Petition to NHQ

[Devil Doc]

I am starting an petition to change the regs for Military Badges and Awards, those that have earned them should be able to wear them.  This includes all CAP, and AF uniforms.




Also, I want an Petition on the whole H/W Issue. If your motivated but do to an Physical condition or and Disability that you cannot keep the weight off, there should be an waiver.



Im new at this so any help much appreciated.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

DD, all I can say is "good luck."

NHQ proved with the Corporate Service Uniform flap that they really aren't concerned with what we think or not, especially WRT uniforms.

PM inbound.

[RADIOMAN015]

Actually it is the Air Force Regulation which prohibits the wear of award/ribbons and badges on other than military uniforms utilized on a regular basis.   Other military services also have restrictions, with the Army being the more liberal.

BTW this limitation also affects the VFW & American Legion wear of AF related awards/ribbons/badges on their organizational specific uniforms.

I think the BEST approach is for the Secretary of Defense, via a policy/regulation to authorize all the services to allow active, former, & retired military members to wear appropriate awards/ribbons/badges on "appropriate" organizational uniforms approved by the Secretary of Defense.

I think this change in policy would than basically allow CAP to authorize the wear of military ribbons etc on the white/grey uniform combination and possibly even on the CAP blazer.       

Unless this happens, CAP is bound by its' agreement with the AF to comply with any restrictions on uniforms imposed by them.

RM
   

[Devil Doc]

Yes, but if the DAV, VFW, Patriot Guard etc can display theres, then why cant CAP?

[Майор Хаткевич]

Yes, but if the DAV, VFW, Patriot Guard etc can display theres, then why cant CAP?

Who said they "can"?. They do, but they don't necessarily do it right.

[Ned]

I think a few reminders might be in order.

When we use the term "NHQ" in a sentence like "NHQ won't let us wear X or Y on our uniforms!", we need to make sure we know to whom we are referring.  First, there is no one working at CAP NHQ in Alabama that makes policy about uniforms.  The workers at NHQ are our paid corporate staff.  These folks work a lot of hours and do critical work for the membership and our stakeholders, but not a single one of them has any say in our uniform policies.  And truth be told, not many of them really pay much attention to what we are wearing in the field.  They are too busy supporting us.

CAP uniform regulations are drafted, approved, and implemented by our volunteer leadership.  Part-timers like you and me, and as far as I know, every single one of them started out working long hours at a squadron.  Again, just like you and me.

Our AF colleagues control the wear of our AF style uniforms, and they take this responsibility seriously.  If and when we make requests to change our AF style uniforms, we staff the requests through our partners at CAP-USAF.  The AF has their own internal staff approval process on these requests, but generally has been very supportive of us in the past.

I know that some members feel very strongly about the H/W and grooming restrictions on the AF style uniforms.  Our AF partners understandably feel very strongly about it, too.  And their position is that we need to meet (roughly) the same standards to which they hold themselves in that regard.  It is not an unreasonable position, and one that we must respect even if we disagree.

They want us to look as professional as possible as we do the work of CAP.  And they have done some very positive things for us -- they have allowed the "US" insignia on our service dress, for example.  And supporting us as we begin the process of requesting a waiver for ABUs from the SECDEF.

The AF does not believe it is allowable for us to wear military badges or ribbons on our corporate uniforms.  Some of you here clearly disagree with them, and have some good examples to support your position.  But the point remains that after consulting with their legal types, they believe it to be improper and that does not seem likely to change in the near future.  It may be that if we could get their legal types and ours to sit down together and go over the relevant statutes and DoD regulations / policies that progress could be made, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Until then, we can continue to discuss it here on CT.   

And in the meantime, we have missions to fly, cadets to train, and folks to educate about things aerospace.

Ned Lee
Member, NUC

[Devil Doc]

That is a good point Ned, the point I was getting at is the standards needs revamped and looked at closer. We are the Only Auxillary that his this whole "AUX ON/AUX OFF" delimma. I mean I understand training, the is the whole point of being apart of CAP, and the cadets are important to. I am wondering were are the freedoms for the senior members? Ive only been apart of CAP for 3 months, and I can see there is not much for Seniors to do. The cadet program is great, the senior need some work. So if it is not NHQ or whoever, then we need to get together on CT and see what can be changed, it doesnt take that much to change policies, the military does it constantly. I feel sympathetic for seniors, it is like we get punished for being "Fuzzy/Plump" many of us cannot help that. So somewhere somehow there is an way to change it. If CT is an great place for it, then so be it.

[coudano]

My (likely unpopular) opinion is that military ribbons and badges should not be worn on any cap uniform at all (including military style).  One is not the other, what you do in one for the most part has little to no application in the other.  You wouldn't demand to wear your military stuff on your BSA uniform at your kid's scout pack, either (well there are some people who would...).  Compartmentalize a little...  Keep work at work, and CAP at CAP.  Even better, come to CAP and do some amazing things to earn some amazing decorations in THIS context, instead of just showing all the awesome you have done in some OTHER context which makes you look cool but hasn't done much for CAP here and now.

[Devil Doc]

Interesting Argument, a Valid one. So, instead of allowing Military Ribbons on the blue, but not the G/W, then i was saying it should be all or none.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

This is not a petition expecting them to see the names and think... Uhoh,  we better change this reg. more of an item to help them see how their veterans who have given of themselves feel so that they may reconsider their decision and make a change. I think we all agree, or we should agree that this regulation is only hurting the veterans, we feel like our awards don't belong to us if we cannot wear them when it's appropriate. They are the military property, we didn't earn them, the Air Force earned them. And that's not how it should be. If it Were, then our VA disability payments would go to them because we didn't get wounded or hurt, the Air Force did.


1St LT KILLION, Robert (CAP) 290067
2nd the petition

[Devil Doc]

I really didnt earn mine, I just didnt duck fast enough, lol.  Kidding

[a2capt]

... I am wondering were are the freedoms for the senior members? ... Ive only been apart of CAP for 3 months, ... and I can see there is not much for Seniors to do.

... It's too bad that the Foundations portion of Level I that covers this is 4 pages in a pamphlet style. That is where the petition should be aimed. 

1. Discuss the historic origins of CAP.
2. Identify and describe the three primary missions of CAP.
3. Outline CAP's basic organizational structure.
4. Explain why CAP considers squadrons to be the heart of the organization.
5. Describe the role of CAP-USAF.

All if that in four pages, with several large images. That should be 3-4 pages each.

The CAWG Group 7 people used to do a really nice job with Level I on a weekend style course, similar to how SLS/CLC are, and while it was a weekend worth, then mostly just a Saturday before fizzling and succumbing to the online experience.. maybe it was more than just Group 7, but at the time that was my exposure and I don't recall releases for a similar class from other areas on the Wing wide email list at the time. I could go back and look... I've still got email archives.

Because your statement of "three months" and what not is all pretty evident. Freedoms? Really? What freedoms are we missing?

If they got into the history and structure of the organization just a little more .. you might not need to go slinging petitions around as you would see what CAP isn't.

[Devil Doc]

Well when I mean freedoms, I mean choices compared to the cadet program. I am really good at history, and I knew the history of CAP months before I joined. I know CAP is limited because of resources or funding, but I see alot of our seniors refuse to come because there is nothing for them to do. Alot of our seniors wanted to fly, since our squadron does not have an plane, we loose half it not most of our seniors.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

And their position is that we need to meet (roughly) the same standards to which they hold themselves in that regard.

True enough - except that I have seen AD, ANG and AFRES members who do not meet AF standards, much less CAP, not to mention SDF troops wearing the (sometimes) modded AF uniform.

[abdsp51]

There is no h/w for the AF.  We have the ptest and basically you fail 4 times consecutively and you are out and there is a huge impact on your career.  They have gone from h/w to body mass index.  Most of the large folks you see are probably on a be well and FIP program. 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

the Army went away from HW standards as well... For the most part. They have HW, but they go on BMI more. I met HW standards by a long shot. I had to be taped for BMI, almost every time, because I was underweight. I also knew of a few in my unit that couldn't pass HW, to save their life! But, they Were not fat at all. They had like two percent body fat, but had so much muscle they Were very over weight. One was about 25lbs over. He was Massive, he did competitions a lot. But the Army also did, when I was in, the pass/fail Pt standard, if you failed two in a row you went to remedial Pt, and you had to pass the next test or they could give you the boot.

I think this is the same sort of thing they should do, in CAP, have a PT test, pass it and all good, fail it three times and wear corporates until you can.

[bflynn]

At this point, I'd settle for CAP service ribbons for the 5 major branches.  Blue and gold for the Navy, Bue and Red for the Corp, etc.  Something to recognize veteran status would be nice.

Or just let me wear my dolphins...then it's all good

[SarDragon]

[quoted in part]  Ive only been apart of CAP for 3 months, and I can see there is not much for Seniors to do.

There is a lot for Seniors to do. There are 21 CAPP 200-series pamphlets that detail the requirements for participation in the subject specialties. This is the primary purpose of senior membership - running the organization. This is really where the rubber meets the road. If these jobs aren't getting done within a unit, the unit collapses.

[spacecommand]

I am wondering were are the freedoms for the senior members? Ive only been apart of CAP for 3 months, and I can see there is not much for Seniors to do.

I disagree with that there are not much for Seniors to do. There are many things for Senior Members to do in and out of what is in the professional development program.  Without Senior Members you don't have CAP, even the Cadet Program operation requires Senior Members, the Cadets don't just go at it themselves.

[Devil Doc]

How bout them seniors that do not want an leadership position? Then there stuck, I find plently of stuff to do, I talking in perspective of a few conversations I have overheard.

[jimmydeanno]

A lot of times seniors that lack something to do have a leader who hasn't told them what they need to accomplish.  Many times they are just waiting for someone to tell them what to do, other times they don't have anything to do because they don't want something to do.  There is plenty to do, and if our seniors actual believe in the missions of our organization, they can see where there is always something that can be done to advance them in our communities. 

Even if you are the transportation officer, and you've already submitted the CAPF 73 for the month, there are still ways to be productive and move your unit forward.

[abdsp51]

Most SMs want to do just one thing and that's that.  When I decided to rejoin I told my unit I wated to just do CP, however I have taught basic skills for an ES class we had a few months ago.  I'll teach the skills but that's it for ES for me. 

[Devil Doc]

I am trying to give them ideas of what to do. I am an ES, DR, DHS and Medical Nut. We already have and ES officer and DR officer and an DHS officer. So I am doing Supply, seems fun enough?

[spacecommand]

Just because you have one ES or AE or CP officer does not mean they has to do the entire job by themselves.  You lack an airplane, but do you have a ground team?  Senior Members and Cadets are intricate to ground team operations and there's plenty of positions that don't require an airplane from mission radio operator strait up to incident commander that your SM's can train for.

On cadet side, leadership/character development/drug demand reduction/aerospace just to name some.  Additional squadron staff include, personnel, recruiting, public affairs, finance etc need folks too.    Many of these staff positions do not require them to be in a command role.

[abdsp51]

Just because you have one ES or AE or CP officer does not mean they has to do the entire job by themselves.  You lack an airplane, but do you have a ground team?  Senior Members and Cadets are intricate to ground team operations and there's plenty of positions that don't require an airplane from mission radio operator strait up to incident commander that your SM's can train for.

On cadet side, leadership/character development/drug demand reduction/aerospace just to name some.  Additional squadron staff include, personnel, recruiting, public affairs, finance etc need folks too.    Many of these staff positions do not require them to be in a command role.

Exactly there is something someone could do.  There is more I would like to do in my unit but my time in the area is growing short due to my upcoming PCS.

[SarDragon]

Most SMs want to do just one thing and that's that. When I decided to rejoin I told my unit I wated to just do CP, however I have taught basic skills for an ES class we had a few months ago.  I'll teach the skills but that's it for ES for me.

Then I don't want them in my unit, unless that one thing is part of a PD track. If all you want to do is fly the airplane, and not help out with a staff position, then you are hurting the unit more than helping it. The same goes for the MOs, MSs, etc.

In my unit, we try to get new members enrolled in a specialty track ASAP, and aggressively encourage them to get at least a Technician rating as soon as they can. Then they are assigned as at least as an assistant somewhere on the org chart, with an expectation that they actually learn something about the job, and help out.

[abdsp51]

One thing I have learned being in CP is it encompasses alot of admin work as well. Even now I am considering pursuing another specialty track.  But I desire to get as far as I can in CP as possible.

[jimmydeanno]

I think something is wrong here.  Am I still on CT?  It seems we have taken a uniform thread and turned it into a discussion about professional development.  I'm worried.

[Critical AOA]

I think something is wrong here.  Am I still on CT?  It seems we have taken a uniform thread and turned it into a discussion about professional development.  I'm worried.

Ha!  Just the opposite of what normally happens.  That is so funny.

[Devil Doc]

YA, my bad, I hijacked my own thread.

[BigShu]

the Army went away from HW standards as well... For the most part. They have HW, but they go on BMI more. I met HW standards by a long shot. I had to be taped for BMI, almost every time, because I was underweight. I also knew of a few in my unit that couldn't pass HW, to save their life! But, they Were not fat at all. They had like two percent body fat, but had so much muscle they Were very over weight. One was about 25lbs over. He was Massive, he did competitions a lot. But the Army also did, when I was in, the pass/fail Pt standard, if you failed two in a row you went to remedial Pt, and you had to pass the next test or they could give you the boot.

I think this is the same sort of thing they should do, in CAP, have a PT test, pass it and all good, fail it three times and wear corporates until you can.

I'd be all for that. I can meet all the published PT standards, and I'm built like a linebacker, but H/W or BMI have me overweight by quite a few pounds. I'm dilligently trying to get down, but a fitness based approach would be a lot easier to deal with. Don't get me started on the grooming standard. Stand closer to the razor for one thing, lose the ponytail for the other.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Shu, making tape is as easy as flexing your neck as hard as you can along with your shoulders. The wider your neck the better your BMI. It's an easy way around it, which is Why I am more for a PT test as well. It doesn't even have to be extremely strenuous, just show that you can still make an effort. Granted exceptions should be made for the handicapped that can't run or do pushups or sit ups. And those that are too old to perform a Pt test, should be given an exemption. It wouldn't be hard to implement either, we already have a Pt program and method for recording. All it would take is about a week of determining what the standards should be.

But you should have to shave and cut your hair to wear any uniform if you ask me.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I just thought of something...wouldn't a direct petition to NHQ be really jumping the chain?

That is, unless, you were to use the "Ask The Commander" feature on E-Services.

[SarDragon]

the Army went away from HW standards as well... For the most part. They have HW, but they go on BMI more. I met HW standards by a long shot. I had to be taped for BMI, almost every time, because I was underweight. I also knew of a few in my unit that couldn't pass HW, to save their life! But, they Were not fat at all. They had like two percent body fat, but had so much muscle they Were very over weight. One was about 25lbs over. He was Massive, he did competitions a lot. But the Army also did, when I was in, the pass/fail Pt standard, if you failed two in a row you went to remedial Pt, and you had to pass the next test or they could give you the boot.

I think this is the same sort of thing they should do, in CAP, have a PT test, pass it and all good, fail it three times and wear corporates until you can.

I'd be all for that. I can meet all the published PT standards, and I'm built like a linebacker, but H/W or BMI have me overweight by quite a few pounds. I'm dilligently trying to get down, but a fitness based approach would be a lot easier to deal with. Don't get me started on the grooming standard. Stand closer to the razor for one thing, lose the ponytail for the other.

I have spent my entire life having a Navy CPO of some sort or another influence the nature of my hair style and facial hair. The most recent (ATC M. Bowles, USN, Ret) has more liberal standards than any of the prior Chiefs, including PHC J. Bowles, USN, Ret.

These days I grow it as long as I want, and wear the appropriate CAP uniform for my current appearance.

As for PT testing, who sets the standards? What specific tests do you use? What's the max age? What happens when someone fails? As someone who was involved in the USN PFT for 20+ years, I can tell you that there is a significant administrative burden involved. Who is going to administer this new program? What if someone doesn't want to participate?

Today, our members pretty much self police their physical fitness (or lack thereof), and only participate in those activities that they are capable of. I don't see a really big need for SM PT testing.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

If they don't want to participate, then they wear the corporate uniform.

[SarDragon]

What about the rest of my Qs? I asked six; you answered one.

[PHall]

Dave, you're making sense, you know that's not allowed....

[SarDragon]

Stuff happens. 

[BigShu]

What about the rest of my Qs? I asked six; you answered one.

I don't think it would be any more of a burden than tracking a monthly safety qual. There's PT in the cadet program, yes? So there's already a mechanism and protocol for fitness testing. As far as the tests to use, how about pushups and situps and a timed run/jog. The last time I looked, the military fitness standards went out to a reasonable age. Let's say 65, same as FAA ATP mandatory retirement. We make an allowance already on the H/W chart, so do something similar to the mil standards, a little reduction to the required reps/time, to allow for our lack of true military bearing...
If someone fails, they retest within 30 days. Fail twice, wear corporate uniform until a passing test is achieved. I only counted 4 questions: Who sets the standard, the DoD (with modifier because we're weak wannabes), what tests, again, use the old standbys, pushups, situps, and some kind of cardio/endurance test, Max age, 65, same as PIC FAA limit, And failure leads to retest, second failure leads to corporate uni until fitness standard can be demonstrated. I guess your comment about it being burdensome to administer is a question too, so I say use the cadet protocol for testing, or come up with a new one.
We spend a lot of time worrying about trivia like "will we get ABU's" and almost zero time thinking about things that actually might have an effect on our missions and how we're seen by both the AF and the public. Showing that we care about our fitness and appearance is at least as important as whether or not polo shirts qualify as a uniform choice.

[EMT-83]

I don't think it would be any more of a burden than tracking a monthly safety qual...

Holy crap! Any clue what a PITA this really is?

Unless you're volunteering to come to my unit and personally run a PT program, count me out. I've already got enough administrivia to deal with.

[Stonewall]

Trust me, I love the military and am proud of my accomplishments and experiences.  I have some pretty neat badges and ribbons, but I've grown up through the years and learned that the bling is just that, bling.  Chunks of metal and ribbons made of fabric, often woven in China.  In fact, I got a medal once that still had the "made in China" label on the back.  Yes, it ended up in the Washington Post.

I've been in CAP 25 years and my LES for the military just switched to the 19 year mark.  I don't necessarily agree with Dan on the first page about NO MILITARY RIBBONS, even on the military uniforms in CAP, but I actually could care less about allowing them on any uniform, even the grey things.

When you can get past the ribbons and badges, you'll realize that leadership and volunteerism has nothing to do with the crap you can pin to your uniform.  But like I said, ONCE YOU CAN GET PAST IT.  As a young 20-something I loved wearing my jump wings and deployment ribbons, but I matured at some point and stopped wasting my time worrying about stuff like that.  Hopefully for you, Devil Doc, and manfredvonrichthofen, you'll soon be able to get past this phase and move on to bigger and better things, like leading and teaching.

Use your experiences in the Navy (or other branches) and your experiences in combat, even, to pass on VALUABLE lessons onto our young impressionable cadets.  I often think of a former cadet of mine who graduated PJOC at age 16 who is now a Special Forces Captain with multiple combat tours and sporting a medal with a "V" on it.  Just like when he graduated PJOC, and just like today, you'd never know where he's been or what he's done, unless you really knew him.  As a 16 year old cadet he led by example.  Sure, he wore his uniform properly, but unlike NBB or HMRS, there is no "bling" to show you've accomplished what I consider to be the most physically and mentally demanding NCSA.  Instead, he demonstrated his new found knowledge and experiences through his actions, not through his badges, patches, or ribbon rack.  In fact, as a cadet officer, he NEVER wore his ribbons, except for maybe 3 or 4 times he donned his service coat.

If I can learn something from a 16 year old cadet, so can we all.

[SarDragon]

I don't think it would be any more of a burden than tracking a monthly safety qual...

Holy crap! Any clue what a PITA this really is?

Unless you're volunteering to come to my unit and personally run a PT program, count me out. I've already got enough administrivia to deal with.

Safety reporting is a piece of cake, compared to running a PFT. Been there, done that. I participated in PFTs most of the time I was in the Navy, and doing the testing took the better part of a day, once a quarter.

Most senior squadrons do not have the facilities to be doing a periodic PFT, nor would the idea have any appeal in the first place. Most of the folks in my unit don't wear the AF-style, anyway.

CAP may benefit overall, but I don't see it happening.

[Private Investigator]

Trust me, I love the military and am proud of my accomplishments and experiences.  I have some pretty neat badges and ribbons, but I've grown up through the years and learned that the bling is just that, bling.  Chunks of metal and ribbons made of fabric, often woven in China.  In fact, I got a medal once that still had the "made in China" label on the back.  Yes, it ended up in the Washington Post.

I've been in CAP 25 years and my LES for the military just switched to the 19 year mark.  I don't necessarily agree with Dan on the first page about NO MILITARY RIBBONS, even on the military uniforms in CAP, but I actually could care less about allowing them on any uniform, even the grey things.

When you can get past the ribbons and badges, you'll realize that leadership and volunteerism has nothing to do with the crap you can pin to your uniform.  But like I said, ONCE YOU CAN GET PAST IT.  As a young 20-something I loved wearing my jump wings and deployment ribbons, but I matured at some point and stopped wasting my time worrying about stuff like that.  Hopefully for you, Devil Doc, and manfredvonrichthofen, you'll soon be able to get past this phase and move on to bigger and better things, like leading and teaching.

Use your experiences in the Navy (or other branches) and your experiences in combat, even, to pass on VALUABLE lessons onto our young impressionable cadets.  I often think of a former cadet of mine who graduated PJOC at age 16 who is now a Special Forces Captain with multiple combat tours and sporting a medal with a "V" on it.  Just like when he graduated PJOC, and just like today, you'd never know where he's been or what he's done, unless you really knew him.  As a 16 year old cadet he led by example.  Sure, he wore his uniform properly, but unlike NBB or HMRS, there is no "bling" to show you've accomplished what I consider to be the most physically and mentally demanding NCSA.  Instead, he demonstrated his new found knowledge and experiences through his actions, not through his badges, patches, or ribbon rack.  In fact, as a cadet officer, he NEVER wore his ribbons, except for maybe 3 or 4 times he donned his service coat.

If I can learn something from a 16 year old cadet, so can we all.

+1 thank you sir  :clap:

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I don't think it would be any more of a burden than tracking a monthly safety qual...

Holy crap! Any clue what a PITA this really is?

Unless you're volunteering to come to my unit and personally run a PT program, count me out. I've already got enough administrivia to deal with.

Safety reporting is a piece of cake, compared to running a PFT. Been there, done that. I participated in PFTs most of the time I was in the Navy, and doing the testing took the better part of a day, once a quarter.

Most senior squadrons do not have the facilities to be doing a periodic PFT, nor would the idea have any appeal in the first place. Most of the folks in my unit don't wear the AF-style, anyway.

CAP may benefit overall, but I don't see it happening.

PT exams are easy as snot, and don't take more than an hour and a half, if that. I do them for cadets, and it's easy. I I did them in the Army, piece of cake. If it's hard to do, then stop trying to reinvent the wheel.

[SarDragon]

I don't think it would be any more of a burden than tracking a monthly safety qual...

Holy crap! Any clue what a PITA this really is?

Unless you're volunteering to come to my unit and personally run a PT program, count me out. I've already got enough administrivia to deal with.

Safety reporting is a piece of cake, compared to running a PFT. Been there, done that. I participated in PFTs most of the time I was in the Navy, and doing the testing took the better part of a day, once a quarter.

Most senior squadrons do not have the facilities to be doing a periodic PFT, nor would the idea have any appeal in the first place. Most of the folks in my unit don't wear the AF-style, anyway.

CAP may benefit overall, but I don't see it happening.

PT exams are easy as snot, and don't take more than an hour and a half, if that. I do them for cadets, and it's easy. I I did them in the Army, piece of cake. If it's hard to do, then stop trying to reinvent the wheel.

I'm not trying to reinvent anything over and above the new procedures, relative to current ones, that this program would introduce.

That's an hour and a half that SMs will not have available to be doing their regular squadron functions, in addition to the added administrivia. PT is built into the cadet program. That is not the case for SM PD.

I haven't checked recently, but I'd guess that at 63, I'm close to the median age for my squadron. I looked at the Navy requirements for my age, and I'm confident that I could pass, but other folks in the unit might not.

I think this is a solution looking for a problem.

YMMV.

[Devil Doc]

I like to wear mine to show people this aint my first rodeo. i do understand that it may be unfair. i am only 26, so maybe it is mt young age. i. v
ery modest when it comes to my service, i dont go around gloating abour my time in the service

[Al Sayre]

I don't think it would be any more of a burden than tracking a monthly safety qual...

Holy crap! Any clue what a PITA this really is?

Unless you're volunteering to come to my unit and personally run a PT program, count me out. I've already got enough administrivia to deal with.

Safety reporting is a piece of cake, compared to running a PFT. Been there, done that. I participated in PFTs most of the time I was in the Navy, and doing the testing took the better part of a day, once a quarter.

Most senior squadrons do not have the facilities to be doing a periodic PFT, nor would the idea have any appeal in the first place. Most of the folks in my unit don't wear the AF-style, anyway.

CAP may benefit overall, but I don't see it happening.

PT exams are easy as snot, and don't take more than an hour and a half, if that. I do them for cadets, and it's easy. I I did them in the Army, piece of cake. If it's hard to do, then stop trying to reinvent the wheel.

I'm not trying to reinvent anything over and above the new procedures, relative to current ones, that this program would introduce.

That's an hour and a half that SMs will not have available to be doing their regular squadron functions, in addition to the added administrivia. PT is built into the cadet program. That is not the case for SM PD.

I haven't checked recently, but I'd guess that at 63, I'm close to the median age for my squadron. I looked at the Navy requirements for my age, and I'm confident that I could pass, but other folks in the unit might not.

I think this is a solution looking for a problem.

YMMV.

One other issue you're going to have with SM's is disabilities.  How are you going to track who is exempt from what?  Now that you collected the info on the disabilities to exempt them, how are you going to protect that info.  IIRC that would fall under HIPPA.  FAA and my Flight surgeon say I'm in good enough shape to fly, and the VA says I'm XX% disabled how are you going to reconcile those facts?

[Stonewall]

I like to wear mine to show people this aint my first rodeo. i do understand that it may be unfair. i am only 26, so maybe it is mt young age. i. very modest when it comes to my service, i dont go around gloating abour my time in the service

I understand your desire, as a 26 year old, to be accepted by the older senior members.  Likewise, I understand your desire for instant recognition by the cadets as someone who has been there done that (BTDT).

As a gun toter in DC where I worked to protect two different presidential appointees all over the globe, I worked for a former Special Forces guy, who happens to be a 35+ year member of CAP too.  He said "I don't care what you've done, where you've been, or what medals you have, I only care about what you can today, here, in this job."

From someone just 15 years old than you, take it from me, it's much cooler and much more gratifying, to be doing something with cadets, usually in the field, where you show them something high speed (for you, a medical skill maybe?) and they say "[darn], Doc, how did you learn that?", and you reply with, "well, I was a Corpsman in the Navy and assigned to the Marines in Iraq where I learned a few things like this..."  Then they look at you with their eyes open and that facial expression that just says "WOW".

Again, I DO understand where you're coming from.  Try being a 20 year old senior member as an E-3 in the Army and gaining acceptance from the BTDTs, both in CAP and the military. To them, I was just a snot nosed PFC trying to be a badass to cadets just a year or two younger than me.  I wore my jump wings for the same reason you want to wear your ribbons, to show that it's not your first day in a military uniform.  I get it.  And I'm not going to tell you NOT to be excited about it.  But I am looking forward to that day when the light switches on and you say (much like I did) "[darn], that Stonewall A-hole on CAP Talk was right, this bling stuff IS irrelevant..."   

[Майор Хаткевич]

The easiest, and most common suggestion is to simply make a "I served" ribbon, that is CAP specific and can be worn on any CAP uniform. As others said, while I appreciate your service, I did not serve, and have ZERO understanding behind your ribbons. TELL me about what you did, show me some cool stuff, but the ribbons on a CAP uniform mean nothing to me as we lack a common reference.

[Garibaldi]

Kind of reminds me of 2 sayings I've heard:

"That was yesterday. What have you done today?"

and

"That's all well and good, sonny, but this here's the Fleet."

[Jon Knapp]

Use your experiences in the Navy (or other branches) and your experiences in combat, even, to pass on VALUABLE lessons onto our young impressionable cadets.  I often think of a former cadet of mine who graduated PJOC at age 16 who is now a Special Forces Captain with multiple combat tours and sporting a medal with a "V" on it.  Just like when he graduated PJOC, and just like today, you'd never know where he's been or what he's done, unless you really knew him.  As a 16 year old cadet he led by example.  Sure, he wore his uniform properly, but unlike NBB or HMRS, there is no "bling" to show you've accomplished what I consider to be the most physically and mentally demanding NCSA.  Instead, he demonstrated his new found knowledge and experiences through his actions, not through his badges, patches, or ribbon rack.  In fact, as a cadet officer, he NEVER wore his ribbons, except for maybe 3 or 4 times he donned his service coat.

If I can learn something from a 16 year old cadet, so can we all.

That sounds like my birth dad, US Army Special Forces KIA Iraq 2003.  He said that he didn't care about the ribbons he wore, and in fact he would rather not wear them, because it reminded him of the friends that he had lost in combat.  He continued to say that they were killed, he wasn't, he got some neat ribbons they didn't...he said it didn't seem to make since.

I am a Hawk Grad and have staffed their winter school, but I do not agree at all with their attitudes.  I only went to learn leadership skills in a stressful environment, and I will say I did that. 

Please do not turn this into a Hawk, NBB, and any other activity bashing

Thanks

[Devil Doc]

I served Ribbon sounds Legit. Now lets dwell on the idea for 3 years, take 5 years to desgin them, then take 2 to pahse them in, lol.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I served Ribbon sounds Legit. Now lets dwell on the idea for 3 years, take 5 years to desgin them, then take 2 to pahse them in, lol.

The ribbon would have to be solid grey.

Distinguishing marks for each Service (in the form of each Service's seal) would be a device on the ribbon.

[Stonewall]

Please do not turn this into a Hawk, NBB, and any other activity bashing

I am Hawk alumni as well.  I wouldn't bash ANY CAP activity either way.  But I do think more highly of some than others 

[arajca]

I served Ribbon sounds Legit. Now lets dwell on the idea for 3 years, take 5 years to desgin them, then take 2 to pahse them in, lol.

It's already been submitted.

[Devil Doc]

It's already been submitted.
[/quote]

A I Served Ribbon? When was it submitted, and when will we hear the results on this?

[arajca]

A proposal was submitted a couple years ago. I figure we'll hear around 2020. Unless SOMEONE can spill the beans early.

[Private Investigator]

A proposal was submitted a couple years ago. I figure we'll hear around 2020. Unless SOMEONE can spill the beans early.

I am thinking the "timeline" would put it about the same time as the ABU phase-in, in 2024.   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I am thinking the "timeline" would put it about the same time as the ABU phase-in, in 2024.   

In the year 2525 by Zager & Evans