New 39-1 ICL today

[Eclipse]

It's very different, and generally for the purposes of uniformity.

[MIKE]

I see it differently... That which is not required is optional.  You may not be required to wear that which is optional, but a commander may also restrict the wear of optional items for purposes of uniformity, to include patches, badges etc.

[Eclipse]

I see it differently... That which is not required is optional.  You may not be required to wear that which is optional, but a commander may also restrict the wear of optional items for purposes of uniformity, to include patches, badges etc.

Exactly - we do it with ribbons, cords, even jackets.  Everyone in blues has to have a flight cap, but not everyone has a wheel cap, so you set the UOD as flight cap so everyone is uniform.  (etc.)

[MSG Mac]

Re: Wing Patchs>

Whose option as to whether to wearit. Mine or the Commanders? When this change first came out, it was immediately followed by many Wing Commanders deciding that the Wing patch  was required as his option. If the intent is to ditch Wing Patches, just do it!!
 

[NCRblues]

Wait, so you all restrict your members on what APRROVED cap patches they can wear???

That's crazy... talk about taking your command a little over the top... I mean come on, they are authorized patches.

I'm all for commanders limiting what hat, or what style dress uniform for the day...but to limit what patches a SM puts on his or her uniform is crazy. They have earned it, a higher command than you says they can wear it....

[Eclipse]

Whose option as to whether to wearit. Mine or the Commanders?

It is optional at the member's discretion unless the wing, or lower, has a properly approved supplement to 39-1.

I've never personally understood why they were made optional.  I can understand removing them from blues, but there was really no reason to change the field uniforms.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Whether the commander can rule against berets, why would you want to? It's an earned item just as a patch is. People pay good money to teavel to NBB and they deserve to wear their beret when they comlplete the. Course. If you hate the beret, think about something you do like and think how you would feel being told that you can't wear it even though the reg says that you can and you earned it. You may not like he beret and you may not like the ranger tabs, but they ate earned, and not all that easily either.

[Eclipse]

Whether the commander can rule against berets, why would you want to?

Berets are inappropriate for field wear - everyone but our membership seems to understand that.

Given certain weather circumstances, a beret may be the least effective hat you can wear, but many members,
especially cadets, would rather spend a day in the ER treating frostbite on their ears than give up their beret.

Berets break the uniformity of group photographs.

The differential engendered by a beret, may be detrimental to training environments such as an encampment, etc.

[FlyTiger77]

Define "correctly" in regards to the beret - just because one service wears it "thusly", does not define how another service should wear it.

Having seen quite a few berets worn by members of both the US Army and the US Air Force, I think I am safe in saying that neither wears theirs as depicted in the photo in the ICL. Now, if we are talking about the British Army and Air Force...

It would be unusual (but not beyond the realm of possibility) for CAP to consciously depart from the normal accepted practice of the US military, but I guess it could be done.

[Spaceman3750]

Wait, so you all restrict your members on what APRROVED cap patches they can wear???

That's crazy... talk about taking your command a little over the top... I mean come on, they are authorized patches.

I'm all for commanders limiting what hat, or what style dress uniform for the day...but to limit what patches a SM puts on his or her uniform is crazy. They have earned it, a higher command than you says they can wear it....

+1

Local commanders don't get to countermand regulation because they don't like X.

[Pylon]

Wait, so you all restrict your members on what APRROVED cap patches they can wear???

That's crazy... talk about taking your command a little over the top... I mean come on, they are authorized patches.

I'm all for commanders limiting what hat, or what style dress uniform for the day...but to limit what patches a SM puts on his or her uniform is crazy. They have earned it, a higher command than you says they can wear it....

+1

Local commanders don't get to countermand regulation because they don't like X.

Ah, but they can.  Commanders can and do set the UOD for the activity.  We see this stuff all the time, but perhaps don't realize it.  A prominent example: The commander for COS sets the UOD as blues with no ribbons.  Ribbons are fully authorized for those cadet officers, but the commander of the activity is directing that, for uniformity purposes, none of them will wear any at the activity on their blues shirts. Ribbons are no different than patches, tabs, headgear, etc.  They're optional attachments to the uniform.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

With all this talk about limiting patches:

Umm...maybe I'm taking things out of context here, but does that mean I can wear one of these on my flight suit/jacket right sleeve?



That's just an example that I found in the Civil Air Patrol section on Evilbay.  I don't actually own it.

[lordmonar]

Wait, so you all restrict your members on what APRROVED cap patches they can wear???

That's crazy... talk about taking your command a little over the top... I mean come on, they are authorized patches.

I'm all for commanders limiting what hat, or what style dress uniform for the day...but to limit what patches a SM puts on his or her uniform is crazy. They have earned it, a higher command than you says they can wear it....

+1

Local commanders don't get to countermand regulation because they don't like X.

If the wing/group/unit commander says no optional patches on the flight suit...then that is within his/her authority.

Just like head gear.  39-1 authorises patrol caps as well as ball caps for the BDU's and BBDU's.......so if your unit has ball caps....the unit commander can say....everyone will ball caps.....even though patrol caps are authorised.

Even though the blue beret is authorised...the unit command can say no berets.
Even though the ES patch/model rocketry/comm patches are authorised....the commander can mandate the squadron unit patch or nothing at all.

Is this a good idea?  Maybe/maybe not.....but it up to the commander and his/her chain of command to determine.

[NCRblues]

Wait, so you all restrict your members on what APRROVED cap patches they can wear???

That's crazy... talk about taking your command a little over the top... I mean come on, they are authorized patches.

I'm all for commanders limiting what hat, or what style dress uniform for the day...but to limit what patches a SM puts on his or her uniform is crazy. They have earned it, a higher command than you says they can wear it....

+1

Local commanders don't get to countermand regulation because they don't like X.

Ah, but they can.  Commanders can and do set the UOD for the activity.  We see this stuff all the time, but perhaps don't realize it.  A prominent example: The commander for COS sets the UOD as blues with no ribbons.  Ribbons are fully authorized for those cadet officers, but the commander of the activity is directing that, for uniformity purposes, none of them will wear any at the activity on their blues shirts. Ribbons are no different than patches, tabs, headgear, etc.  They're optional attachments to the uniform.

Uh, no...

A pilot who has GTL and wings on can not be made to take off his GTL badge on the BDUs because a random activity director or commander does not like GT things... sorry does not work that way. National, including everyone's boss, the national commander says I can wear those patches on my BDU's to all events.

Feel free to set the uniform of the day. Change the ribbons on or off, that's fine, but you can not force a member to rip off a patch that is sewn onto BDUs because you believe you are king of your little CAP country and that is setting a UNIFORM of the day....

[Pylon]

What do you think makes patches a different class of optional uniform items that differentiates them from ribbons, cords, headgear and other optional appurtenances that commanders already regularly exercise authority over?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

What do you think makes patches a different class of optional uniform items that differentiates them from ribbons, cords, headgear and other optional appurtenances that commanders already regularly exercise authority over?

Have you ever been told that you can't wear your wings? I doubt it, but if so, then that sucks, it really does. But it would be exactly what you are putting out, that if you got the wild hair to, you would tell everyone in your command that they can't wear their badges and awards. I just really hope you reconsider your stance on what everyone has worked to get, even your own wings are in jeopardy with that train of thought.

[Pylon]

This isn't about opinions on whether or not it's nice to volunteers or whether or not it's "fair".  It's about the regulation.  What I'm saying is that the regulation gives commanders that discretion.  I'm not advocating commanders to run around and say, "Nobody can wear their wings or activity patches in my unit!" but all optional uniform items have always fallen under the commander's purview to establish the acceptable uniform of the day.   Fair or unfair, good idea or bad idea, the facts are still the same.  You're confusing opinions with facts.

[NCRblues]

What do you think makes patches a different class of optional uniform items that differentiates them from ribbons, cords, headgear and other optional appurtenances that commanders already regularly exercise authority over?

Regularly exercise authority over?

Ribbons, sure a commander can say no ribbons tonight or this month, but why?

Cords, well only cadets wear them

Headgear, yup a commander can continue to hate NBB for ever and ever but the argument given time and time again on here is that NBB grads get a patch, and that patch should be enough. Now you're trying to tell me a commander can say "welcome back to NBB, you cant wear your beret. Also, by the way, I know NHQ and my boss's say you can wear the patch, but I don't like it so take it off"

I have never...ever seen ANYONE exercise authority over APPROVED patches in CAP. You would have to be out of your mind to do that. Crazy... first it was we hate the beret, but now that the beret is authorized you suddenly control the patch as well? No... I don't think so...this is just a line of BS because some people believe that the title squadron commander = god in my little world of cap.

I also see no place that it says "patches fall under commander uniform of the day purview" I must have missed that class in SLS/CLC/TLC/RSC/NSC/UCC and ALS and NCOA in the AF as well...

[Eclipse]

A pilot who has GTL and wings on can not be made to take off his GTL badge on the BDUs because a random activity director or commander does not like GT things... sorry does not work that way. National, including everyone's boss, the national commander says I can wear those patches on my BDU's to all events.

Really?

Because in CAWG, it has been asserted a number of times that Ground Team Members aren't allowed to wear their grade.  I'd say that tops the
"You can't make me." top ten.

Now you're trying to tell me a commander can say "welcome back to NBB, you cant wear your beret.

Yep.

See 39-1 Table 1-1
1. The National Commander and other commanders may specify the wear of a particular uniform type for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron, group, wing, region, and national functions. However, all commanders must be mindful of the objective of attaining a neatly uniformed appearance at a minimum of personal expense to the individual member and will consequently refrain from imposing unreasonable uniform requirements.

I've run across plenty of "issues" with uniforms in the last 12 years, and required plenty of on the spot changes to thing which were clearly not correct.
For things which were not authorized in my wing, but might be in the home wing, I never mandated any adjustments which required a needle and thread to fix, but for cadets from my wing, who were clearly misinterpreting another wing CC's local authority as being in effect here, changes were made at the gate.

Headgear is well within the authority of a commander, unit or activity.

[NCRblues]

Eclipse, I am not arguing headgear. I understand that commanders can set the headgear and uniform standard...

The United Socialist workers paradise know as California GT "uniform" is another debacle that CAP should have never walked into....

What I am arguing is the patches part. I do not believe that your purview as a local squadron commander goes so far as to limit a properly earned and placed patch.

I believe that a random local yokel commander telling (for instance) a GTL to take off the GTL badges is wrong and breaks this portion of the regulation you just linked -  " will consequently refrain from imposing unreasonable uniform requirements."