campain hat

[Cliff_Chambliss]

meanwhile I'll just keep thinking about wearing my black Stetson with crossed sabers, wings, & rank to the front and regimental and CAP badges on the rear.  Yeah, that'l work.

[Eclipse]

And what is it that we are teaching those very same cadets when we tell them they can wear something that is clearly not allowed by regs? Whether it's a cap of some kind, a civilian coat with their BDU's (I know it gets cold in some places, but shouldn't we be stressing the 'uniformity' of uniforms) or any other item or practice for that matter?

And we seem to compound the problem by often allowing Senior member uniforms to be 'worn as desired', while at the same time telling our cadets that their uniforms must match inspections requirements, etc. If you doubt this, go ask five cadets their honest opinion of SM uniform wear.

To essentially tell cadets some form of 'Well, that's OK, we allow it in this Squadron, or Group, or Wing or activity' seems to fly in the face of the practices of good Followership and Leadership.

I think one problem here is, that is exactly what we are working with here.  Cadets, kids, 12 year olds, that we are responsible for.  If I have some little 12 year old freezing his/her tush in inclimate weather, I'm going to get them into a jacket or coat wheter or not it's military or civilian.  If they were adults in the military getting paid to put up with cold weather and rain, snow, what ever, then that would be different.  A lot of these kids are just cub scouts or girl scouts dressed in a CAP ubiform.  We should be looking out for the youngsters.

Then they don't belong there to start with.  Being sent home can be just the lesson a cadet or senior member needs to understand that rules apply to everyone and ours are not a menu.

Our cadets are not "just scouts in different uniforms", and one of the reasons is the higher expectations.  Again, we spend far too much time worrying about the exceptions and planning around them instead of just ironing them out.  As someone who managed a large cadet activity for nearly a decade
in a cold, unpredictable climate, the reality was that we had to make exceptions because "such is life", but we always made sure that the cadets understood that they were enjoying an exception, one which they needed to correct as soon as possible.

As capmaj points out, a lot of our members do not seem to understand the distinction between "field expediency / emergency" and "everyday wear".
If, you're trapped in the woods and have to kill a skunk and make a hat out of it to stay alive, so be it.  But you're not allowed to show up with the skunk
on your head, nor wear the skunk to meetings after you're rescued "because of safety".

[lordmonar]

Okay.....well if we are going to go down this road.

Here is my suggestion.

Cadet Membership will cost around $400.

That will get a cadet a full service dress, full BDU with proper boots, and apprpriate cold weather gear.

Any other argument over "everyday wear of civilian jackets" that does not include the CAP providing the "required" cold weather gear is just assinine.

[Eclipse]

Cold weather activities are not a mandated part of the cadet program, however if you choose to participate, you must wear the uniform correctly.

Isn't that attention to detail part of the program and the life lessons?

And which are we talking about - the cadet who is so financially strapped that they aren't likely to be in ES anyway, or the ones who are wearing
$350 worth of Molle gear that they ordered on their new iPhone, and then say they can't afford a $20 M65?

Or worse, intentionally buy an ABU or ACU jacket because it is "kewl" and then tell you it is "all I have"?

The regs say we can't mandate anything (for cadets) we don't issue (at least in as much as barring participation because of it), yet they offer no relief
to 100% proper configuration, either.

[Grumpy]

Okay.....well if we are going to go down this road.

Here is my suggestion.

Cadet Membership will cost around $400.

That will get a cadet a full service dress, full BDU with proper boots, and apprpriate cold weather gear.

Any other argument over "everyday wear of civilian jackets" that does not include the CAP providing the "required" cold weather gear is just assinine.

Amen to that.

[Flying Pig]

Lee Marvin has every right to wear a campaign cover. When he served in the Marine Corps the campaign cover was an approved cover for Marines, not just DIs.

USMC Range Staff wears campaign hats too. Have you ever seen a smokey on a commissioned or warrant officer?

A historical note, the USMC Primary Marksmanship Instructors were authorized to wear them before DIs were.  However they can only wear them while performing their duties.  When they leave the base or are not engaged in their duties they cant wear them.

In the CHP, officers Sgt and below wear the smokey and Lt and higher wear the crushed bus driver hat

[lordmonar]

Cold weather activities are not a mandated part of the cadet program, however if you choose to participate, you must wear the uniform correctly.

Isn't that attention to detail part of the program and the life lessons?

And which are we talking about - the cadet who is so financially strapped that they aren't likely to be in ES anyway, or the ones who are wearing
$350 worth of Molle gear that they ordered on their new iPhone, and then say they can't afford a $20 M65?

Or worse, intentionally buy an ABU or ACU jacket because it is "kewl" and then tell you it is "all I have"?

The regs say we can't mandate anything (for cadets) we don't issue (at least in as much as barring participation because of it), yet they offer no relief
to 100% proper configuration, either.

As a minimum everyone will need an all weather coat at about $88 each.  NEW M-65s are NOT $20.....they run about $75......get your head out of the surplus store.

I did not say anything about molley gear....I am simply talking about normal uniforms.

One set of Service Dress and one set of BDU's with approriate jackets is going to cost.

Sure...we can say....that's the cost....and make them pay.   But that concept is contrary to the stated goals of the Cadet Program.

[Eclipse]

^ You're trying to pick and choose the reality of CAP to suit your argument.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The CHP seems to like them, but I think they stand around in the sun a lot.

I am trying to imagine Erik Estrada and Larry Wilcox wearing "smokies."

Boy Scouts at one point had red berets, and campaign hats. Somewhere between Baden Powell and the fall of the Berlin wall......

I remember seeing the campaign hats in supply catalogues when I was a Scout, mid-70s to early 80s, but I cannot recall that I ever saw one being worn.

I had the red beret.  One of the troops I was in chose it as its headgear.  I also had the garrison cap and a khaki baseball cap with the Scout emblem.

There was an alternative uniform back then for the "Leadership Corps;" it was forest-green with a leather belt, no neckerchief and the red beret.  As a Senior Patrol Leader and Junior Assistant Scoutmaster I could have worn one but my parents couldn't afford it.

The Scouts were pretty easy-going with uniforms back then (this was just before the tan shirt with red epaulette slides came in).  A lot of us got our uniforms at Goodwill, Salvation Army, etc.; some were the old ones with collars, scalloped pockets and "Boy Scouts Of America" title above the pocket.  Of course, I grew up in a fairly disadvantaged area and that was all a lot of us could afford.

I wonder how many cadets find themselves in that same unfortunate position and feel discouraged from joining CAP because of it?  I know we're supposed to provide initial issue to them but for some that's a long time coming.

[lordmonar]

^ You're trying to pick and choose the reality of CAP to suit your argument.

You bet!

I have never said I am not above a little bit of real politics.

If you are going to being me and my squadron to task because when it is cold...I tell my cadets and SM to wear an appropriate jacket....at meetings, in the field, on missions, at SAREX......well so be it.

I am not going to tell them they can't participate.

I am not going to hold up drill and ceremony practice because it is cold.
I am not going to risk my cadet's health and safety.

So I order them to violate the regulations.

That's called leadership.  Now....should I be proud that I do that?  No......but I have to get the mission done.  That is leadership.  Uniforms and presenting a good image is very important....but not as imporatant as getting my cadets through their required training with out them catching cold.

[capmaj]

I still assert that allowing a non-regulatory practice to continue for the sake of 'getting things done' sends the wrong message to cadets who are in an organization that patterns itself after a military service and in fact advertises itself as a great precursor to military service, i.e. advanced placement in the USAFA or E3 status for Mitchell awardees.

When the cadets in question are meeting on a military base, particularly on a USAF installation, even more 'negative attention' is brought to bear. I'm not sure that someone observing cadets coming to and fro on the base wearing Service dress and/or BDU's while wearing civilian coats or covers send the professional image we strive for. While we are not truly a 'military' organization, the person observing us just knows that the cadet in question is wearing USAF-style items along with their red or purple ski jacket. Not the image we or the cadets should be going for.

When a cadet has made several appearances in a private coat or cap or what-ever, but at the same time has monies to attend a special activity or squadron event, it is time to evaluate where the priorities lie.

[lordmonar]

I still assert that allowing a non-regulatory practice to continue for the sake of 'getting things done' sends the wrong message to cadets who are in an organization that patterns itself after a military service and in fact advertises itself as a great precursor to military service, i.e. advanced placement in the USAFA or E3 status for Mitchell awardees.

When the cadets in question are meeting on a military base, particularly on a USAF installation, even more 'negative attention' is brought to bear. I'm not sure that someone observing cadets coming to and fro on the base wearing Service dress and/or BDU's while wearing civilian coats or covers send the professional image we strive for. While we are not truly a 'military' organization, the person observing us just knows that the cadet in question is wearing USAF-style items along with their red or purple ski jacket. Not the image we or the cadets should be going for.

When a cadet has made several appearances in a private coat or cap or what-ever, but at the same time has monies to attend a special activity or squadron event, it is time to evaluate where the priorities lie.

I agree to a point.

But what am I supposed to do?

Okay...it's 35 degree outside....we all need to do drill.....you can't afford an all weather coat or a field jacket...I can't let you freeze....I guess you have to quit.

Not acceptable.

I meet on an USAF base....I am retired USAF.....and we wear our civilian jackets.   If anyone has heart burn...I'll explain.

Does it send the wrong message?  NO....not really....it sends a message about real leadership that most young people are no ready to learn....but anyone who has spend time in the military knows.....there is a time, place and way to violate regulations.

Getting the mission done, safely is one of those times.

[NC Hokie]

When the cadets in question are meeting on a military base, particularly on a USAF installation, even more 'negative attention' is brought to bear. I'm not sure that someone observing cadets coming to and fro on the base wearing Service dress and/or BDU's while wearing civilian coats or covers send the professional image we strive for. While we are not truly a 'military' organization, the person observing us just knows that the cadet in question is wearing USAF-style items along with their red or purple ski jacket. Not the image we or the cadets should be going for.

While I agree with the sentiment, as a practical matter, there's not a lot that we can do about it.  CAP/USAF does not issue proper outerwear, and our own regulations state that commanders "may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet."

With those constraints, do we suspend all activity during the winter months, forbid the wear of adequate clothing because it's not uniform, or suck it up and make the best of a bad situation?

[SSGT FAY]

I still assert that allowing a non-regulatory practice to continue for the sake of 'getting things done' sends the wrong message to cadets who are in an organization that patterns itself after a military service and in fact advertises itself as a great precursor to military service, i.e. advanced placement in the USAFA or E3 status for Mitchell awardees.

When the cadets in question are meeting on a military base, particularly on a USAF installation, even more 'negative attention' is brought to bear. I'm not sure that someone observing cadets coming to and fro on the base wearing Service dress and/or BDU's while wearing civilian coats or covers send the professional image we strive for. While we are not truly a 'military' organization, the person observing us just knows that the cadet in question is wearing USAF-style items along with their red or purple ski jacket. Not the image we or the cadets should be going for.

When a cadet has made several appearances in a private coat or cap or what-ever, but at the same time has monies to attend a special activity or squadron event, it is time to evaluate where the priorities lie.

I agree to a point.

But what am I supposed to do?

Okay...it's 35 degree outside....we all need to do drill.....you can't afford an all weather coat or a field jacket...I can't let you freeze....I guess you have to quit.

Not acceptable.

I meet on an USAF base....I am retired USAF.....and we wear our civilian jackets.   If anyone has heart burn...I'll explain.

Does it send the wrong message?  NO....not really....it sends a message about real leadership that most young people are no ready to learn....but anyone who has spend time in the military knows.....there is a time, place and way to violate regulations.

Getting the mission done, safely is one of those times.

I concur if mission requires you to be outside in the old and proper issue gear isnt or hasn't been given or attained then civilian equivalent is authorized

[rustyjeeper]

Those who live and breathe the "regulation" mantra are likely those who never anywhere IMHO.  Not allowing common-sense as well as mission completion to factor into whatever wa are trying to accomplish would likely not even last as mallcops (sorry to any mallcops I might have offended, I was one of them  long, long ago )
We need to teach cadets resposibility and leadership NOT to be lemmings! There is a time and a place to "bend" from the regulation when neccesary to stay safe or get something done.

There is no command anywhere that does not know this. The regulations exist for a reason and are meant to be followed as best we can. That is all that we can do and we must use our own judgement when it comes to safety or emergency decisions.

If in uniform on a boat taking on water/and only PINK life jackets do we really need to consult 39-1 and refuse to wear if it is out of regulation?

Sadly, I think some here would say yes. Dont wear it. Fortunately over time Darwin removes those from our midst; unfortunately it can take years to see it happen.......

[SARDOC]

This Topic is getting derailed.

Under no Circumstances should a Campaign Hat be worn...  The Survival examples above in no way shape or form apply to a Campaign Hat.

[Eclipse]

Drill inside.

If in uniform on a boat taking on water/and only PINK life jackets do we really need to consult 39-1 and refuse to wear if it is out of regulation?

As I mentioned in this thread, there is a world of difference between field expediency / emergency and "planned operations", but a lot of people
like to interchange them just to justify their position.

Cadet should not be outside drilling if it is 35°, if for some reason it is require that the do, then yes, you need to plan better and get them the proper, correct clothes.

[jeders]

Drill inside.

Unfortunately, not always an option.

This Topic is getting derailed.

Under no Circumstances should a Campaign Hat be worn...  The Survival examples above in no way shape or form apply to a Campaign Hat.

Tic-toc-tic-toc-tic-toc

[lordmonar]

This Topic is getting derailed.

Under no Circumstances should a Campaign Hat be worn...  The Survival examples above in no way shape or form apply to a Campaign Hat.

I thought we already established that!

[SARDOC]

This Topic is getting derailed.

Under no Circumstances should a Campaign Hat be worn...  The Survival examples above in no way shape or form apply to a Campaign Hat.

I thought we already established that!

I thought so too...but the thread still continued the drift..