Senior Officers uncomfortable in Air Force skin?

[johnnyb47]

"Who's the tennis referee next to all those officers on the dais?" 

"He's everyone's commander."

"Oh..."

Not fair.
Tennis referee's get to wear jackets.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

...we had a military-type distinctive uniform, the CSU, and for reasons unexplained it's been taken away from us.

I think enough has been said about the CSU's disappearance that we can say we know why it's gone. It was illegally authorized. The Air Force didn't get the opportunity to bless it. It never appeared in regulation. And arguably, it was the brainchild of a megalomaniac. Does that work for you?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I agree with you...to a point.

I think enough has been said about the CSU's disappearance that we can say we know why it's gone.

Depending on who you talk to.  A hard-and-fast "this-is-why" reason was never given.

It was illegally authorized.

No argument there...and with that being the case it should have been kiboshed out of the starting gate instead of given time to become known and liked by many CAP members.

The Air Force didn't get the opportunity to bless it.

Non-concur.  Alterations were made to the CSU after asking AF input; i.e., removal of "U.S." collar brass and replacement with "CAP," removal of metal grade from flight cap.  They could have said "no" to it at any stage along the way.

It never appeared in regulation.

A good chunk of our regs aren't in regulation...unless you count vaguely-codified ICL's.

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/2008_01_25_Uniforms.pdf pp. 3-4

And arguably, it was the brainchild of a megalomaniac. Does that work for you?

Said personage has been tossed out on his...ear...for his transgressions.  It is neither logical nor just to punish the membership for the actions of one, nor to put the screws to a good idea that came from a less-than-good person.

Having said that, it's a done deal.  However, there is no reason I can see to just continue with the status quo.

[RiverAux]

A good chunk of our regs aren't in regulation...unless you count vaguely-codified ICL's.

Actually not true.  Right now, with the exception of the uniform ICLs we only have 4 active ICLs, all of which were put out in 2011.  NHQ has done a good job cleaning up the ICL backlog that used to be very, very bad.

[NCRblues]

Having said that, it's a done deal.  However, there is no reason I can see to just continue with the status quo.

The National Board would disagree with you. They made it pretty clear the "status quo" is what they want, and what we will get for the next 4 years.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The National Board would disagree with you. They made it pretty clear the "status quo" is what they want, and what we will get for the next 4 years.

Perhaps.  That doesn't make it right.

[NCRblues]

The National Board would disagree with you. They made it pretty clear the "status quo" is what they want, and what we will get for the next 4 years.

Perhaps.  That doesn't make it right.

Oh no no... never said it was right. In fact I disagree with it strongly, but we are stuck with it.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Oh no no... never said it was right. In fact I disagree with it strongly, but we are stuck with it.

Yes...the greying of the Civil Air Patrol, and I don't mean my hair (what's left of it).

[Hardshell Clam]

And... there is a significant portion of the population that just do not want to wear a uniform. This group includes a lot of woman, introverts and others for some reason or another, just do not want to wear one.  The CAP specifically states in its "Get Started Booklet for Adults": "Some members  choose to serve without wearing a uniform, although one of the CAP uniforms is required in certain instances..."

As some folks just do not want to wear a uniform of any type, do the belong in the CAP? Apparently they do as the policy allows for it.

[davidsinn]

And... there is a significant portion of the population that just do not want to wear a uniform. This group includes a lot of woman, introverts and others for some reason or another, just do not want to wear one.  The CAP specifically states in its "Get Started Booklet for Adults": "Some members  choose to serve without wearing a uniform, although one of the CAP uniforms is required in certain instances..."

As some folks just do not want to wear a uniform of any type, do the belong in the CAP? Apparently they do as the policy allows for it.

39-1 mandates a member acquire the minimum basic uniform. A booklet is not regulatory.

[Hardshell Clam]

And... there is a significant portion of the population that just do not want to wear a uniform. This group includes a lot of woman, introverts and others for some reason or another, just do not want to wear one.  The CAP specifically states in its "Get Started Booklet for Adults": "Some members  choose to serve without wearing a uniform, although one of the CAP uniforms is required in certain instances..."

As some folks just do not want to wear a uniform of any type, do the belong in the CAP? Apparently they do as the policy allows for it.

39-1 mandates a member acquire the minimum basic uniform. A booklet is not regulatory.

As 39-1 states: "senior members not meeting weight and grooming standards may
wear CAP distinctive uniforms or civilian attire as befits the occasion".

I then pose this question: As "may" is not the same as "shall" and as you can serve in the CAP with a beard, "overweight" or with your hair "down", and as you must wear a uniform only in some circumstances, would that mean as long as I have a uniform at home I do not have to put it on if I don't fly, work directly with cadets, etc? 

And you are right that a pamphlet is not a regulation, but it certainly would be a good argument that you are in compliance with an official publication approved and issued by the CAP National HQ if one was called to task for not wearing a uniform.

And please, lets not make this about me as some folks like to do.

[davidsinn]

And... there is a significant portion of the population that just do not want to wear a uniform. This group includes a lot of woman, introverts and others for some reason or another, just do not want to wear one.  The CAP specifically states in its "Get Started Booklet for Adults": "Some members  choose to serve without wearing a uniform, although one of the CAP uniforms is required in certain instances..."

As some folks just do not want to wear a uniform of any type, do the belong in the CAP? Apparently they do as the policy allows for it.

39-1 mandates a member acquire the minimum basic uniform. A booklet is not regulatory.

As 39-1 states: "senior members not meeting weight and grooming standards may
wear CAP distinctive uniforms or civilian attire as befits the occasion".

I then pose this question: As "may" is not the same as "shall" and as you can serve in the CAP with a beard, "overweight" or with your hair "down", and as you must wear a uniform only in some circumstances, would that mean as long as I have a uniform at home I do not have to put it on if I don't fly, work directly with cadets, etc? 

And you are right that a pamphlet is not a regulation, but it certainly would be a good argument that you are in compliance with an official publication approved and issued by the CAP National HQ if one was called to task for not wearing a uniform.

And please, lets not make this about me as some folks like to do.

This is about you because for whatever reason you are misguided about a great many things.

1-5. Uniform Combinations. Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow
for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to equip
himself/herself with all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication. Memberswill equip themselves with the basic uniform.

a. Minimum Basic Service Uniform. Male: Short-sleeve, light blue shirt; dark blue trousers; blue
belt/silver buckle, blue flight cap; black shoes, and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch,
collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem. Female: Short-sleeve light
blue blouse; Dark blue skirt or slacks; flight cap; neutral nylon hose; black shoes; black handbag.
Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight
cap emblem.
b. CAP Distinctive Basic Uniform (senior members only). Male: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt;
gray trousers; black belt; black shoes and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, embroidered epaulet sleeve.
Female: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt; gray slacks or skirt; plain black shoes. Insignia: CAP
nameplate, embroidered epaulet sleeve.

As for your question you must be in a proper uniform to fly in a corporate aircraft, as stated in multiple regs. You must wear a uniform when conducting the cadet program as stated in multiple regs.

The only option you have is which basic uniform you may wear. You must have one of them.

[Hardshell Clam]

davidsinn: "As for your question you must be in a proper uniform to fly in a corporate aircraft, as stated in multiple regs. You must wear a uniform when conducting the cadet program as stated in multiple regs.

The only option you have is which basic uniform you may wear. You must have one of them."


I can't disagree with what you say, as I just said it:

"...as you must wear a uniform only in some circumstances, would that mean as long as I have a uniform at home I do not have to put it on if I don't fly, work directly with cadets, etc? "

And I was responding to a question concerning uniforms and you had to get personal by stating I am "misguided".  So if I take an opposing or different view that makes me misguided? Please this is just a rhetorical question so no need to flame me for it.

[Hardshell Clam]

When reading all the CAP regulations and policies, what with some conflicting with others,  one would do well to consider what we called in school the "common sense clause":


"Laws are made for men of ordinary understanding and should, therefore, be construed by the ordinary rules of common sense. Their meaning is not to be sought for in metaphysical subtleties which may make anything mean everything or nothing at pleasure."
– Thomas Jefferson, Letter to William Johnson, June 12, 1823

[NCRblues]

Hardshell,

Here it is...

If you have the basic uniform = great, good job, welcome to following the rules.
If you do not have the basic uniform= shame, go get one.

Put on the uniform when flying in CAP aircraft or when conducting the CP, or when your commander says you must. Other than that, do whatever you want to buddy because no matter what we say here, you are going to do it anyway.

Have a good one.

P.S. feel free to answer any of my questions at anytime. I'm sure many of us on here are wondering about your amazing resume.

[Hardshell Clam]

Hardshell,

Here it is...

If you have the basic uniform = great, good job, welcome to following the rules.
If you do not have the basic uniform= shame, go get one.

Put on the uniform when flying in CAP aircraft or when conducting the CP, or when your commander says you must. Other than that, do whatever you want to buddy because no matter what we say here, you are going to do it anyway.

Have a good one.

P.S. feel free to answer any of my questions at anytime. I'm sure many of us on here are wondering about your amazing resume.

NCRBlues, as you were civil I will respond: I do not "do whatever you want to buddy because no matter what we say here, you are going to do it anyway". I follow the directions of my command and as the wearing of the uniform in not always mandatory, I choose not to wear it. I do not just do my job at the weekly meetings, its done all throughout the week/weekend, whenever someone is available to sit down and meet with me. As to me feeling free to answer your questions, suffice it to say, not ever going to happen for the reasons I have given. Nuff said so please let's just agree to disagree, and let it go. Now if possible lets keep this thread on track

[RogueLeader]

It is mandatory. It's IAW CAPM 39-1. I can't help it if your commander doesn't enforce the reg. You should regardless. We don't even know which Wing King/Queen doesn't enforce it.

[Hardshell Clam]

It is mandatory. It's IAW CAPM 39-1. I can't help it if your commander doesn't enforce the reg. You should regardless. We don't even know which Wing King/Queen doesn't enforce it.

I'm sorry, but it is not "mandatory" all the time, period. But we were through this: 39-1 states clearly states, and I quote: "senior members not meeting weight and grooming standards may wear CAP distinctive uniforms or civilian attire as befits the occasion" and my commander decides what befits the occasion. Yes there are times when you must wear the uniform, but as stated above, we have been through this and when they must be worn, etc., etc..

As to "We don't even know which Wing King/Queen doesn't enforce it", knowing where I live/work is not a part of what we need to share in this forum so as to have this discussion.  

[Eclipse]

Owning it is mandatory.

[Hardshell Clam]

Owning it is mandatory.

Indeed, but we can all agree that wearing a uniform is not mandatory all the time, correct? And you know what, I have my old CG Aux uniform and it is the same as the USAF light blue/dark blue (same color, company I belive) so I guess I am set!