DI

[bflynn]

The simple truth is, CAP (SMs) cannot be a more military organization because members won't support it.  I suppose everyone else could just get up and go somewhere else.  But who would do the work then?

Maybe members of your flying club squadron won't support it, but that doesn't make it true everywhere.

Oh, wait a minute, I see.  You're having a different discussion than I am.

I'm talking about level and depth of military involvement.  We all agree to a certain level.  Enough people disagree about it being more military, so it is not more military.

I've ephasized the word more there twice.  I'm drawing an observation about the level and a somewhat self-proving statement.  If members supported us being more military, it would happen.  It does not happen, therefore members must not support it.  If senior members wanted to do drill, then we would drill.  If we wanted to get up at 5am and do PT, then it would happen. 

If someone has a personal wish that we do these things, then they need to convince the membership at large that it is valuable...although I don't know what that value could be.

[CAP4117]

I think you are assuming that CAP functions more democratically than it actually does. Just because we don't do something doesn't mean the majority of the members don't want to do it.

[bflynn]

No, there's no democracy to it.

If you read back through the thread, you'd see that I was recognizing the volunteer aspect of CAP and basically saying that you can only push volunteers so far before they give up on you.

[johnnyb47]

I think the shark got jumped somewhere around page 4 on this one.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I think the shark got jumped somewhere around page 4 on this one.

If not before.

This thread, like so many, uniform or otherwise, illustrates the division in CAP between those who long for the former days of CAP, when we were "more military" (whatever construction you want to put on that term is up to you) and those on the corporatist side today, who largely see the "military" aspect as "cadets only" and seniors as "ES/flying/ES/flying/ES/flying" and don't want to be bothered with all the paramilitary aspects: "just gimme my golf shirt and grey slacks."  As well, they tend to want to leave AE to the cadet side.

I wonder if those divisions are becoming irreconcilable.  CT is CT and people here (myself included) have their "unique" personalities, but really we on CT are a semi-random sampling of CAP opinions.

I don't think that one's squadron is even as good an indicator as CT is of those opinions.  People tend to gravitate to others who think like them.  Unless you do what I foolishly did, and spend two years in a flying club senior squadron as a non-pilot fish-out-of-water, if you don't like the paramilitary aspects of CAP, you'll probably gravitate toward a squadron whose culture is like that, and vice versa.  Here on CT there's no shortage of differing opinions, that's for sure...

[johnnyb47]

I think we need to factor in the age of the internet and how readily available CAP gossip was prior to when Al Gore created it.
If not for the web we would know very little about CAP outside of our own squadrons, groups and wings.
Perhaps the division between the groups in CAP only appears to be growing because we have the ability to read about it online. We all know what the regulations say. 25 years ago we had very little idea about how they were being interpreted from one side of the country to the other. Now we can see everyone's opinion on new regs 30 seconds before the reg is even published!

Of course I could be wrong. I'm still kind of new.

[Eclipse]

If not for the web we would know very little about CAP outside of our own squadrons, groups and wings.

There's very little the average member needs to know outside their unit.  CAP is not a democracy, and there's not a lot of need for "informed choice" in regards to situations a member has no involvement or input in.  If anything, the immediacies of information leads to the TMZ-culture to no real benefit.

It also leads to this culture-wide phenomenon where "everyone and every idea is equal..." which we all know is not remotely the case.

What is happening in your unit, for the most part, is all the average member needs to know - wing at the most, and then only if the wing is providing some
framework and goals outside the standard.  If your unit is not involved in something you want to do, or your commander is not a good leader, knowing the latest scoops on NB discussions won't change that situation.

[johnnyb47]

If not for the web we would know very little about CAP outside of our own squadrons, groups and wings.

There's very little the average member needs to know outside their unit.  CAP is not a democracy, and there's not a lot of need for "informed choice" in regards to situations a member has no involvement or input in.  If anything, the immediacies of information leads to the TMZ-culture to no real benefit.

It also leads to this culture-wide phenomenon where "every and every idea is equal..." which we all no is not remotely the case.

I think you may have taken that a bit out of context, Eclipse. I just meant that, thanks to our friend the "WWW", we now have greater access to information (read: Opinion and conjecture) than ever before.... whether we wanted it or not.
Because of THAT it may seems as though the divide in CAP is growing at an alarming rate.
Once again though, my point is based on what I've seen in my short time as a member.

[Eclipse]

Roger - roger.

I don't think there's much different today than 20 years ago.  I can tell you from experience very little has changed the last ten years.

[BrannG]

I will be instructing both Cadets and Sr. Members on proper drill

Wait.. you mean Senior Members will actually drill and practice customs and protocol?

Me Likes! We need more of this in my option, remember people! LEAD BY EXAMPLE!

[krnlpanick]

Wait.. you mean Senior Members will actually drill and practice customs and protocol?

Me Likes! We need more of this in my option, remember people! LEAD BY EXAMPLE!

That's kind of where I was headed

[bflynn]

I'll be interested to hear how this turns out - please keep us informed?

[krnlpanick]

Will do - we have our first D&C focused meeting on 5 June in preparation for a parade we have been asked to participate in on 8 June.

The practice will begin with an inspection by our C/1Sgt observed by the CC and Myself.

I have identified 5 key areas that the cadets need to focus on, my plan is to have each of the element leaders work on each task with their element individually for 5-10 mins each. Once they have made it through each, they will come back and practice as wings for 5-10 minutes using all of the skills the element leaders worked on. Finally, the entire squadron will drill together as a single unit for 5-10 minutes.

While the cadets are working the Seniors will have inspection and we will be reviewing our own drill to make sure we are all sharp for the parade.

I hope to wrap up the meeting with a short 2-3 minute combined drill including the entire squadron, Cadets and Senior Members.

I will come back with a portmortem next Wednesday

[coudano]

I'm a big fan of train like you fight.

Going to march in a parade?
Get a long driveway or street, and practice parade marching.

Get a car in front, to prented to be a stupidly slow float.  Stopping and going a lot.  And going slow.
Put your formation behind it and see how it deals.
Mark Time?  Halt?

I always envisioned a really cool thing to do in parades that stop a lot;
have your marching unit 'explode' into little 4 or 6 person elements (like 2x2) and just flank around, to the rear, whatever, and then when the parade starts moving again, get back to where they go and forward march with the parade.  Sort of the marching equivalent of a chinese fire drill (though i guess you would get back in the same place you got out).  I always thought the crowd would enjoy something like that, possibly impress a few potential recruits.

Never really got around to trying it though...


Can your unit as a whole execute either a 4 element column right/left? depending on the parade route?
Or a right/left turn if you are (probably not, but not impossible) in mass?
Can people stand up on their feet for a half hour without fainting?

[krnlpanick]

That is an awesome idea! Unfortunately, right now I am more concerned about them getting the basics down, keeping cadence, and looking sharp. Also we are marching as an attachment to another squadron so with no time to practice as a joint squadron I wouldn't want to attempt something like that for this run. We will probably have the squadrons go to parade rest when there are delays in the parade, possibly have the Color Guard's do something a little more fancy.

[bflynn]

We tried some of that trick marching in the last two weeks of boot - it definately takes a lot of time and practice to make it look good.  Ours was called mass confusion.  Out of columns of three, everyone marched in different directions for a few steps, then did an about face and came back together.  It took a lot of work for us to be able to pull it off.

I'm not sure I'd get a good impression of CAP doing precision marching in a parade - part of the problem with looking more military is that you come across as more militaristic.  It's a worry because the better and more military you are, the more you invoke images of military control of civilians and oppression...which is never good.  We don't want CAP to be seen as a branch of the government ready to tell civilians what to do, that isn't our job.

Is there a way to take the pulse of how the crowds recieves it?  Being on the inside, we really don't know how we're viewed.  Maybe pair it up with other CAP members in polo shirts who can do short questions for people right after the unit passes?  Hand out flyers with a survey request?  If 95% of the people like what the unit does, then it's a good thing, if 95% react negatively then going back to just walking in parades might be a good idea.

[Eclipse]

I'm not sure I'd get a good impression of CAP doing precision marching in a parade - part of the problem with looking more military is that you come across as more militaristic.  It's a worry because the better and more military you are, the more you invoke images of military control of civilians and oppression...which is never good.  We don't want CAP to be seen as a branch of the government ready to tell civilians what to do, that isn't our job.

No one with a lick of common sense would see cadets marching in a parade and connect that to thinking CAP is a branch of government that is ready to tell civilians what to do.

They either appreciate it for the effort and discipline, or they go and buy another snow cone.  To try and even make the insinuation is ridiculous.

[bflynn]

No one with a lick of common sense would see cadets marching in a parade and connect that to thinking CAP is a branch of government that is ready to tell civilians what to do.

I don't know - I think that the view from the inside necessarily negates knowing the view from the outside.

But I didn't say that merely marching was the trigger - it is being more military.  The more perfect the unit is, the better is it, the worse the impact.  It reminds me of films of russian and wwii german units marching in parades; every step perfect, every uniform exactly alike, etc. 

I could be wrong.  I think neither one of us knows for certain because we're not them.

[krnlpanick]

BFlynn, while I am trying to understand where you are coming from here - I think there is still a severe difference of opinion on the matter, especially as it relates to Cadets. Let's just agree to disagree on this matter for now as it has been debated ad nauseum in this thread already.

That being said, I kind of like the idea of having people in the audience asking what they think - we also have a booth at the festival associated with the parade, so perhaps some questionnaires or good old fashioned talking with people will give us an idea on how we did.

[bflynn]

I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with anything - I'm making observations when I see potential problems.  Some consider it a fault, some call me a troll for doing it, but it's who I am...I troubleshoot.  I look for problems and solutions.  It's a significant part of my professional job.  I usually try to focus on situations, but sometimes I get dragged down...I'm not perfect.

Sometimes I don't have a solution but I'll write about it anyway...sharing ideas generates more ideas.