DI

[Abby.L]

As a matter of fact it was AFJROTC Our Drill Sgt was insane...

I have the AF manual as well as the stuff from the capmembers site in my big black book - my neighbors looked at me like I was crazy while I was running myself through the basics earlier today in my gym shorts and a t-shirt with my dress shoes on (for snap). I suppose anyone looks a little strange when they are giving themselves drill commands though.

An interesting extension of what you're doing - what is the purpose of drilling?  What purpose does it serve and what do others get out of it?

Remember WIIFM (What's in it for me).  You'll never convince a fish that fishing is a great idea by telling them how delicious dinner will be.  What do others get out of drilling and what if they don't?

Well, since you asked...

Drilling is a great way to build Esprit De Corps, and it build the team as such, and it builds the individuals in there. It is also, in the most practical sense, a great way to move folks from point A to point B. 

[Eeyore]

Yes, but moving from point A to point B for senior members, if it's more than 50 or so feet, requires wheeled/winged transportation. If it's less than 50 feet, it may be a slow moving gaggle, but only if there is coffee/snacks at point B. 

[Abby.L]

Very true. Maybe we should implement PT standards for SMs?  Entirely kidding, BTW....

[bflynn]

Smile when you say that

Seriously, I think we understand the military based reasons for it.

I was just hoping to get you to think about what will happen if your audience doesn't share your enthuasim.  Different people want different things from the organization.  Not everyone wants EDC or a great way to get from A to B.

[krnlpanick]

All joking aside, I think there should absolutely be PT req's for SMs participating in ES at the very least - there may be, I haven't made it that far in reading yet. If I am not mistaken most first responder types (fireman, cops, emt) all have physical fitness requirements as part of the promotion process as well. If you are qualified to hike up a mountain and rescue an injured climber you [darn] sure well better be able to actually perform that task.

I am establishing a daily routing for both my son and I to do so A) he gets the exercise he needs to pass PT tests and get promoted and B) I can get back into the shape that I used to be in. 7 years of office work has taken it's toll on me and I want to make sure that I am in physical condition to provide any ES that may come our way. Even if we never get a mission, I would rather be physcially able to do so and never need to than have the need arise and not be able to fulfill my end of the bargain.

As for the "whats in it for me" question - I think that Levilockling hit the nail on the head, but I also think it's much more than that.

I remember many years ago we had a corporate team building exercise at work - it happened in 2 phases. Phase 1 we formed 2 teams (Red and Blue) and developed training strategies for Phase 2 - an all out paintball war in the hills. As part of our training I went back to some of the drill that I learned way back in high school and thought about how I could get people to move as a unit - people of many different shapes, sizes and abilities. I decided to split my team into 3 smaller units - we had an assault unit, a support unit, and overwatch. The assualt unit was tasked with acquiring the enemy flag. They had to learn to move swiftly and quietly and with purpose through a wooded area. This is where the drilling came in - and silent drilling at that, I worked with 4 primary commands - forward, right, left and halt. I worked on cadence with them so that if they were heard - it would be more likely that their numbers would be underestimated as it would be a single set of footsteps through the woods instead of 6 sets. After the event was over we had all developed a different kind of bond than we had with some of the other people we worked with and I found myself kind of wishing that I had included the others in that exercise as well, but you know what they say about hindsight. Learning to function as a single entity builds on ones skills to identify and fill voids in a team - which is an invaluable life lesson, it gives us a unique skillset to adapt to various situations by using everyone's strengths, and it helps to teach us about how we can gain greater success by working with others instead of against them.

TL;DR - It is a great teambuilding and character building exercise and helps you succeed on a lot of different levels in life.

This is all just my $0.02 so take it FWIW, but I hope you found some answers in my story. I told my son the same story when he asked why drilling was important.

[spacecommand]

I disagree, we have many qualified SMs who participate in ES but for one reason or another would not/ cannot do/pass PT, but they still provide essential services during ES missions and other missions we carry out in CAP.

[flyboy53]

Doh! Apologies to any Marines - I obviously was not one, I was only speaking to the FMJ reference.

Anyhow, yes - the cadet NCOs will be (and currently do) drilling the cadets. The details of what I will be doing precisely are kind of open ended at this time. I know that I want to spend a lot of time working with our Color Guard to get them tightened up and work with them on new things to help create opportunities for them. I also want to make sure that we set some realistic goals as a squadron to clean up and get the basics down pat. Opportunities to do things like march in a parade are huge recruiting opportunities for us and I think it is important that the cadets be tight for those types of events (which we have on the schedule)

The main question was if there was some sort of official position and insignia for that position - seeing as how there is not that question has most definitely been answered. I personally think that even though there is no "requirement" for Senior Members to drill that they should be in proper positions during opening ceremonies, understand the basics of drill, as well as what was already mentioned (knowing how/when to salute, etc). We are mentors for the cadets in our squadron and it is unfair to expect them to take drill and ceremonies seriously if we do not. That is however, just my opinion so take it for what it's worth.

Yes - I have already noted several big differences between JROTC drill and CAP drill. I dont expect our cadets to be perfect at drill, but I think it is important for the squadron to understand and practice drill and ceremonies, including the Sr Members.

I wouldn't worry about some sort of special hat or insignia. You would do more for your unit by being the model of how the uniform should be worn. Smokie the Bear Hats have their role in basic training and are rarely seen away from Lackland because it is a duty uniform. I think it would be interesting if CAP might someday consider an instructor's badge and the cool one is not the hubcap that is worn now, but the winged one with a torch in the middle that was worn in the 50s and early 60s. One other thing, the Air Force doesn't have DIs, they have TIs for training instructors. By the time you get to tech school, they're STAs for student training assistants.

[krnlpanick]

I disagree, we have many qualified SMs who participate in ES but for one reason or another would not/ cannot do/pass PT, but they still provide essential services during ES missions and other missions we carry out in CAP.[/quote[

Indeed - I absolutely agree with this statement - if you are qualified to perform a physical task in ES should you not also be required to demonstrate that you are capable of fulfilling said task?

I wouldn't worry about some sort of special hat or insignia. You would do more for your unit by being the model of how the uniform should be worn. Smokie the Bear Hats have their role in basic training and are rarely seen away from Lackland because it is a duty uniform. I think it would be interesting if CAP might someday consider an instructor's badge and the cool one is not the hubcap that is worn now, but the winged one with a torch in the middle that was worn in the 50s and early 60s. One other thing, the Air Force doesn't have DIs, they have TIs for training instructors. By the time you get to tech school, they're STAs for student training assistants.

Well said. I realized my err in terminology shortly after starting this thread - back in JROTC we simply referred to him as Sir or Drill Sgt. I think it would be cool to give the CAP instructor's a title of their own personally. Squadron Training Instructor, Drill and Ceremonies Instructor, Cadet Team-building Instructor or something along those lines with a unique insignia or badge would be pretty cool.

My observations thus far are that it appears that cadets are given the drill guide, shown some of the basics by C/NCO or other members of the Squadron and anything more they are expected to learn on their own. They study to the drill tests, rather than demonstrating their ability to drill when given a drill test. This type of setup is counter-intuitive to the primary purposes of drill. Everyone in the unit should be on the same page when it comes to drill, the strongest individual is only as strong as his weakest teammate when you are in a unit - it doesn't matter if one guy knows all the right things to do, if there is one person that doesn't. By altering the way that drill is taught to cadets, we then adapt from a culture of individual achievement to cooperation and peer-instruction, but they won't do it on their own and that should be the role of the instructor.

Again, just my $0.02

[jeders]

All joking aside, I think there should absolutely be PT req's for SMs participating in ES at the very least - there may be, I haven't made it that far in reading yet. If I am not mistaken most first responder types (fireman, cops, emt) all have physical fitness requirements as part of the promotion process as well. If you are qualified to hike up a mountain and rescue an injured climber you [darn] sure well better be able to actually perform that task.

This probably needs it's own thread, and maybe the mods can split out this topic.

I tend to agree with you that SOME ES tasks should have physical fitness requirements. Obviously most mission base staff don't need any physical fitness requirements because the heaviest lifting they do is that extra large bear claw  . If a UDF team member can walk 50 yards on pavement, he's probably good, but a GTM should be required to demonstrate the ability to handle the physical stress and strain that is involved.

[Major Carrales]

In my opinion, the best "uniform distinction" for anyone serving as a "DI" in CAP (and, yes, I know there is no official such position) would be to wear their uniform in it's most refined way to act as an example for others.

As for PT for adults, I think it would be a good idea on a voluteer basis.  I would likely do it, however, making it mandatory would create a backlash.  Some seniors would do some running...for the door.

One time, a long time ago, when we had only3 cadets or so, I asked some seniors to help so they could march in a formation to experience columns and the like.  They helped, but a captain pulled me aside and told me that they were upset about it.  I explain that is wasn't mandatory and I had only called for volunteers.  That said, one person did not show up for three meeting thinking we were gonna start with drill.

I even had some people try to complain about starting with the Pledge. I was willing to compromise and blow "To the Colors" on the bugle if they had religious issues (with "Under God", but they agreed to render the proper respect for the flag.

[bflynn]

Obviously most mission base staff don't need any physical fitness requirements because the heaviest lifting they do is that extra large bear claw.

I'm going to throw out a comment - I know it's in jest, but I personally find the sterotype joke about SMs sitting around eating doughnuts to be insulting and hurtful.  I've never seen the first doughnut, pastry or even bagel at any event, including a two day long sarex, so there isn't any truth for it to be funny about.

Yes, a lot of us need to lose weight.  But if you look around, that isn't limited to CAP and isn't indicative of a fault of SMs.

You can laugh now, but trust me that one day (sooner than you expect) it will be you.

[Major Carrales]

Obviously most mission base staff don't need any physical fitness requirements because the heaviest lifting they do is that extra large bear claw.

I'm going to throw out a comment - I know it's in jest, but I personally find the sterotype joke about SMs sitting around eating doughnuts to be insulting and hurtful.  I've never seen the first doughnut, pastry or even bagel at any event, including a two day long sarex, so there isn't any truth for it to be funny about.

Yes, a lot of us need to lose weight.  But if you look around, that isn't limited to CAP and isn't indicative of a fault of SMs.

You can laugh now, but trust me that one day (sooner than you expect) it will be you.

I tend to agree...most senior members are not lazy slobs.  And so what if there are doughnuts and coffee at events?  They are not the reason people go, they go to service the mission not for free pastries.  Careful all, the things is that Cadet pick up on this sort of rethoric and start to develop attitudes based on it.

[jeders]

Obviously most mission base staff don't need any physical fitness requirements because the heaviest lifting they do is that extra large bear claw.

I'm going to throw out a comment - I know it's in jest, but I personally find the sterotype joke about SMs sitting around eating doughnuts to be insulting and hurtful.  I've never seen the first doughnut, pastry or even bagel at any event, including a two day long sarex, so there isn't any truth for it to be funny about.

Yes, a lot of us need to lose weight.  But if you look around, that isn't limited to CAP and isn't indicative of a fault of SMs.

You can laugh now, but trust me that one day (sooner than you expect) it will be you.

First off, take a chill pill. No insults were taken, and you seem to have completely missed the point. Base personnel don't need PT requirements because there is very little in the way of physical exertion. When I'm working as a branch director or section chief, 98% of the time I'm sitting in a chair. The other 2% is spent walking to the break room to get another doughnut.

[Pylon]

Topic.  If you want to discuss the physical fitness of members, there are existing threads on that you can certainly look through and if necessary, resurrect, but this topics have been beaten to death already.



Now actually on topic, if this is a senior member duty assignment, I don't understand why some sort of special position is being created.  Drill & ceremonies fall under the purview of the Leadership Officer within a squadron.  So if this individual is going to be focusing on strengthening the squadron's drill & ceremonies training, why wouldn't this person be assigned to either the Leadership Officer billet or made an Assistant Leadership Officer?

[lordmonar]

Truth in advertising.

Even 20-1 says that it is not all inclusive.....and while drill and ceremonies fall under the Leadership Officer......if his primary instructor in all things drill is called the  Drill Instructor....where is the harm in that?

So long as it ends with the title.

Let's not be opening a can of worms with suggesting we add the smokey bear to our uniform options.

****Full Disclosure****
In E-service my duty position is Advisor to the Commander.....but I am my squadron's First Sergeant...(no dimond).

[Flying Pig]

Obviously most mission base staff don't need any physical fitness requirements because the heaviest lifting they do is that extra large bear claw.

I'm going to throw out a comment - I know it's in jest, but I personally find the sterotype joke about SMs sitting around eating doughnuts to be insulting and hurtful.  I've never seen the first doughnut, pastry or even bagel at any event, including a two day long sarex, so there isn't any truth for it to be funny about.

Yes, a lot of us need to lose weight.  But if you look around, that isn't limited to CAP and isn't indicative of a fault of SMs.

You can laugh now, but trust me that one day (sooner than you expect) it will be you.

Really? Man...your SARs suck dude.   Every SAR EX, CD Op, or actual SAR Ive ever been on.....that was the best part!  As far as PT standards?   Yeah...whatever.  99% of LE and public EMS agencies dont even have PT standards beyond the academy.

[lordmonar]

Obviously most mission base staff don't need any physical fitness requirements because the heaviest lifting they do is that extra large bear claw.

I'm going to throw out a comment - I know it's in jest, but I personally find the sterotype joke about SMs sitting around eating doughnuts to be insulting and hurtful.  I've never seen the first doughnut, pastry or even bagel at any event, including a two day long sarex, so there isn't any truth for it to be funny about.

Yes, a lot of us need to lose weight.  But if you look around, that isn't limited to CAP and isn't indicative of a fault of SMs.

You can laugh now, but trust me that one day (sooner than you expect) it will be you.

Really?  Every SAR EX, CD Op, or actual SAR Ive ever been on.....that was the best part!  As far as PT standards?   Yeah...whatever.  99% of LE and public EMS agencies dont even have PT standards beyond the academy.

I make it a point to buy a dozen on my way into the mission base.......mmmmmmm doughnuts.

Sometimes we need to just take ourselves a little less serious. 

[Flying Pig]

Obviously most mission base staff don't need any physical fitness requirements because the heaviest lifting they do is that extra large bear claw.

I'm going to throw out a comment - I know it's in jest, but I personally find the sterotype joke about SMs sitting around eating doughnuts to be insulting and hurtful.  I've never seen the first doughnut, pastry or even bagel at any event, including a two day long sarex, so there isn't any truth for it to be funny about.

Yes, a lot of us need to lose weight.  But if you look around, that isn't limited to CAP and isn't indicative of a fault of SMs.

You can laugh now, but trust me that one day (sooner than you expect) it will be you.

Really?  Every SAR EX, CD Op, or actual SAR Ive ever been on.....that was the best part!  As far as PT standards?   Yeah...whatever.  99% of LE and public EMS agencies dont even have PT standards beyond the academy.

I make it a point to buy a dozen on my way into the mission base.......mmmmmmm doughnuts.

Sometimes we need to just take ourselves a little less serious. 

Oh...those were yours?  Sorry.  I guess I owe you about 3 dozen.

[Cool Mace]

I think any senior involved in CP should at least know the basics of drill, and be able to help point out common mistakes in D&C to the staff. cadets will have more respect for seniors that show the initiative to learn what cadets have to. I know I always had more respect for seniors when they could quote something out of the D&C manual and be able to show me how to do it properly.

Now I'm not saying you have to be able to do a counter march, or anything like that. Just be able to recognize a mistakes in drill, and be able to show them how to correct it off on the side, NEVER in front of the flight of course. 

[krnlpanick]

Now actually on topic, if this is a senior member duty assignment, I don't understand why some sort of special position is being created.  Drill & ceremonies fall under the purview of the Leadership Officer within a squadron.  So if this individual is going to be focusing on strengthening the squadron's drill & ceremonies training, why wouldn't this person be assigned to either the Leadership Officer billet or made an Assistant Leadership Officer?

I haven't approached that subject with the Commander yet, and maybe that will ultimately be the correct course of action.

Even 20-1 says that it is not all inclusive.....and while drill and ceremonies fall under the Leadership Officer......if his primary instructor in all things drill is called the  Drill Instructor....where is the harm in that?

So long as it ends with the title.

+1 - I see absolutely no harm in it, and was merely interested if there was even such as designation within CAP already.

Let's not be opening a can of worms with suggesting we add the smokey bear to our uniform options.

Good call! After some of the other threads I have seen, I should have known better than to fall in to that trap!

I think any senior involved in CP should at least know the basics of drill, and be able to help point out common mistakes in D&C to the staff. cadets will have more respect for seniors that show the initiative to learn what cadets have to. I know I always had more respect for seniors when they could quote something out of the D&C manual and be able to show me how to do it properly.

Absolutely 100% in agreement with you on this Cool Mace. I also think that when a Cadet or Composite is invited to MARCH in a parade, they should be able to do so correctly and in step with the rest of the squadron.