BDUs are now Obsolete

[Buzz]

Way back, when dinosaurs walked the earth and there were still CAP planes without training wheels on the front, the AF dropped the 1505 tan uniform ("pinks").  CAP still used 1505s, of course eventually they became cadet-only and finally dropped out of the manual entirely -- but during that entire time, the pinks were considered a USAF uniform standard.

Then, after a while, fatigues went through the process.  Again, at each stage, they were considered a USAF uniform standard.

I can't imagine the BDU being given any different treatment.

[Buzz]

CAP still wears BDU's...

CAP is not a major mil-spec BDU user.

62,000 members is enough to keep them coming.

Not hardly.  Even if everyone in CAP wore them and bought a new set every year, that's only something like a couple of weeks' worth of production to handle the entire need until we go to ABU.

What WILL keep them coming is demand in other markets (USCG, civilian and foreign), and I expect them to stay in production until it no longer matters to us.

[Eclipse]

I expect them to stay in production until it no longer matters to us.

Agreed.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

FACTS:
6. All CAP uniform changes must be approved by the Air Force.

It was not always that way, until the CSU fiasco.

THOUGHTS and QUESTIONS:
1. The Air Force (Defense Department) is looking to move away from the ABU to something else so I dont see CAP getting ABU anytime soon or more importantly ever.
[/quote]

Agreed, echoed by most of the AF personnel I know.  My unit has dual status CAP/ANG members.  I do not expect to ever get ABU's.

2. What is the relationship between a military organization (USAF) and a civilian non-profit organization (CAP) regarding similiar wear of uniforms? (Take the side of the Air Force rather than CAP and provide your thoughts)

I don't think the Air Force cares, as long as misguided CAP officers aren't trolling for salutes.   Most of the Air Force (younger ones, anyway) don't even know who we are.

3. What would happen if we go to a non-military uniform? Would it effect any of our missions?

We already have three non-military field uniforms: blue utility jumpsuit, blue NOMEX flightsuit and blue BDU's.

4. What if we choose a miltary uniform that doesnt emulate the Air Force uniform? (Take the side of the Air Force again and provide your thoughts)

After the CSU debacle, General Courter made it clear that any uniform cannot be military-styled...which can mean almost anything, but what it really means, to me anyway, is that the status quo is the only acceptable uniform.  That means anything not looking like a mall cop, a Realtor or an EMT (no offence to any of those) ist verboten, as is any colour except grey, grey, grey, grey.

5. I believe our relationship with the Air Force will change as the Air Force has made it clear it wants a distinction. The distinction can be discussed here or started on another POST.

"Relationship?"  Those in the AF who even know who we are often just see us as a bunch of old people trolling for salutes and a source of warm bodies for Lackland AFB.  It wasn't always that way; I've seen it devolve into this over the past almost 20 years.

The "distinction" is anything but "clear."  "Low light/at a distance" is nonsensical and empirically undefinable.  CAP leadership response to that is...you guessed it...grey!

There will be no new service uniform that has any shade of blue, nor one that is not a minor variation on the grey/white/blazer.

6. The Air Force also made it clear it wants CAP to remain a strong organization and provide our three missions. We are a valued organization to the Air Force and to this nation.

To those in the AF who even know who we are and don't see us in the two categories in item #5.

7. To serve in a volunteer organization with the missions of CAP will always be my honor and priviledge.

It has always been mine as well, but I have seen more changes in the organisation that have been for ill rather than good.

[ironputts]

"Relationship?"  Those in the AF who even know who we are often just see us as a bunch of old people trolling for salutes and a source of warm bodies for Lackland AFB.  It wasn't always that way; I've seen it devolve into this over the past almost 20 years.

I remember joining 20 years ago while Active Duty Army. I remember everyone complaining about the "berry boards". 20 years later we are complaining about the "grey boards". We are a distinct organization and the Air Force will continue to have us distinct in what we wear.

I ran into two active duty Captains while at Maxwell AFB 2 weeks ago. I asked them did they mind CAP members wearing their uniforms. They both looked at me and said they didnt. My years of experience showed me they did mind. They also didnt want to be rude and were courteous which I appreciated greatly. I then asked in their years while in the Air Force were they taught about CAP and they said they were not. They did not ask me any questions and I thanked them for their time and wished them luck in their careers.

I had a great time at Maxwell and met many CAP and Air Force personnel. All were courteous to each other and I did not observe one CAP member trolling for salutes! Most wore their uniforms well and a successful NSC in my eyes! I suggest all CAP members attend this experience!

[Eclipse]

I ran into two active duty Captains while at Maxwell AFB 2 weeks ago. I asked them did they mind CAP members wearing their uniforms.

How does that conversation even come up?  Why would we care?

Our uniforms are a product of our parent service, they are what they are, why would the opinion of random "anybody" make a tinker's difference?

I do my job and expect common respect based on my performance, not somebody's personal misunderstanding about what CAP is (or isn't).
I'm eager to engage in a discussion with anyone interested in CAP, but I'm not walking around with my hat in my hand hoping people will
like me just because they happen to be in the USAF (or any other service).

This idea people get in their heads, that "volunteer = lesser" needs to end.  It is different.  Period.

[RiverAux]

I remember joining 20 years ago while Active Duty Army. I remember everyone complaining about the "berry boards". 20 years later we are complaining about the "grey boards". We are a distinct organization and the Air Force will continue to have us distinct in what we wear.

Don't actually hear a whole lot of complaining about them, even here where everybody complains about everything.  While there are some who would like to go back to blue, they aren't seen as some sort of badge of shame (and just downright ugly) like the berry boards.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I remember joining 20 years ago while Active Duty Army. I remember everyone complaining about the "berry boards". 20 years later we are complaining about the "grey boards". We are a distinct organization and the Air Force will continue to have us distinct in what we wear.

Don't actually hear a whole lot of complaining about them, even here where everybody complains about everything.  While there are some who would like to go back to blue, they aren't seen as some sort of badge of shame (and just downright ugly) like the berry boards.

Except, Colonel, that what is "distinctive" and what is not can vary depending on who you ask.  The AFI mandating "distinctiveness" is about as clear as mud.

The reason we lost blue boards and hard rank was because of (depending on who you ask) bad behaviour on the part of a former Nat CC and some bad actors trying to give orders to AF personnel.  We're still being punished for that.  If someone cannot tell from "CAP" on blue boards and the blue three-line tag that we are who we are...who owns the problem?  It's not us, though we've been made to believe it is.

We wore almost-identical analogues to the AF uniform for decades before this "distinctiveness" Bravo Sierra was floated and it didn't do any harm.

It is inexcusable that two officers were not taught about us.  It wasn't always that way.  I don't go asking AF personnel about us.  In fact, I interact with them as little as possible (which I didn't always do) other than saluting/greeting when required because over the years their reaction to us has gone from camaraderie to very often the cold shoulder.  I don't want to do anything that's going to be misinterpreted by some E-2 who will write to the Air Force Times about some "wannabe CAP guy."  My experience is that the Army, Navy, Marines and Coast Guard are much more cordial to us.

RiverAux is correct in that there haven't been a lot of complaints about the grey boards; however, a sizeable chunk of our current membership haven't known anything else.  The berry boards were an abomination and a punitive measure comparable to being told back in grade school to bend over and grab your ankles.  The grey boards were/are an analogue to being given Band-Aids to put on the wounds inflicted by the berry boards.  They do look a sight better than the bog-awful berry boards.  I threw my berry boards away as soon as the grey ones were authorised.

I actually have drafted a formal proposal for both a new CAP-distinctive uniform and for modifications to the AF uniform but there's no way I'll forward them up the chain because I know they'll get turned down, because they're not grey.

[NCRblues]

"Relationship?"  Those in the AF who even know who we are often just see us as a bunch of old people trolling for salutes and a source of warm bodies for Lackland AFB.  It wasn't always that way; I've seen it devolve into this over the past almost 20 years.

I ran into two active duty Captains while at Maxwell AFB 2 weeks ago. I asked them did they mind CAP members wearing their uniforms. They both looked at me and said they didnt. My years of experience showed me they did mind. They also didnt want to be rude and were courteous which I appreciated greatly. I then asked in their years while in the Air Force were they taught about CAP and they said they were not. They did not ask me any questions and I thanked them for their time and wished them luck in their careers.

Who cares what those two captains think of CAP members wearing OUR uniform. Those two officers have ZERO say in whatever we do. Congress gave us permission to perform our duties and wear the uniforms. Even if those two captains despised us, that's too bad for them.

I know I hated things when I was on active duty (and I am sure every service member here hated one thing or another) but i put up with it, and went about my day.

I really hate to say this, but actions like that make CAP look poor overall. That type of conversation does not need to be happening with captains or anyone below general officer/secretary AF. Those captains follow orders just like everyone else (including CAP).

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

After the CSU debacle, General Courter made it clear that any uniform cannot be military-styled...which can mean almost anything, but what it really means, to me anyway, is that the status quo is the only acceptable uniform.  That means anything not looking like a mall cop, a Realtor or an EMT (no offence to any of those) ist verboten, as is any colour except grey, grey, grey, grey.

Maybe they'll let us use the color gray instead?  :angel:

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Perhaps so, sir.

I drove my teachers mad in high school with my use of the Queen's English.  I've been doing it for probably 40 years.  Who the heck did Noah Webster think he was, anyway, replacing a system that worked with one full of inconsistencies?  Why not change "neighbour" to "nabor" (as in Jim!) instead of "neighbor?"  Or disallow movie houses that use "theatre" (instead of theater) or strip malls that use some permutation of "centre" in their name, rather than "center?"

I live near the Canadian border...watch a fair bit of CBC...have relatives there...go there not infrequently...friends in Australia...friends in UK...read far too much English literature, including a university class on Shakespeare but going way back to Thomas Hardy and Tolkien in childhood...I just use the system the wider Anglosphere uses (most of Canada, UK, Ireland, Australia, NZ, South Africa, India, Pakistan), that's all, out of personal choice.  And, no, I don't use it in CAP correspondence!

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread:

No, sir, I doubt they'd let us use anything than Webster's color gray, either.

Now off to make a nice cup of Earl Grey.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

I hope the  :angel: implied the jest in the comment.

In a sense I was re-enforcing your comment that we can have any color we want for or corporate uniform as long that color is gray.

I don't get CBC here but I do like BBC America.

[SarDragon]

Grey vs. gray -

Either is correct. Most simply, Americans use grAy, and the English use grEy.

[abdsp51]

There are still LE agencies who utilize BDU's fpr SWAT and other teams, plus black boots are pretty much the norm for most agencies these days.

[Hardshell Clam]

I drove my teachers mad in high school with my use of the Queen's English. 

Born in the UK to US Military folks, went to local early school there. When I moved (back) to the USA I made no pretence of being a brit, lost the foreign spelling, accent, etc.

As to uniforms, I only wear one type (BDU's) to field events, etc. Nothing aginest their wear but I find them to get in my way while doing my CAP job.

[Eclipse]

Nothing aginest their wear but I find them to get in my way while doing my CAP job.

What?  You've said that twice now.

You're expected to wear an appropriate uniform anytime you are performing CAP duties, especially in an official capacity.  I can see no way that they would "get in your way" as an IG.

[Hardshell Clam]

"You're expected to wear an appropriate uniform anytime you are performing CAP duties, especially in an official capacity".

Actually, the wear of the uniform is not mandatory and remains at the desecration of command.

[Spaceman3750]

Actually, the wear of the uniform is not mandatory and remains at the desecration of command.

But how does the uniform get in the way of being an IG?

This isn't like OSI where you end up with the SSgt interrogating the Colonel. Even if you're only a 1st Lt. (I strongly suspect you're pretty new to CAP) since grade doesn't mean a whole lot there's no reason to hide it.

[SarDragon]

"You're expected to wear an appropriate uniform anytime you are performing CAP duties, especially in an official capacity".

Actually, the wear of the uniform is not mandatory and remains at the desecration discretion of command.

(Wear) when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions (see note 1).

That looks pretty clear to me. Not mandatory, but expected.

[davidsinn]

Nothing aginest their wear but I find them to get in my way while doing my CAP job.

What?  You've said that twice now.

You're expected to wear an appropriate uniform anytime you are performing CAP duties, especially in an official capacity.  I can see no way that they would "get in your way" as an IG.

Apparently RM has a brother.