to any major degree.  For purposes of rank recognition / identification, they are more or less indistinguishable without close scrutiny.  My point being was that since all of the services officer rank insignia are so close to one another in appearance that ours being the same or very similar was no big deal.  If the Army & Navy officers don't mind that their ranks are similar to one another, we in CAP should have no objection that ours are the same as the AF and the other services, police departments, etc.

I guess my basic philosophy is that easily recognizable or identifiable rank insignia makes sense to me and I consider it to be desirable because of the fact that it is recognizable so on this I disagree with the need for differentiation that the OP advocates.  However, I tend to agree with the need for a distinctive uniform that the OP and others advocate. 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Change for the sake of change without consideration of history heritage and tradition, as well as ease of use and recognizeability should be discouraged.

Not to mention the issues that would arise while working with law enforcement and military...

Who do I need to talk to?! The guy with balls or the guy with diamonds???
Well it's the guy with diamonds, they are more valuable... But gold is more valuable than silver... So with that thinking, I should be talking to a 2d LT over a 1st LT, and a major over an LTCol. .. your logic is flawed there.

Everyone would have to learn our structure if they Were to work with us... If CAP is leading a search operation, they have to answer to us, and if they have to learn a new structure to be able to work efficiently, cooperation would travel down hill, and it wouldn't be a stone rolling, because it will gather a lot of fecal matter. 

Let's have one good reason, and I mean GOOD reason RM, because I can't think of one half decent one.

Not to mention if it's red...

Hey who do I need to talk to about this issue?

Oh, you need to talk to that commie over there with the red diamonds...

[SarDragon]

FWIW, RM is gone. Outta here. History.

You're talking to the wall, for real now.

[Fubar]

Who do I need to talk to?! The guy with balls or the guy with diamonds???
Well it's the guy with diamonds, they are more valuable... But gold is more valuable than silver... So with that thinking, I should be talking to a 2d LT over a 1st LT, and a major over an LTCol. .. your logic is flawed there.

Since rank has absolutely nothing to do with operational hierarchy, changing our rank insignia likely lessen confusion, especially with public safety agencies and the military who understand rank insignia and relate rank with the chain of command.

That said, I haven't seen any issues of confusion with outside agencies that were severe enough to necessitate this kind of uniform change.

[vento]

The more reason to work under the ICS structure when playing with other agencies. Some FD or PD insignias are even more confusing than the cookies and diamonds.

[PHall]

The more reason to work under the ICS structure when playing with other agencies. Some FD or PD insignias are even more confusing than the cookies and diamonds.

I thought we were required to use ICS when we work with other agencies already.

[NCRblues]

FWIW, RM is gone. Outta here. History.

You're talking to the wall, for real now.

wait...what happened to RM?

[bosshawk]

If I read the tea leaves correctly, he got banned.

[a2capt]

[SarDragon]

That's funny! Nice 'Shop job!  :clap:

[Slim]

  I heard about the bad actions of a few.  Michigan Wing had encampment at Camp Grayling one year and 2 CAP officers picked out an Army Private and were trying to make him salute them.  Unfortunetly, the privates commander got involved and told them and several other people that his people did not have to salute CAP members.  The private then saluted them each time they walked by with the good old one finger salute.

I'm going to go ahead and throw the BS flag on that one.  With the exception of three years (1991, 1992, and 1993), Michigan Wing has held their encampment at Phelps Collins ANGB in Alpena, MI, now known as Alpena CRTC, since 1972.  Prior to that, I've been told that encampments were held at Fort Knox, and Selfridge AFB prior to it's closure.

The one year we did hold encampment at Camp Grayling (1993), I certainly don't remember such an incident.  In fact, most of the week we were there, the only Army Guard unit training on post was an air cav squadron from Ohio, and they spent a good chunk of the week in the field.  The only people we dealt with were the squadron/battalion staff (which is the least likely place to find a private), and some of the pilots (to arrange Huey flights for the encampment) and again, not a private in sight.  In fact, in the limited dealings we had with the guard unit, I seem to remember all of our interactions being very polite, respectful and cordial.

For what it's worth, we also didn't have this problem in 1991 at Wright-Patt, or 1992 at Wurtsmith AFB.  In fact, in attending 27 encampments in Michigan wing-including the three mentioned, I can't recall any time where any of our seniors went a little off their rocker and tried to pull something like that. 

From what you describe, I can pretty much figure out which "Small airbase" your unit met on, the SAC base involved (I recall the scrutiny we had trying to drive on base to visit clothing sales, I can only imagine the reception that an unexpected airplane would have gotten), and I've got a pretty good idea who the ANG E-7 is that you're referring to.

[wuzafuzz]

Who do I need to talk to?! The guy with balls or the guy with diamonds???
Well it's the guy with diamonds, they are more valuable... But gold is more valuable than silver... So with that thinking, I should be talking to a 2d LT over a 1st LT, and a major over an LTCol. .. your logic is flawed there.

Since rank has absolutely nothing to do with operational hierarchy, changing our rank insignia likely lessen confusion, especially with public safety agencies and the military who understand rank insignia and relate rank with the chain of command.

That said, I haven't seen any issues of confusion with outside agencies that were severe enough to necessitate this kind of uniform change.

In a multi-agency evironment rank or grade insignia should be relatively unimportant.  Differing grade structures with varying degrees of importance, different uniform s and insignia, and different disciplines all conspire to create confusion.  Thats one of the things ICS addresses.  Talk to people based on their assignment.  Need Air Ops?  Find the guy or gal at the Air Ops desk, or who is wearing the vest that says Air Ops on it.  Comm? Look for the person with CUL or COML written all over them.

I realize vests arent always used, but they are an easy way to help avoid confusion when multiple agencies are involved.  Of course it also helps to be introduced at briefings: "Hi I'm Joe Cool and I'm the comm unit leader."

Ultimately the people with the most bling may not even be assigned jobs within an incident.  They might be the brass showing up to see what their people are doing.  Merely showing up doesn't make a fire chief the IC.  It makes him or her a visitor.

Our CAP grade shouldn't be a problem for anyone.  CAP members understand it and it is irrelevant outside CAP.  In the rare case someone talks to the CAP person with the most bling, it's EASY to redirect them.

[Garibaldi]

Who do I need to talk to?! The guy with balls or the guy with diamonds???

Um...

[capmaj]

We now have 6 pages on a comment that didn't even deserve one response.

[wuzafuzz]

We now have 6 pages on a comment that didn't even deserve one response.

The original comment was pretty much useless, but some of the later comments deserved replies.

[Angus]

We now have 6 pages on a comment that didn't even deserve one response.

The original comment was pretty much useless, but some of the later comments deserved replies.

I would agree plus we also got a good laugh on it.