DI

[RogueLeader]

I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with anything - I'm making observations when I see potential problems.  Some consider it a fault, some call me a troll for doing it, but it's who I am...I troubleshoot.  I look for problems and solutions.  It's a significant part of my professional job.  I usually try to focus on situations, but sometimes I get dragged down...I'm not perfect.

Sometimes I don't have a solution but I'll write about it anyway...sharing ideas generates more ideas.

Never once have I EVER thought that a unit, military or otherwise, was going to end up oppressing me or anybody else. That includes before I joined cap or the army. Not even in fayett-nam NC. Where dies such a thing come from anyways?

[Eclipse]

Sometimes I don't have a solution but I'll write about it anyway...sharing ideas generates more ideas.

This country has no collective memory of military occupation, nor any reason to fear or disdain the military as your comment implies, therefore your 'idea" appears to be nothing more than a mental reach to try and support an argument which runs counter to one of the tenants of CAP - namely its status as a paramilitary organization which instills discipline and character in its members, especially cadets.

[bflynn]

Thanks for your thoughts...

[abdsp51]

You find potential issues with anything, especially if it's remotely military related.

[lordmonar]

We tried some of that trick marching in the last two weeks of boot - it definately takes a lot of time and practice to make it look good.  Ours was called mass confusion.  Out of columns of three, everyone marched in different directions for a few steps, then did an about face and came back together.  It took a lot of work for us to be able to pull it off.

I'm not sure I'd get a good impression of CAP doing precision marching in a parade - part of the problem with looking more military is that you come across as more militaristic.  It's a worry because the better and more military you are, the more you invoke images of military control of civilians and oppression...which is never good.  We don't want CAP to be seen as a branch of the government ready to tell civilians what to do, that isn't our job.

Is there a way to take the pulse of how the crowds recieves it?  Being on the inside, we really don't know how we're viewed.  Maybe pair it up with other CAP members in polo shirts who can do short questions for people right after the unit passes?  Hand out flyers with a survey request?  If 95% of the people like what the unit does, then it's a good thing, if 95% react negatively then going back to just walking in parades might be a good idea.

a) It's not the job of the military either.
b) Too late to try to keep CAP from looking military....I mean the uniforms, ranks, salutes, where our money comes from, the fact that we are the USAF auxillary.........kind of gives it away.
c) People who think that the government is going to use the military to tell them what to do......already hate the CAP...so why bother about those crackpots?

[bflynn]

You find potential issues with anything, especially if it's remotely military related.

That's not true at all.

I just talk about issues most.  And then I ask questions and continue to ask question / form positions / get reactions so that I can gather data.

Apparently I failed to convey the level of questioning in what I wrote and you took it as my stance.

[abdsp51]

You find potential issues with anything, especially if it's remotely military related.

That's not true at all.

I just talk about issues most.  And then I ask questions and continue to ask question / form positions / get reactions so that I can gather data.

Apparently I failed to convey the level of questioning in what I wrote and you took it as my stance.

Really, it was suggested a mini exhibition demo during a parade you shot it down as an issue.  You feel that military leadership styles are flawed and you claim to be a vet.  You mention that you can not force anyone to do anything in the organization and say it's not right when another member says if they do not want to play by the rules you can leave. You feel that any type of practical joke is disrespectful and hazing. 

If that is not your "stance" then maybe you need to reconsider your written execution of thoughts and improve your articulation to ensure that "your intended message" gets across as you would like it to be received. 

[Flying Pig]

We tried some of that trick marching in the last two weeks of boot - it definately takes a lot of time and practice to make it look good.  Ours was called mass confusion.  Out of columns of three, everyone marched in different directions for a few steps, then did an about face and came back together.  It took a lot of work for us to be able to pull it off.

I'm not sure I'd get a good impression of CAP doing precision marching in a parade - part of the problem with looking more military is that you come across as more militaristic.  It's a worry because the better and more military you are, the more you invoke images of military control of civilians and oppression...which is never good.  We don't want CAP to be seen as a branch of the government ready to tell civilians what to do, that isn't our job.

Is there a way to take the pulse of how the crowds recieves it?  Being on the inside, we really don't know how we're viewed.  Maybe pair it up with other CAP members in polo shirts who can do short questions for people right after the unit passes?  Hand out flyers with a survey request?  If 95% of the people like what the unit does, then it's a good thing, if 95% react negatively then going back to just walking in parades might be a good idea.

a) It's not the job of the military either.
b) Too late to try to keep CAP from looking military....I mean the uniforms, ranks, salutes, where our money comes from, the fact that we are the USAF auxillary.........kind of gives it away.
c) People who think that the government is going to use the military to tell them what to do......already hate the CAP...so why bother about those crackpots?

Wow....As a cadet I went to National Drill Comp 3 times and marched as a Drill Team and a Color Guard in countless parades over the cadet years and never once did the image of the military controlling civilians every come up or cross my mind.  Ive only seen cheering and congratulations in crowds during parades.   That idea you have is a stretch to say the least. 

[bflynn]

You find potential issues with anything, especially if it's remotely military related.

That's not true at all.

I just talk about issues most.  And then I ask questions and continue to ask question / form positions / get reactions so that I can gather data.

Apparently I failed to convey the level of questioning in what I wrote and you took it as my stance.

Really, it was suggested a mini exhibition demo during a parade you shot it down as an issue.  You feel that military leadership styles are flawed and you claim to be a vet.  You mention that you can not force anyone to do anything in the organization and say it's not right when another member says if they do not want to play by the rules you can leave. You feel that any type of practical joke is disrespectful and hazing. 

If that is not your "stance" then maybe you need to reconsider your written execution of thoughts and improve your articulation to ensure that "your intended message" gets across as you would like it to be received.

Ok, you've misunderstood me.  As the initiator of the communciations, I accept the fault in not being clear.  I always find writing to be a challenge.

It was not my intention to shoot down anything especially as I cannot control anyone - individual liberty is (or used to be) a cornerstone of our society.  I saw a concern and expressed that concern, including continuing the conversation to get feedback.  Ultimately it is that squadron that will decide if it works for them and I'm looking forward to see if what I believe (but do not know) is correct or incorrect.

I did not say that military style leadership is flawed.  Military leadership is great for leading troops into combat.  I said that it was flawed to use military style leadership styles in situations when volunteers can walk out the door.  In the Navy, if we'd had that option to just leave, there are 100 times over that every member of our crew would have walked away.  It's much harder to lead people when you cannot have them flogged for disobeying.  Effectively I'm saying that a softer approach is required.  There are elements of military leadership that work very well, but you need to recognize which components are present and which are missing.

My observation that people make choices to follow is just an extension of my observiations of using military style leadership plus my believe in invidual liberty.  Your power of compelling followership starts and ends with the ability to show someone the door.  I consider firing someone (aka 2b) to be the most severe form of leadership failure.  Therefore, your power of compelling followership is non-existent.  Lacking that power of legal compulsion, you cannot even practice everything that is involved with military leadership except by taking steps that show failed leadership.  That's a significant difference that deserves to be highlighted. 

Practical jokes and hazing IS disrespectful.  I'll allow that if you know someone really well, then maybe you know how they'll react and you can get into playing jokes with them.  But what if you're wrong?  Different people react differently.  Are you ready to bet your reputation on how well you know someone?  How would you feel to complete a practical joke only to realize that your target was not only not amused, but that you just destroyed a friendship?  Beyond that, it just is not acceptable in the military (or anywhere else) to haze...period, no exceptions.  Any military commander that is tolerating it is risking his career.

You're free to disagree with any of these - after all, I cannot control you, I can only influence you into doing what is best for the organization.

Last - I do not claim to be veteran, I am one.  Come meet me in NC and I'll show you my DD-214.  Out of everything your wrote, this is the only one that I consider to be disrespectful.

[abdsp51]

I think that is the first tine you have managed to effectively communicate anything. 

You want to consider it disrespectful that I challenged your claim be my guest.  Your postings indicate something else and I call it like I see it.

And I will disagree that firing someone is an example of failed leadership.  Firing, 2bing or which ever term you want to use is a tool plain and simple and there are plenty of violations that warrant that course of action.  Sorry but your off base on that and there numerous instances that can be cited.

And we are a paramilitary organization so military leadership has its place in our organization.  Is it a catch all cure all no but it is proven to be successful outside of combat.

On the pratical joking and hazing aspect to a degree I will agree with you on but I will disagree that the are one and the same.  I joke with those I know and those I know will react to it as is a joke. 

And you're right you can't control what I do and if you think about it you can hardly even influence me.  I present my thoughts and ideas to my unit all the time if they implement ok if not life goes on.

[bflynn]

Your postings indicate something else and I call it like I see it.

Am I understanding this correctly?  You don't like what I say or how I write, so you question whether I was ever in the military?

Do you realize how completely bizarre that comes across?

[krnlpanick]

On the subject of Military Style Leadership

I pledge that I will serve faithfully in the Civil Air Patrol Cadet Program, and that I will attend meetings regularly, participate actively in unit activities, obey my officers, wear my uniform properly, and advance my education and training rapidly to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state, and nation.

...
I agree to abide by the decisions of those in authority of the Civil Air Patrol
...

I really don't think it can be more clear than it already is - when you become a member you are agreeing to adhere to the decisions of your superiors.

As has been mentioned many many times that I have seen, CAP is a Paramilitary Organization, funded and supported as a part of the United States Air Force Family, an Auxiliary Branch of the USAF. Like all Paramilitary Organizations, the leadership structure is based on military organizational structure.

As I see it the primary problem with CAP right now is that there are corporatists who are dead-set on adapting the organization to fit there ideas by drawing further seperation between Civil Air Patrol and the military for one reason or another. I could go off for hours on the subject of trying to change the organization to fit your desires rather than finding an organization that is more closely in-line with your desires but I will abstain from doing so at this time.

In the end it is kind of like trying to join the NRA as a means to outlaw guns - it won't work and the sooner we recognize that the better off we will be as an organization.

We have 3 missions in Civil Air Patrol
   * Cadet Programs
   * Aerospace Education
   * Emergency Services

Of those missions all 3 are directly supported by the USAF in one way or another, so let's move past this discussion please.

On the subject of firing someone being a sign of poor leadership I contest that firing one person from a position is not a sign of poor leadership, firing five people from one position is absolutely a sign of poor leadership.  However, things in real life are not so black and white - using any one piece of data as the sole criteria for judging an individuals performance is a proven ineffective means of measurement.

[Ned]

  It's much harder to lead people when you cannot have them flogged for disobeying.  Effectively I'm saying that a softer approach is required. 

Strong non-concur. 

As a former Infantry officer, I can honestly say I never once heard anything remotely like "I order you to do X, and if you do not obey the full weight of the UCMJ will fall upon you."

Any military officer that relies on flogging / confinement / fines / reduction in rank as a primary leadership tool has failed miserably as an leader.  I commanded a detachment, an MP company, and a large joint task force and never once referenced punishment when giving orders and guidance.  Even when people were shooting at us.

Sure, I gave out my fair share of Article 15s during the six years or so I was in command of the various units.  For administrative stuff like AWOL, missing movement, negligent discharge of a firearm, or false statements. 

Indeed, I would suggest that leadership is leadership, whether in a CAP or AD environment.  The Army's 11 Principles of Leadership seem apt:

• Know Yourself and Seek Self Improvement
  
• Be Technically Proficient
  
• Seek Responsibility and Take Responsibility for Your Actions
  
• Make Sound and Timely Decisions
  
• Set the Example
  
• Know Your Troops and Look Out for Their Well-Being
  
• Keep Your Followers Informed
  
• Develop a Sense of Responsibility In Your Followers
  
• Ensure that Each Task is Understood, Supervised, and Accomplished
  
• Build a Team
  
• Employ Your Team in Accordance With Its Capabilities.

 

And resonate just as strongly in CAP as they did for me in the Army.

(And notice that neither "flogging" nor any reference to negative UCMJ consequences appear in the list.)

[In a CAP context, y]our power of compelling followership starts and ends with the ability to show someone the door.  I consider firing someone (aka 2b) to be the most severe form of leadership failure.  Therefore, your power of compelling followership is non-existent.  Lacking that power of legal compulsion, you cannot even practice everything that is involved with military leadership except by taking steps that show failed leadership.  That's a significant difference that deserves to be highlighted.

I'm sorry your Navy experience was apparently so negative.  But my "power" in compelling followership in CAP is pretty much the same as it was in the military - shared ethics, common vision, setting the example, clear guidance, and any meager pursuasive powers I can muster.  And if a unusual indvidual cannot be pursuaded to follow, then adminstrative sanctions are available.  It was rare in the military, and it is rare in CAP.

Thank you for your service in the armed forces and in CAP.  They are genuinely appreciated.

Ned Lee
Fellow Veteran

[krnlpanick]

^ Well spoken Sir!

[Flying Pig]

I spent 8 yrs in the Marine infantry from E-1 to E-5.  Where I was people excelled because they wanted to as cheesy as that sounds.  There were always quotas to schools up for grabs, meritorious promotions allotted, special units people wanted in to.  Yes life sucked sometimes, and most of us grumbled about getting out but in reality I dont think most of us would have if given the chance.  Heck.....I even re enlisted! 

And then I meet people who genuinely hated every day of it.   But I will say I dont think Ive ever heard an officer or senior enlisted threaten "Do this or else...."  If it ever got to that point (at least in the units I was in) you were finished anyway

[abdsp51]

Your postings indicate something else and I call it like I see it.

Am I understanding this correctly?  You don't like what I say or how I write, so you question whether I was ever in the military?

Do you realize how completely bizarre that comes across?

Your anti military postings and rants about how poor military leadeship is leads one to believe you either

a) are majorly disgruntled
b) haven't served very long
c) never attended pme
D) combination of the above

Now this could be the case or simply that you either did not articulate it clearly enough. 
Take offense and feel slighted if you must, but having not met you in person and based off your postings it is how I see it.

[lordmonar]

You know in all my 22 years in the USAF......I never had to resort to the "you will do this or you will go to jail" argument.

Yes....it was there in the tool box if I needed it.....and yes it was in the back of the mind of everyone I supervised.....but it most certainly was not my #1 leadership tool.

Since I left the USAF and started life as a blood sucking contractor......I use the same leadership style I used on active duty.....and I have not lost very many people.

I don't know about your military experince....but it seems to be very different than mine.

[usafcap1]

Also note that SM's are not required to do drill.  Not saying that its a bad idea, just not required by regs.  Provided that any SM does drill, be aware of how you correct them. If we can't go fmj, you can't either.

Aren't SM's required to do drill once a year?

[SarDragon]

Also note that SM's are not required to do drill.  Not saying that its a bad idea, just not required by regs.  Provided that any SM does drill, be aware of how you correct them. If we can't go fmj, you can't either.

Aren't SM's required to do drill once a year?

And exactly where did you get that idea?

[RogueLeader]

Also note that SM's are not required to do drill.  Not saying that its a bad idea, just not required by regs.  Provided that any SM does drill, be aware of how you correct them. If we can't go fmj, you can't either.

Aren't SM's required to do drill once a year?

Short answer:  no.