How Many Ribbons?

[flyboy53]

Do AF civilians have a uniform to wear their medals on?  Also, do they have corresponding ribbons that match the medals?

Uniform - no, not unless they're retired military or Guard/Reserve, and then I have doubts about whether these medals could be worn.

Yes, there are corresponding ribbon bars.  However, I didn't see anything about miniature medals.

I hope PHall was being facetious.

Other than the fact that we arent civilian enployees of the AFl......  small problem.

If you mean GS-level employees, no.  But when on AFAM's, we are in the Air Force's employ.

Because PHall is correct. There are only 10 or 11 DAFC decorations or service medals and most of them relate to full-time duties. They're guarded and rarely awarded except at the end of a career -- and there is a provision for them to be worn on an Air Force uniform at a specific location that used to be before any good conduct medals.

However, the idea has merit and it would take a lot of roadwork on the part of NHQ, involving the Board of Governors and ultimately asking the CSAF for permission. I would start really small, like for example extending the Humanitarian Service Medal to CAP crews involved in any of the various disaster recovery operations...or how about seeking permission to award the Civilian Air Medal, even though I haven't found it in any formal DoD guidiance.

What would happen if the AF extended the award of the Achievement Medal or Commendation Medal to deserving CAP members? Approval authority would be CAP-USAF.

[Eclipse]

What would happen if the AF extended the award of the Achievement Medal or Commendation Medal to deserving CAP members?

Ghostbusters - Mass Hysteria

[Ned]

So far it looks like the answers are:

1.  Seniors joining today (and as I should have specified, without prior cadet experience):  34.

2.  Cadets joining today: 36.

(Both assume that DR w/ "V" is different than DR without, and both could be worn.)


AFROTC: 52

AFJROTC: 44


I didn't see a figure for AD AF types, but may have missed it.

Do we generally agree on these figures at this point?

[NCRblues]

AD AF enlisted has to be in the upper 40's to the mid 50's range (without cross service awards) it would seem to me.

[PHall]

I hope PHall was being facetious.

The emoicon  wasn't enough of a clue? 

[GroundHawg]

Do AF civilians have a uniform to wear their medals on?  Also, do they have corresponding ribbons that match the medals?

Uniform - no, not unless they're retired military or Guard/Reserve, and then I have doubts about whether these medals could be worn.

Yes, there are corresponding ribbon bars.  However, I didn't see anything about miniature medals.

I hope PHall was being facetious.

Other than the fact that we arent civilian enployees of the AFl......  small problem.

If you mean GS-level employees, no.  But when on AFAM's, we are in the Air Force's employ.

They can be worn on any military uniform provided they are properly added to ones DD214 or NGB22. Same goes for CAP. As a reservist at WPAFB, quite a few of our reservists were also AF/DOD/DLA/DISA/DIA civilians, and "double dipped" on both paychecks as well as awards and decorations. Its fairly common Ive heard with the AF pilots who have flown for NASA and get some of their candy, or with USMC on embassy duty to get State Dept awards. I had to learn alot of extra regs before we did a blues inspection prior to a change of command, and ALOT of my squadron had civilian, other service, foreign, etc... badges and ribbons to contend with.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I mean, u can tell who is active in CAP and who just shows up for meetings.

Not necessarily.  I've said this before, and I don't want to sound like I'm trumpeting myself, but so much of it depends on who you know and how good you are at "getting noticed."  I am a worker bee type, and quite reserved in person (think Reg Barclay on Star Trek: The Next Generation).  I tend to "blend into the woodwork" much of the time.  My only decoration is my CommComm, and that was six years ago.

Conversely, I have seen SM's and 2nd Lt's who are friends of the wing king or assorted staff types with two or three CommComm's and Achievement Awards.  These are often people who are very extroverted, good at glad-handing, etc., which I am awful at.  If you're familiar with the Briggs-Meyers personality tests, think ISFJ.

I'm not trying to sound resentful, just stating an unfortunate truth that is applicable to many situations in life: it's too often who you know, not what you do.  And I'm sure not going to go around asking for awards.

I hope PHall was being facetious.

The emoicon  wasn't enough of a clue? 

I thought so, but didn't want to assume.

WRT speciality badges...I have two, a Technician badge for Safety and a Master's badge for Administration.  I usually only wear them on my service coat.  The only one I wear on my blue/white shirt is my Observer wings.

[RADIOMAN015]

My personal feeling on the wear of other than CAP awards/ribbons on ANY CAP uniform (including the AF style) is that it should be prohibited.  Again all military awards/ribbons are prohibited for wear on ANY CAP uniform.   This also includes any other military occupational designation badges/corps designations/various air crew wings.

Since members who wear an "appropriate"  uniform such as the grey & whites/blazers are prohibited by the AF from wearing armed forces ribbons, CAP should have a consistent approach that does not punish members for their choice to wear of a specific uniform type and has a level playing field consistent with respect for all members.

HOWEVER, IF CAP along with other military related organizations are willing to approach the USAF, USN, USMC and propose a consistent regulation DOD wide, that on an "appropriate" civilian type clothing/uniform (including all Civil Air Patrol Uniforms, including the white/grey, and blazer, American Legion, VFW, etc uniforms) that earned military awards/ribbons may be worn.

See: http://usmilitary.about.com/od/theorderlyroom/a/medalwear.htm the Army regulation that currently skirts this authorization.

....... Army Regulation 670-1, paragraph 30-6, says that former members of the Army (including active duty, reserves, or Army National Guard), may wear medals on "appropriate" civilian clothing on Veteran's Day, Memorial Day, and Armed Forces Day, as well as at "formal occasions of ceremony and social functions of a military nature." "Appropriate" civilian clothes includes clothes designed for veteran and patriotic organizations, such as VFW or American Legion uniforms. You can wear either the full-size or miniture-size medals. You should place the medals and decorations in approximately the same location and in the same manner as for the Army uniform, so they look similar to medals worn on the Army uniform.........

HOWEVER, regarding any other badges/designators on the CAP uniform NONE should be allowed, ONLY CAP related functional badges/designators/aeronautical awarded ratings should be worn on ANY CAP uniform.

RM   


   

[arajca]

It seems like this discussion has moved to an older discussion -> http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=11331.0

As the last poster in that discussion, I add my attachments here for further discussion since I made a couple minor changes since then.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[abdsp51]

Again all military awards/ribbons are prohibited for wear on ANY CAP uniform.

Wrong on both counts;

5-4. Military Service Awards.  Military service ribbons may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform provided they were awarded in writing by competent military authority.  Awards of the Air Force, Army, Navy, Marine Corps, or Coast Guard will be worn in the order prescribed by the awarding service, subject to the following:  In all cases of relative priority, Air Force awards will take precedence.  See Table 5-3.  Awards for wars, campaigns, expeditions etc., will be worn in chronological sequence

Military Badges

6-7. US Military Badges.  CAP members may wear only the US military badges authorized for wear on the US Air Force uniform when earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority for service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States or its allies.  The military badges authorized for wear on the CAP uniform and BDU are listed in Table 6-5.  Before wearing any badge not listed in this table, contact National HeadquartersLMM for clarification.  US Military badges are not authorized for wear on any of the CAP distinctive uniforms.

For some who throws out an AFI every chance he gets brush up on the uniform manual before putting out bad info.

[RADIOMAN015]

Again all military awards/ribbons are prohibited for wear on ANY CAP uniform.

Wrong on both counts;

5-4. Military Service Awards. 
Military Badges

6-7. US Military Badges. 
For some who throws out an AFI every chance he gets brush up on the uniform manual before putting out bad info.

What I'm saying is that CAP uniform wear whether it be the white/grey or blues should be consistent in authorization for wear of earned military ribbons & military badges.   Remember it is a CAP uniform regarding CAP members, NOT an AF uniform being worn by AF members.

CAP can make any policy they want regarding what they will prohibit from wearing on the AF style uniform.
Since CAP is unwilling to get the USAF (and other services, with perhaps the exception of the Army) to agree that the wear of military service awards/badges on (what i would term "appropriate" civilian wear type uniform (similar to  American Legion & VFW uniforms mentioned in the Army Regulation), in all fairness to all than NO military awards/badges should NOT be authorized for wear on ANY CAP uniform.

RM   

[Garibaldi]

Army Regulation), in all fairness to all than NO military awards/badges should NOT be authorized for wear on ANY CAP uniform.

RM   

So military awards/badges should be authorized for wear on any CAP uniform. Take out the double negative.

[RADIOMAN015]

Army Regulation), in all fairness to all than NO military awards/badges should NOT be authorized for wear on ANY CAP uniform.

RM   

So military awards/badges should be authorized for wear on any CAP uniform. Take out the double negative.

Military awards should be authorized on ALL uniforms.  IF it can't than NO military awards should be worn on ANY style of the CAP uniform.

Regarding badges, NONE should be authorized for wear on ANY CAP uniform.

Sorry my eyes are tired.

RM 

[Eclipse]

Since members who wear an "appropriate"  uniform such as the grey & whites/blazers

Amazing.

[abdsp51]

And there is the catch all if it can't be worn on corp uniforms, because I don't want to shave or meet h/w then no one should.

[Walkman]

RM does have a point. By restricting the wear of RM decs/awards/etc to only the AF style uniforms, that creates another level of separation between the uniform "classes" (for lack of a better word). We've all heard (or felt) the notion that those who don't wear the AF-style uniforms are somehow "2nd class".

I understand that it's the other military branches that are restricting the wear of their ribbons. I have no idea what kind of mountain moving it would take on the part of NHQ to get something like that in the regs, though.

To be perfectly honest, I'd prefer not to reduce the number of ribbons we can receive. I'm one who is motivated by earning grade and ribbons. As it's been said, it's part of our "paycheck". So I work harder knowing that I'll get some recognition. I also do this in my professional life. I've won numerous advertising awards and it feels good. It's the only recognition people in my field get.

I guess I don't understand why creating a system to recognize good work in a volunteer organization is bad.

[abdsp51]

Don't overlook the fact he's anti any uniform not corp.  I get that there are some who can not wear the AF style for reasons, but there are some that choose not too.  Don't penalize current/retired service members to level the playing field.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I dint get this whole fat and fuzzy thing. I've seen SMs in blues/bdu who needed a shave a day or two prior. I've seen SM who clearly are too heavy for AF uniforms wear them, wear them incorrectly, and neither care nor have anyone in their leadership willing to have that "hard" talk. Call me a cynic, but very few people wear the g/w "because they have to" Most wear them because they like the uniform and it is easy/cheap to maintain.

[PA Guy]

I dint get this whole fat and fuzzy thing. I've seen SMs in blues/bdu who needed a shave a day or two prior. I've seen SM who clearly are too heavy for AF uniforms wear them, wear them incorrectly, and neither care nor have anyone in their leadership willing to have that "hard" talk. Call me a cynic, but very few people wear the g/w "because they have to" Most wear them because they like the uniform and it is easy/cheap to maintain.

Just because some members lack the integrity to do the right thing doesn't excuse them.  I don't like the g/w but since I don't meet the ht/wt requirements I "have to" to do otherwise would reflect poorly on me.  I particularlly dislike not being able to wear any of my military ribbons and being looked upon as some kind of second class citizen.

To buy and maintain a set of g/w costs just as much if not more than the AF style.

[LGM30GMCC]

Allllrighty I think I may jump into the fire for a bit. 

Regarding too many 'candy' ribbons. Because of the host of different ways one can get promoted I can see value in the PD ribbons still. (The senior who has come up through the PD program to become Captain vs the CFI who did Lvl 1 and then pinned on Capt.)

I can see the argument to shed the Membership ribbon but I can also see it as a way of saying 'thank you' and a tiny bit of motivation for someone who has just come into the program. If done with a little bit of ceremony and genuine appreciation it can help the newbie feel wanted and valued in the 6 months prior to pinning on 2d Lt. I don't have a problem with that.

Regarding G/Ws vs Blues. It actually cost me more money to set up G/Ws than it did blues and requires more work to put them on in some cases. I'm an AD AF Officer. I need to switch out 2 things on my shirt and 'Poof!' CAP shirt. 1 thing on my flight cap. Service dress is even easier. I also wear the G/Ws sometimes (rarely) and (if you couldn't guess) I am neither fat nor fuzzy. I wear them in the same manner in which I wear my blues. Mx on them is just as heavy. Comfort is the same as blues.

I don't wear any of my military ribbons on any of my CAP uniforms. I'm not a big guy (5'7" 130lbs) so I just don't have room for that many ribbons plus my various wings/badges. The only AF item I regularly wear on my uniform is my missile badge. At NSC we could only wear 2 badges total on G/Ws and Blues (don't know why, but hey) and I was a little bummed but I played around with what 2 to wear and it amused me on some level. The few days I wore G/Ws I was a little bummed I couldn't wear my missile badge, but I got over it. If a young little pup like me can do it, so can our older vets.

As to the whole second-class citizen I think that is a cultural problem and a completely different issue that isn't going to go away no matter what you do with uniforms.

There are vets out there who feel like they should be given 'extra' recognition or that somehow others in CAP don't 'deserve' or haven't 'earned' the right to wear officer insignia to begin with. Frankly, the vast majority of vets never earned the right to wear officer insignia either, so tough. I wear O-4 rank in CAP and have done so while an O-2 and O-3 on AD. My AD Sq/CC (an AD O-5) would tease me sometimes, but he teased me regardless. He had quite a bit of respect for what I did. The better things we do as CAP, the less the people who have AD rank are going to care what we are wearing. They'll know who we are, and what we do, and the majority won't care what we wear. The ones with sticks up their rears may get all bent out of shape, but they tend to get bent out of shape no matter what.

There are those who feel they are treated as a second-class citizen and I tell you that can happen no matter what we wear. Some pilots treat non-pilots like second class citizens. Some ES folks treat non-ES folks that way. Some ground team members do it. Some Cadet Programs members treat anyone who doesn't want to work with cadets for whatever reason that way. Comm guys, commanders, dudes from one wing or specific squadrons. People like to feel they are more equal than others. As long as you get a group of more than about...2 you have a pretty decent chance of someone being treated like a second-class citizen.

To get back closer to the topic: AD does give out 'congratulations you did a decent job at your job and didn't kill anyone' awards. At the end of a duty assignment the  vast majority of people give out some kind of service award. It's roughly tied to your rank in many cases.

An enlisted member of the AF, only in the AF, can earn about 55 ribbons
An officer, who has only been in the AF, can earn about 48 ribbons

Also of note: There is an enlisted-only AF NCO PME Graduate ribbon.

As to ribbon addition/removal: I may send it up at some point but with regards to the command service ribbon vs the badge. I would like us to dump the command service ribbon and use the basic command badge the way the USAF does. All current commanders O-6 and below wear it above the name plate, all former wear it below. No difference for SQ, Gp, or Wg. This would also provide the benefit amongst the O-6 crowd of identifying who is a current Wing or Region CC vs who was one, vs who was one of those high-up NHQ level positions that garnered O-6 for a bit. It would also be 1 less ribbon, and a fair trade I would say. And mirrors the AD USAF which I think is a good thing.

Now back to your regular squabbles.