New senior member uniforms

Started by umpirecali, September 04, 2012, 04:19:19 AM

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BigShu

Quote from: abdsp51 on September 05, 2012, 11:32:37 PM
At least we have uniforms for members who can't/won't meet height and weight or grooming standards to wear the AF style uniform.  The US military was not the only military to adopt shaving.  And that has more to do with hygene and sanitary reasons than anything else.

I agree with the idea of distinctive uniforms, in addition to the AF style. I read a lot of posts from people that it's confusing and splinters the organization. My company started off with a clean shaven policy because we were required to be trained in the use of, and able to don immediately, SCBA's for both escape and rescue in haz atmospheres. It became clear that too much trust was being placed in the training and equipment industry wide, and we reduced the requirement to a handful of specialties. Now, I work with a bunch of guys who sport beards, and truth be told, a few of them look better with the beard. I'm not equating beards with messy appearance, I'm just questioning the distinction between our parent service and our organization's grooming standards.
We had a discussion in another thread about the requirement for the National Commander to be at level 5, and have a bachelor's degree. The argument for it is that it shows the Air Force that we feel our leader needs the same background as Air Force leaders do. And will be accepted more readily as a peer. If we can say that a college education is needed to get to the top in CAP, why is something much easier: attaining the grooming standard, blown off as no big deal?

Майор Хаткевич

Lice/other parasites in the field I bet were a bigger consideration than trench/gas mask warfare for most services.

Devil Doc

The only way ive seen people able to not shave in the military are:

No Shave Chit
Religion
or certain people in Clandestine Operations.

Did I miss any?
Captain Brandon P. Smith CAP
Former HM3, U.S NAVY
Too many Awards, Achievments and Qualifications to list.


Eclipse

Quote from: denverpilot on September 05, 2012, 07:11:51 PM
Quote from: BigShu on September 05, 2012, 02:17:56 AM
While we're talking about distinctive uniforms, I hear a lot of references to "fat and fuzzy" or "heavy and hairy". I'm not hairy, but I'm a little heavy. I'm working on that, because I think it makes sense to be fit for duty. But even while fat, anyone can avoid fuzzy. Whats the rationale for relaxed grooming standards? Isn't it important to the missions to carry ourselves as professionally as possible?

Some of the smartest and most professional people I know in my day job are male and have heavy beards or even pony-tails.

Do not mistake professional for shaven. People do it regularly to one person I know, and I swear he keeps the beard just to find out who's on the left side of the bell curve when they meet him.

If he were even slightly interested in Aviation, it would be fun to have him join CAP and watch him intellectually body-slam a few folks who're hung up on shaven faces.

We all anecdotally "know a guy" for whatever point we want to make.  That's not the mean or the curve.  I know lots of people too - by far the majority of those in the business world that are customer-facing adhere to the generalized grooms of society, and those who choose to be "different', are not
customer-facing, or are in the tech sector where grooming and dress are less of a concern, usually again because they don't get into the light of day much.

The fact of the matter is that in American society, beards and ponytails are not considered the social norm, and those who wear them (barring the guy who claims he "can't shave") do so to make a statement - usually about how "individual they are".

CAP is about uniformity, conformity, and sacrificing some of your individuality to be assimilated into something larger then yourself for the purposes of accomplishing a mission, not proving how wrong the "man" is about your grooming.

"That Others May Zoom"

Devil Doc

When it comes to the Van Heusen Shirts. There are 3 different short sleeve styles the Aviator, Commander, and the Pilot what are the differences. Thank you :) also, just for some advise how do i find out what size I am? If  i get size 18, the shirt fits wel, but the neck is too small, if i get and 18.5 or an 19, ive noticed the shirt swallows me whole. I have an big neck, always hated it when i was issued uniforms.
Captain Brandon P. Smith CAP
Former HM3, U.S NAVY
Too many Awards, Achievments and Qualifications to list.


BigShu

Quote from: Devil Doc on September 06, 2012, 03:30:24 AM
When it comes to the Van Heusen Shirts. There are 3 different short sleeve styles the Aviator, Commander, and the Pilot what are the differences. Thank you :) also, just for some advise how do i find out what size I am? If  i get size 18, the shirt fits wel, but the neck is too small, if i get and 18.5 or an 19, ive noticed the shirt swallows me whole. I have an big neck, always hated it when i was issued uniforms.
On the commander, you have fake pocket flaps with open top pockets. On the aviator, you have real flap pockets. On the pilot, you have real flap pockets and eyelets for wings. Minor differences in fabric too.

denverpilot

Quote from: Eclipse on September 06, 2012, 03:18:26 AM

We all anecdotally "know a guy" for whatever point we want to make.  That's not the mean or the curve.  I know lots of people too - by far the majority of those in the business world that are customer-facing adhere to the generalized grooms of society, and those who choose to be "different', are not
customer-facing, or are in the tech sector where grooming and dress are less of a concern, usually again because they don't get into the light of day much.

Stereotypes and closing in on discrimination.

The person I know is a double PhD and very customer-facing. Another is a middle manager.

Neither of the above wears their facial or head hair in an unkempt or wild fashion. Groomed and trimmed.

Quote from: Eclipse on September 06, 2012, 03:18:26 AM
CAP is about uniformity, conformity, and sacrificing some of your individuality to be assimilated into something larger then yourself for the purposes of accomplishing a mission, not proving how wrong the "man" is about your grooming.

Interesting that you place uniformity, conformity, and sacrifice *before* accomplishing the mission in that sentence.  I assume that's not the impression of the priorities you meant to convey. ;)

Norms change. Everyone used to go to work in suits.  I haven't had a requirement of wearing a tie, even in front of customers, since 1991. The closets in my house built in 1968 are small because the working guy went to work in a suit and maybe had five of them. Mrs. had a similar number of dresses.

Khakis and a button down shirt are as fancy as it gets at my workplaces. And that's "people are visiting we want to impress in fake and silly ways" days.

Even my house of worship has very few numbers of people wearing ties. Button down shirts are a little more popular, but the building sits on a border of two neighborhoods, one of which is chock full of $2-$5M houses. Most folks in that neighborhood work in Finance, and therefore will probably be the last to give up on "impressing" customers with clothes that make them look like they're rich. A different kind of "bling" so to speak, compared to poor neighborhoods.

Customers want results, they don't care what we wear in my real "professional" life.

In the summer, my company drops down to shorts and t-shirts and encourages people to go outside and walk, etc. Their medical costs are skyrocketing and getting office workers moving is far more useful to them than pretending fancy clothes mean anything. 

Folks are treated as adults and will bring in a change of clothes if they have a customer meeting, which means putting on khakis and a polo.

CAP uniforms and conformity probably have more value these days in covering up who's loaded and who's living on meager means, and serve more to make folks feel equals in that, than anything.

No harm in that. Although its usually pretty obvious anyway. The guy with a $1000 watch poking out from under his blazer uniform is obvious. ;)

Secondarily they provide a way for the public to identify us when we might have a reason to work in public.

But as untold numbers of threads here have pointed out, the myriad of authorized uniforms actually works against that. I shouldn't even bring it up. Again.

And so many folks wear even a polo so badly (unwashed, wrinkled, lunch on it, enough dandruff that everyone knows the shower is a foreign place to them) that we still have to hide them behind the PIOs no matter how useful they are to a mission. ;) ;) ;)

Self-respect shows, no matter what uniform or clothes someone has on, or how long their hair is.  That's the important part. Unwashed, unkempt, generally a mess, just seems to follow some folks around no matter what uniform an organization puts them in.

Eclipse

#47
Since CAP allows for the participation of people with "non-standard" ideas about grooming, then it's nowhere near "discrimination", but stereotyping,
yep, spot on and I was right.  A Ph.d with a ponytail and a feeling of superiority? I'm sure we're all shocked. 

Quote from: denverpilot on September 06, 2012, 05:16:06 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 06, 2012, 03:18:26 AM
CAP is about uniformity, conformity, and sacrificing some of your individuality to be assimilated into something larger then yourself for the purposes of accomplishing a mission, not proving how wrong the "man" is about your grooming.

Interesting that you place uniformity, conformity, and sacrifice *before* accomplishing the mission in that sentence. Unwashed, unkempt, generally a mess, just seems to follow some folks around no matter what uniform an organization puts them in.

More interesting that you think they can be separated.  Uniformity of appearance and training is a cornerstone of the cadet program and emergency services.  Conformity is a major expectation of the entire program, and sacrifice of individuality is the hallmark of a team player, and key to those
who have had success in CAP.

You say that what you wear doesn't matter, then you say that people bring a change of clothes for meetings.  Why is the meeting different?

"That Others May Zoom"

abdsp51

#48
And the age old arguement of performance vs appearance rears it's ugly head again.  We have two different styles for people, who choose to meet h/w and grooming standards and those who choose not to or can't.  End of the day pick one wear it properly and press on.  Options are there across the board and if you choose to not meet h/w or want to abide by grooming to wear the AF style uniform you have no room to complain.

denverpilot

Quote from: Eclipse on September 06, 2012, 05:34:30 AM
You say that what you wear doesn't matter, then you say that people bring a change of clothes for meetings.  Why is the meeting different?

Caution against possible misguided stereotypes of the outsiders they're meeting with, mostly.

After the first meeting, if the customer is noted not to have these stereotypes from the left side of the bell curve, future meetings will probably take place in whatever clothes they happen to be in. Once they know the person knows how to solve their business problem.

Two employers ago, family pets such as well-trained dogs were welcome.  That place was 70 hour work weeks, and getting some "life balance" was nearly impossible. Everyone had bicycles, dogs, toys, whatever they needed at their desks to alleviate their personal stress.

I'm not arguing against CAP using conformity as a tool, I'm just saying uniforms and what not are often not the social norm anymore, at all. I spend more time playing dress-up for CAP than any other organization I belong to or work for, today.

Thus, Corporate uniforms for me.  The folks that earned the right to wear the military stuff, Inhave too much respect for to jack it up.  Polo 90% of the time. White aviator in front of a classroom. If I even have time to go change between work and meeting. 

White aviator requires some care and prep, and I won't put it on looking wrinkled and shabby. Polo can hang in the back of the SUV and be thrown on in the parking garage at work if I already have the gray pants, shoes, and belt on.

Days when I do that, I get ribbed by co-workers, "You have an interview at lunch?". Seriously. Because I wore gray wool/polyester Dockers.

They get a serious laugh out of the White Aviator with all the gadgets on it.

Eclipse

Quote from: denverpilot on September 06, 2012, 07:04:31 PMTwo employers ago, family pets such as well-trained dogs were welcome.  That place was 70 hour work weeks, and getting some "life balance" was nearly impossible. Everyone had bicycles, dogs, toys, whatever they needed at their desks to alleviate their personal stress.

Quote from: denverpilot on September 06, 2012, 07:04:31 PM
I'm not arguing against CAP using conformity as a tool, I'm just saying uniforms and what not are often not the social norm anymore, at all. I spend more time playing dress-up for CAP than any other organization I belong to or work for, today.

You might, but your work environment is not typical by a long shot.  Ride a commuter train in a major city and you will see that at a minimum collared shirts and dockers are the expectation.  You work in the tech sector, pretty deep into it, and your experience isn't typical for the average office environment. It is typical for the .dot commers who believe they can "make their own rules", and while things are going well, they can.  Zuckerberg got all kinds of grief for showing up to investor meetings in a hoodie, buy hey "He's The Zuck, right?" 

I spent a lot of time selling equipment for $.30 on the dollar because of people who were "the smartest in the room" and felt the normal rules didn't apply, until they did.

In CAP, the normal rules apply.


"That Others May Zoom"

AirDX

Quote from: tsrup on September 05, 2012, 03:17:48 PM

Because the regulation requires a minimum of the short sleeve blues or aviator whites.


Any commander that does not make this clear to new members is doing that new member a disservice. 
Not to mention we have established quite a few times that the aviator whites can be just as cheap if not cheaper than the polo, so it is not a price issue.

What's really happening is the regulation is doing us a disservice.  The "basic uniform" is good for an office environment, and that's about it.  How many of us perform our CAP duties in an office?  We are in hangars, outside with cadets, in airplanes, etc.  I wear the blue golf shirt exclusively.  I bought the white aviator, and the nameplate and badges to go with it, a year ago, and I have worn it exactly once.  I'm glad I have it at the ready in case I need to go to a meeting of some sort that I want to dress up a bit for, but as far as it being the "basic" uniform, it may be by reg, but in reality it's a distant option.  The golf shirt and a pair of gray Dickies work pants work just fine for regular meetings, flying, driving around in a van looking for an ELT, and 99% of everything else I do.  I'd put together BBDUs for some of the stuff outside in the field, but I don't feel like sewing all the junk on them.

As far as all the jackets, ties, etc - you will never see them on my body. 

For the fuzzy issue, neat and Air Force standards are two different things entirely.  You can be outside (far outside!) of the Air Force reg and yet be perfectly neat and professional.  My hair is usually meets Air Force standards (it should, I get it cut at the BX) but I've had a mustache for over 30 years, and I'll be [darn]ed if I'm going to trim it into that little Hitler brush the Air Force allows.     
Believe in fate, but lean forward where fate can see you.

Eclipse

So...it's ok for the cadets to have to wear their blues, but somehow "inappropropriate" for the seniors to do it?

The adult leadership should be in the exact same uniform as the cadets, otherwise you wind up with the credibility gap
that exists today.

"That Others May Zoom"

tsrup

Quote from: AirDX on September 06, 2012, 09:02:35 PM
Quote from: tsrup on September 05, 2012, 03:17:48 PM

Because the regulation requires a minimum of the short sleeve blues or aviator whites.


Any commander that does not make this clear to new members is doing that new member a disservice. 
Not to mention we have established quite a few times that the aviator whites can be just as cheap if not cheaper than the polo, so it is not a price issue.

What's really happening is the regulation is doing us a disservice.  The "basic uniform" is good for an office environment, and that's about it.  How many of us perform our CAP duties in an office?  We are in hangars, outside with cadets, in airplanes, etc.  I wear the blue golf shirt exclusively.  I bought the white aviator, and the nameplate and badges to go with it, a year ago, and I have worn it exactly once.  I'm glad I have it at the ready in case I need to go to a meeting of some sort that I want to dress up a bit for, but as far as it being the "basic" uniform, it may be by reg, but in reality it's a distant option.  The golf shirt and a pair of gray Dickies work pants work just fine for regular meetings, flying, driving around in a van looking for an ELT, and 99% of everything else I do.  I'd put together BBDUs for some of the stuff outside in the field, but I don't feel like sewing all the junk on them.

As far as all the jackets, ties, etc - you will never see them on my body. 

For the fuzzy issue, neat and Air Force standards are two different things entirely.  You can be outside (far outside!) of the Air Force reg and yet be perfectly neat and professional.  My hair is usually meets Air Force standards (it should, I get it cut at the BX) but I've had a mustache for over 30 years, and I'll be [darn]ed if I'm going to trim it into that little Hitler brush the Air Force allows.     

Every activity that you describe is above what's considered basic.  The basic uniform is all thats needed to show up to a meeting once a week, and once upon a time it was the only uniform you wore to meetings.

The point is, if you want to be a member of CAP, buy the basic uniform.

You want to do anything else in the program?  Then buy the appropriate one. 

It's not rocket surgery.

With correct application of the regulation, a SM wouldn't be able to participate in anything above showing up till completing their level one.  Which should include owning and correctly wearing the Minimum service uniform.
Paramedic
hang-around.

AirDX

Quote from: tsrup on September 06, 2012, 09:09:49 PM

Every activity that you describe is above what's considered basic.  The basic uniform is all thats needed to show up to a meeting once a week, and once upon a time it was the only uniform you wore to meetings.

The point is, if you want to be a member of CAP, buy the basic uniform.

You want to do anything else in the program?  Then buy the appropriate one. 


And what I'm saying is the basic uniform doesn't work for most of it.  Put your white (or blue) shirt on and go spend the day flying.  That dress shirt will be a sorry looking rag by the time you're done.

When the majority of the membership doesn't know what the reg says about the minimum basic uniform... the minimum basic uniform is not appropriate for most activities we do in an active squadron... so even if you do buy it it just stays on a hangar in the closet for years.... then the reg is out of touch with reality, practicality, and necessity, and needs to be changed.

Believe in fate, but lean forward where fate can see you.

LGM30GMCC

Quote from: AirDX on September 07, 2012, 12:14:11 AM


And what I'm saying is the basic uniform doesn't work for most of it.  Put your white (or blue) shirt on and go spend the day flying.  That dress shirt will be a sorry looking rag by the time you're done.

When the majority of the membership doesn't know what the reg says about the minimum basic uniform... the minimum basic uniform is not appropriate for most activities we do in an active squadron... so even if you do buy it it just stays on a hangar in the closet for years.... then the reg is out of touch with reality, practicality, and necessity, and needs to be changed.

Forgive me if I don't buy your arguments. Thousands of pilots fly every day in the equivalent to the aviator shirt uniform. And not just the big stuff like CRJs and up. We're talking a lot of the little airplanes whose cockpits are not much larger than a C-182. Somehow they manage to do it without turning their uniform into a 'sorry looking rag'. As to the big stuff, we have people who fly big stuff in suit and tie...and manage not to destroy them either. Edit - Perfect Example. Flight Instructors at UND wear an Aviator Shirt Uniform and are flying aircraft that are equivalent in size to our own. They manage just fine.

As to the other stuff...as long as you aren't rolling around in the dirt/climbing through the woods you can wear blues or G/W through a grassy field and not destroy them. Just don't wear patent-leather or equivalent shoes and you can polish nicks or scuffs out of them.

As to the hangers...are you tearing apart an aircraft every week or something? You can move tables, chairs, all that stuff without destroying a uniform. Just takes a bit of care.

Many, MANY activities cadets do could reasonably be done in blues without risking some horrific damage to them. Even active things like building model rockets, launching them, drill, many GLPs, etc. You might get them a little dirty, but it's not like if they are exposed to dirt they immediately disintegrate.

If it's so hard-core that G/Ws don't cut it, the polo-shirt uniform, which is functionally pretty much equivalent, probably can't really handle it either. You should be wearing BDUs, the Field Uniform, or Utility uniform.

As for formality, the Polo Shirt is formally = to BDUs, Field Uniform, Utilities. It is inappropriate for events where the UOD is G/Ws, or Blues. Truthfully, for classroom training/duties (which the vast majority of SMs prolly should be doing anyway) blues and G/Ws are perfectly functional.

Phil Hirons, Jr.

Quote from: LGM30GMCC on September 07, 2012, 12:27:29 AM

As for formality, the Polo Shirt is formally = to BDUs, Field Uniform, Utilities. It is inappropriate for events where the UOD is G/Ws, or Blues. Truthfully, for classroom training/duties (which the vast majority of SMs prolly should be doing anyway) blues and G/Ws are perfectly functional.

As we start football season, I have to throw the yellow beanbag on this.

From CAPM 39-1










Table 4-8. CAP Distinctive Uniform Equivalents to USAF-Style Uniform
LineCAP Distinctive UniformUSAF-Style Uniform Equal
1Utility Uniform/Field UniformBattle Dress Uniform (BDU)
2Blazer UniformService Dress Uniform
3Blazer Semiformal Uniform (without
nameplate) Appropriate civilian attire is
recommended for females.
Mess Dress (Senior Members), Semiformal
(Cadets) or Civilian Formal Wear
4Aviator Shirt with EpauletsAF-style light blue shirt
5Knit ShirtsAF-style light blue shirt (unless otherwise specified)
6Blue Flight SuitGreen Flight Suit
7Blue Flight JacketGreen Flight Jacket

While "(unless otherwise specified)" gives commanders / directors the leeway to decide otherwise the fallback position is
Polo = AF Blue

Eclipse

Do you really believe the golf shirt is equivalent to the blues?

That's NHQ trying to pacify people who can't be bothered.

"That Others May Zoom"

arajca

What people here believe is entirely irrelevant to the reg. If the regs says golf shirt = AF Style light blue shirt, it does. Your point of view and opinion of the golf shirt is irrelevant. If you specify a particular uniform for a class as I have seen (AF blue shirt or equivalent) you can't complain when member show up in the golf shirt.

spacecommand

And goes back to my original points, if you are going to go by the regulations and listen to the regulations only, the regulations says that the white aviator shirt is the basic minimal corporate uniform (not the polo shirt), so telling a new member that they should just buy and wear the polo shirt is not correct, regardless of what you think about the white aviator shirt.

So if the regulation says white aviator shirt or blues as the basic minimal uniform, then it doesn't matter what you think about the whites (or blues), you got to have one.