ES/Ground Team can wear whatever in the field?

[whatevah]

It makes sense to me too - where can I get one?

It'll be available soon when the CAPTalk HSLD online stores goes "live" sometime next month.  Currently only our "donut club" members have access to the store.

[PHall]

Looks like something you would see highway workers wearing. Try the stores that sell safety equipment to highway/construction workers.
Probably can find a pretty good selection of safety vests there too!

[Major Lord]

You can find these hats at any of the haberdashery's in San Francisco's Castro District.

Major Lord

[jks19714]

Reminds me of some of the headgear I saw when speaking at Berkeley back in the day.  (God, was I glad to return to the East Coast!  :angel:)

[rustyjeeper]

May I propose this as the official Ground Team High-Speed Low-Drag Headgear?


High visibility in all conditions and angles, features sun protection for neck/ears that traditional BDU caps and baseball caps ignore, and provides hot-weather ventilation via mesh panels around the reflective band.

(remind me to get a tongue-in-cheek smiley)

I got no problem with that hat at all!

100% makes pefect sense.

I have one in my flight survival kit!

It makes sense to me too - where can I get one?

Ebay, around five bucks..

[bflynn]

May I propose this as the official Ground Team High-Speed Low-Drag Headgear?


High visibility in all conditions and angles, features sun protection for neck/ears that traditional BDU caps and baseball caps ignore, and provides hot-weather ventilation via mesh panels around the reflective band.

(remind me to get a tongue-in-cheek smiley)

Posting to an old thread, but since this is a continuation of the same topic, I thought this was the best place to put it. 

I've been looking at the headgear that was suggested here, but not really liking the price.  Last night we went to dinner at Lunker's in Edwardsburg, MI and it suddenly occurred to me (duh!) that a lot of hunting gear is perfect for emergency survival kits.  I picked up two blaze orange watch caps for $3 each.  There's no sun brim, but I'll take the warmth over the sun protection right now.

Thought for the day - if you're looking for emergency gear clothing, hunting supplies are a good choice.  This might be obvious to some, but I never thought of it.

[lordmonar]

A regular military style boonie cap in hunter orange is also fairly cheap....I picked one up at my local surplus store for abour $10 IIRC.

It does not have the reflective tape or the fancy mesh.....but it works.....I keep it in my flight surivival kit.

[Garibaldi]

What I remember of "optional" uniforms/accoutrements/hats is this:

The Wing commander may designate a special hat for use in ES missions.

The Blue Beret, earned at the EAA mission at Oskosh, can only be worn at the EAA activity. This may have changed.

BDUs are a CAP uniform and as such, if a CAP member participating in an ES mission gets hurt during the mission and is NOT wearing a uniform, the Air Force is not bound to cover said member under CAP/USAF insurance.

As far as your local unit training goes, I would guess it's up to the ES officer to make that call. I'd for sure wear BDUs on an actual mission or Wing training exercise, that way your hiney is covered if you get hurt. Besides, some Wing Dings get a little antsy in the pantsy if you show up wearing whatever you scrounged off the floor to a misison.

[Eclipse]

The blue beret situation has changed.

ES Officers have no command authority to make these kinds of decisions.

[flyguync]

http://www.prosafetysupplies.com/product/ERBS230O/ERB-S230-Class-3-Hi-Viz-Orange-Boonie-Hat.html

[Garibaldi]

The blue beret situation has changed.

ES Officers have no command authority to make these kinds of decisions.

No, but it is the responsibility for the ES officer to ensure that everyone is covered under regs when participating in missions or training exercises. Uniform deviations for ES are covered by regs at either the wing or national level. I'd heard that the NBB beret issue has been changed at some point. I firmly believe that it's the duty of every member to set an example to the public at large and that's what I teach my GT trainees, and if you have a rag-tag bunch of kids and adults running around claiming to be CAP members, it kinda puts a bad taste in everyone's mouth. However, having said that, I also believe that if you're out someplace in the woods and it's 30 degrees and all you have is your uniform and a bright pink warm coat, I'd put on the coat if I were cold. Safety trumps uniformity where personal health is concerned.

[Eclipse]

It is the responsibility of local supervisors such as Ground Team leaders and Mission Pilots to insure compliance with regulations.

Staff Officers are program managers, nothing more, nothing less, they have no authority to enforce anything.

[Garibaldi]

It is the responsibility of local supervisors such as Ground Team leaders and Mission Pilots to insure compliance with regulations.

Staff Officers are program managers, nothing more, nothing less, they have no authority to enforce anything.

Yes, the GTL and MP is/are responsible for that, but who trains them? Who sets policy for the ES mission at the unit level, while we're on the subject?

[Eclipse]

It is the responsibility of local supervisors such as Ground Team leaders and Mission Pilots to insure compliance with regulations.

Staff Officers are program managers, nothing more, nothing less, they have no authority to enforce anything.

Yes, the GTL and MP is/are responsible for that, but who trains them?

Whomever is qualified to impart the knowledge.  The DOS is responsible for coordinating the plans, but is certainly not expected to
be the hands-on trainer. He may well not even be qualified in a given area.

Who sets policy for the ES mission at the unit level, while we're on the subject?

Only Commanders can set policy, regardless of echelon.

[arajca]

It is the responsibility of local supervisors such as Ground Team leaders and Mission Pilots to insure compliance with regulations.

Staff Officers are program managers, nothing more, nothing less, they have no authority to enforce anything.

Yes, the GTL and MP is/are responsible for that, but who trains them? Who sets policy for the ES mission at the unit level, while we're on the subject?

1. Qualified trainers. Who may or may not be unit ESOs. Many are not.
2. Not the ESO. Commanders set unit policy. Staff officer give input and make recommendations, which the commander may or may not accept, but staff officers do not make policy.

[RADIOMAN015]

I think anything we wear in the field should clearly identify our organization "Civil Air Patrol".  Right now we do have to change to the news ANSI 2 standard reflective vests.

Check out Vanguard's (I hate to give them a plug :angel:) website for this safety vest:

[ http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-orange-reflective-vest-ansi-class-ii-approved-p-7457.html  [/url]

$20.00 and it clearly shows Civil Air Patrol on it.

I think that in the field a "field uniform" needs to be worn, HOWEVER, the reality of CAP volunteers is that everyone doesn't necessarily have the military looking boots or jackets for every potential weather condition.  So one might have to wear full rain gear (including pants), or even some sort of severe cold weather pants/jacket as well as even a different type of headgear.    Just seems to me that the orange vest above could be our primary ID during ground field type operations regardless of what is worn underneath that vest

The AF (as well as IC's) is more concerned with CAP performing the assigned mission effectively, efficiently, safely, and successfully.  The uniform aspect is not their primary concern, that seems to be more of a CAP concern. 

RM       

[Eclipse]

The AF (as well as IC's) is more concerned with CAP performing the assigned mission effectively, efficiently, safely, and successfully.  The uniform aspect is not their primary concern, that seems to be more of a CAP concern. 

Cite please.

[lordmonar]

I have still yet to see something from NHQ that we do in fact have to have ANSI 2 vests.

I would support that ES teams should be as uniform as possible....and if that means mandateing "this vest" over all others....whether it has CAP on it or not.........I would support that.

Likewise I would support mandating a "universal head gear".......a hunter orange boonie cap.....for all ground operations....in liue of a ANSI vests.....as the whole vest concept gets pretty stupid when you put on your back pack/LBV/Cammel back over the stupid vest.  Also I find that even open weave vests make it very hot and get in the way of using and getting to your equipment.

[Eclipse]

I have still yet to see something from NHQ that we do in fact have to have ANSI 2 vests.

Only required when working on or near a Federal Highway today, required by Oct 2012 for all.

Though considering that the below asserts a sundown on a uniform item and will require
some expenditure by all affected members, NHQ hasn't really made much about it.  Perhaps it
was assumed back in June 2010 / March 2011 that we'd have a consolidated, current uniform
reg by Oct 2012 (maybe we will).

CAPR 62-1 March 2011

d. ANSI and non-ANSI compliance standards are as follows:
is approved for wear as the outermost garment over the corporate
uniform only and must meet ANSI Class 2 or 3 standards as noted on the ANSI classification tag
which must be affixed to the garment.  Examples of safety apparel are coats, jackets, rainwear,
and may include orange or lime green reflective pants in conjunction with upper-body wear.

(1) ANSI compliant  – Safety Vests or Safety Apparel must meet the American
National Standards Institute, Inc (ANSI) Class 2 or Class 3 requirements.  This category is
required anytime a  member's duties may place them within the right-of-way of Federal-aid
highways; such as directing traffic, investigating crashes, handling lane closures, obstructed
roadways, and disasters within the right-of-way of a Federal-aid highway.

(2) Non-ANSI compliant  – Safety Vests only, require reflectivity front and back. 
This category is allowed anytime a member's duties do not require ANSI compliant vests in
accordance with the definition of ANSI compliant requirements above.  By October 1, 2012, all
safety vests and safety apparel will be required to meet ANSI Class 2 or 3 visibility and
reflectivity standards.

e. Members working in an official capacity are authorized to wear ANSI Class 2 or 3
safety vests or safety apparel with the mission position duty title logoed on their safety vests or
safety apparel to ensure  position  identity during CAP sponsored  events.  Additionally, during
non-mission related activities the  Safety officers working in an official safety capacity are
authorized to wear ANSI Class 2 or 3 safety vests or safety apparel with the words "safety" or
"safety officer" logoed on their safety vests or safety apparel to ensure identity during CAP
sponsored events. 

[RADIOMAN015]

I have still yet to see something from NHQ that we do in fact have to have ANSI 2 vests.

I would support that ES teams should be as uniform as possible....and if that means mandateing "this vest" over all others....whether it has CAP on it or not.........I would support that.

Likewise I would support mandating a "universal head gear".......a hunter orange boonie cap.....for all ground operations....in liue of a ANSI vests.....as the whole vest concept gets pretty stupid when you put on your back pack/LBV/Cammel back over the stupid vest.  Also I find that even open weave vests make it very hot and get in the way of using and getting to your equipment.

Actually it's likely a safety violation IF the equipment covers the vest from being seen on someone's back.  The purpose of the vest is to ensure high visibility, primary on highways, but during hunting season one would also need this to be visible in order to ensure individual safety.   Maybe someone could come up with a simple orange cloth/plastic material with reflective material that could be easily placed on the back/camel pack, perhaps with velcro type fastener

I also like the idea of the orange boonie hat (and orange watch cap for winter) BUT I would add the requirement for the CAP Emergency Services patch (e.g. the Dog one) also be placed on the front of the hat) to ensure identification of Civil Air Patrol Emergency Services.

BTW it appears that Vanguard might be out of stock on the Orange vest with the CAP on it.

RM