Idea: CAP Marksmanship Ribbon

[SAR-EMT1]

Naval Sea Cadets...EOD training.... ID like to see a 16 year old diffuse a defective torpedo...OH YES

[Hawk200]

One other thing about a CAP marksmanship program: What would it cost to do such a thing? Those pistols and rifles are gonna cost a pretty penny, and like DNall said, it's going to get someone in an uproar.

And overall, what benefit does a CAP Marksmanship ribbon offer our members? It won't make them any better at ES, or AE. Granted there are a number of ways marksmanship builds discipline for youth, but those kinds of things need to be taught by parents, not CAP.

And another ribbon just gets buried within a ribbon rack, not even notable most of the time. Some people don't even like like you reading their ribbons, they get irritated (Which begs the question: Why wear them if you don't want people looking at them?).

[MIKE]

Where is that picture of the NHWG Drill Team when you need it. 

[DNall]

They do that & we're the hitler youth on page one of the NY Times. You can't recruit 12yos into a program the govt openly admits is even partially abut ebing a pipeline to the military. They might be able to make the point internally to our members, but it can't be formally on teh record that way.

Good point, DNall, but it needed to be in a much bigger font, it shouldn't be missed.

Thanks, but my typing skills, or lack thereof, are so much more glaring in larger print. No joke on the original statement though. That's the reason the documents say what they do, but don't be fooled for a minute that cadet programs exists to create a pool of well qualified candidates for the military. The same can be said of AE engendering support for the airpower budget, and of ES saving money that's redirected to combat. Despite the propaganda, I think it's critical we stay well grounded in reality, and that right there is it.

That being the case, enhanced markmanship programs & activities that allow exploration of exciting military options are just the kind of thing we're supposed to be doing. The original statement spoke for itself (even with the spelling errors), but I'm adding this because I think a lot of people chase off at programs in CAP w/o thinking why they're doing it or if it serves the root cause of us being around. Same argument for over-focusing on state/local missions, those occasional messed up AE Sqs you see, a lot of things. Just stop & think is all I'm asking.

There's some reasons listed at the beginning of the thread. I got no qualms saying it's to get people excited about something related to military service. >90% of cadets I see are here because they want to be in the military & right now too. Quite a few grow out of it as they get older, but I think we put a goodly percentage of our cadets into service. So I got no problems with programs like this, and on that basis, just you can't advertise it as being that basis & the AF can NEVER say that out loud regardless of how true it is.

[AlphaSigOU]

Naval Sea Cadets...EOD training.... ID like to see a 16 year old diffuse a defective torpedo...OH YES

"Look, Ma... watch this..." (BOOM!)

[sandman]

Naval Sea Cadets...EOD training.... ID like to see a 16 year old diffuse a defective torpedo...OH YES

"Look, Ma... watch this..." (BOOM!)

Sarcasm aside, don't miss the point that there are programs that are attractive to teens and the like. Isn't it true that teens want to get involved in "cool" things. Can you keep teens in the CAP program on the merits of D&C alone?

CAP marksmanship ribbons are a great idea. Tie it in with a combination of NRA and CMP if you will, use the infrastructure already in place. Don't reinvent the wheel, just refine it.

Junior level use NRA criteria and introduce them into the CMP program at a mid-level with information and encouragement to obtain the highest level, generally speaking.

[Hawk200]

CAP marksmanship ribbons are a great idea. Tie it in with a combination of NRA and CMP if you will, use the infrastructure already in place. Don't reinvent the wheel, just refine it.

Why create a CAP ribbon for it? There are marksmanship badges that are authorized on both CAP and military uniforms. Why are these programs only worth something if CAP has their fingers in the pie? It would be taking away an authorized item on the uniform and replacing it with another.

Besides, so far no one seems to have answered  one question I posed earlier: Who's gonna buy the guns if we run our own program? Our own program is the only way to legitimize a CAP marksmanship ribbon. Giving an award for completion of someone elses program is disengenuous at best.

[DNall]

CAP marksmanship ribbons are a great idea. Tie it in with a combination of NRA and CMP if you will, use the infrastructure already in place. Don't reinvent the wheel, just refine it.

Why create a CAP ribbon for it? There are marksmanship badges that are authorized on both CAP and military uniforms. Why are these programs only worth something if CAP has their fingers in the pie? It would be taking away an authorized item on the uniform and replacing it with another.

Besides, so far no one seems to have answered  one question I posed earlier: Who's gonna buy the guns if we run our own program? Our own program is the only way to legitimize a CAP marksmanship ribbon. Giving an award for completion of someone elses program is disengenuous at best.

That's not the point at all. A CMP badge is very difficult to earn, and though you'd get an AF badge on enlisting, it appears you wouldn't be able to wear it before that in CAP. The idea is to give kids an early reward for a decent performance in an initial shoot, and progressively higher levels to work thru leading to something more substantial. The program itself gives the exposure to skills that'll help them in the military, and if we can work it so that after a pre-req level in the NRA program they are able to shoot for DoD qual & posibly even set something up for pre-award of the AF ribbon (like AFROTC does), that's a head start into the military.

The issue with the current badge is it over-emphasizes the importance of the marksman program within the cadet program (big honkin brass badge, little bitty spaatz ribbon) & it's just ugly on AF uniforms. Hence a ribbon was tossed out for discussion as an alternative way to display all the levels w/ clasps at a cheaper cost to cadets. Hell if you REALLY have to have a badge, follow AF's example w/ CMP & create a CAP specific badge to indicate the NRA levels & use the profit from it to put back into the program (see below).

Far as who would buy the rifles, I can't speak for everywhere else, but we already have them. Some money was donated a long time ago to help get the marsksmanship program going, & it's been added to over the years. We have anywhere from 100 to 200 cadets at an encampment & we're able to run all that want to thru the optional program. The cadets then buy the badges from NRA when they get home. If they want to progress further then they do that independently w/ an NRA certified person & bring us the signed info so we can post the award. I shot this same qualificaiton when I was a kid at camp. I think boy scouts can do the same. It's no big deal. The rifles themselves are quire inexpensive, and programs are available from NRA in partnership w/ manufactures to make it very inexpensive. Again, I can't speak for other places, but it we're set & it sounds like a lot of other wings are too. If you really can't work it out the small amount you'll need to come up with, try partnering with some other programs that will come in with their equipment & facilities to put it on for you.

[sandman]

The issue with the current badge is it over-emphasizes the importance of the marksman program within the cadet program (big honkin brass badge, little bitty spaatz ribbon) & it's just ugly on AF uniforms. Hence a ribbon was tossed out for discussion as an alternative way to display all the levels w/ clasps at a cheaper cost to cadets. Hell if you REALLY have to have a badge, follow AF's example w/ CMP & create a CAP specific badge to indicate the NRA levels & use the profit from it to put back into the program

I think that would be the best direction. Perhaps ribbons with a device to indicate "marksman" and "sharpshooter" and a ribbon/medal combo for expert (I'm using the Navy/CG idea here) or just simply a ribbon with a device to indicate marksman, sharpshooter, and expert.

Create a CAP specific badge for those who excell and place in NRA/CMP matches.

Far as who would buy the rifles, I can't speak for everywhere else, but we already have them. Some money was donated a long time ago to help get the marsksmanship program going, & it's been added to over the years. We have anywhere from 100 to 200 cadets at an encampment & we're able to run all that want to thru the optional program. The cadets then buy the badges from NRA when they get home. If they want to progress further then they do that independently w/ an NRA certified person & bring us the signed info so we can post the award. I shot this same qualificaiton when I was a kid at camp. I think boy scouts can do the same. It's no big deal. The rifles themselves are quire inexpensive, and programs are available from NRA in partnership w/ manufactures to make it very inexpensive. Again, I can't speak for other places, but it we're set & it sounds like a lot of other wings are too. If you really can't work it out the small amount you'll need to come up with, try partnering with some other programs that will come in with their equipment & facilities to put it on for you.

So, the infrastructure is already in place. What are the "roadblocks" preventing such a program (and the associated bling) from getting started?

[DNall]

We do the NRA marksmanship program at encampment now, as apparently do a few other wings, and award authority to wear the NRA badges, which are here: http://materials.nrahq.org/go/products.aspx?cat=Medals%20and%20Bars

If you're not familiar with that program t goes like this... doesn't matter if you shoot perfect, you have to progress thru the levesl in order.
1) shoot a qualifier, get badge;
2) shoot marksman, get dif badge;
3) shoot marksman again, get "First Class" attachment for badge
4) shoot Sharpshooter, get dif badge;
5-13) shoot sharpshooter nine additional times with a new bar for each one (just wear one)
14) shoot expert, get fouth kind of badge;
15) shoot distinguished expert get attachment. can also attach pistol/rifle/shotgun to expert but have to walk up the chain on each of those.

The program we execute is just light rifle, and only basic cadets & junior staff get to shoot (upper cadet staff is busy). That means people never get out of the bottom couple awards.

AFROTC shoots at field training. If they shoot expert they get the AF robbon, if sharpshooter or marksman than they get a blue & red ribbon that goes away when they commission, of course in order to go to FT they are techincally in the AF.

It true that we don't NEED a ribbon to replace the NRA badge, but taking the NRA name off it & de-emphasizing the importance of the program from a huge ugly badge to a ribbon would be nice - save some money too. If I had to propose something, how's this look (feel free to cut off the right side for simplicity):

[sandman]

We do the NRA marksmanship program at encampment now, as apparently do a few other wings, and award authority to wear the NRA badges

It true that we don't NEED a ribbon to replace the NRA badge, but taking the NRA name off it & de-emphasizing the importance of the program from a huge ugly badge to a ribbon would be nice - save some money too. If I had to propose something, how's this look (feel free to cut off the right side for simplicity):

Look's great! So, what roadblocks are in place that need to be moved in order to move forward with this idea?

[arajca]

Someone needs to write up a proposal with details including availability of the ribbon and devices to have sent up their chain. When finished, post it here and ask some others to do the same.

You may want to contact CAPHistorian on this board for advice/suggestions before finalizing your proposal.

[DNall]

One of our Wg CCs or CAC can recommend it to the national board for change, or we can sell the resident historian on here to pitch it thru the national historian to NB.

A couple things though. There's already a marksmanship program in place, in which we let cadets wear the NRA badges. So, what purpose does changing the bling accomplish?

I personally think the above ribbon looks better, removes the politically charged NRA name off the uniform (while still using their program), & puts something on proportional to the importance of the program... plus it looks like the AF ribbon, AF personnel will recognize it, and that's cool. I don't think it's that hard a sell since people that dislike the program get it de-emphasized on the uniform, and the people that do like it get a cool AF looking ribbon & potentially new life breathed into it since NB endorsed it again by making the ribbon.  

I'd also ask AF for permission to wear the civilian CMP badges or to purchase & wear the AF CMP badges for thsoe that qualify as civilians (both senior & cadet). A lot of cops shoot in those things & a lot of people would go try if they could get a badge out of it. It doesn't serve any purpose for seniors other than morale & to have them in the program to support cadets that want to get in it to earn a badge now that they can keep wearing when they go in the military.

My original intent in the thread tough was to figure out how we could expand the marksmanship program for the sake of cadet recruiting & retention, as well as helping them out if they go to the military. There's ideas above about how to get money for rifles to get started. And, I was hoping for a marksmanship focused NCSA. I was thinking hosted by a Special Tactics type unit so they could also get some exposure to Combat Controllers & Combat Weater, in addition to PJs that they can already see at PJOC; but, a program with SF might be fine too, it'd certainly be easier to arrange. If we could figure out w/ AF a way for them to shoot the AF program to earn the AF ribbon, which they could then carry into service, or even a dif ribbon that would convert to the AF ribbon on enlisting, that'd be real cool too. Of course that would involve M9/M16 shooting for expert over the course of the week they're there & intermingled with some AF career exploration stuff. Just liability factors to worry about.

I can get the ball rolling on some of this w/ CAC, but which facet of this are we trying to accomplish? And how can I sell it?

[sandman]

One of our Wg CCs or CAC can recommend it to the national board for change, or we can sell the resident historian on here to pitch it thru the national historian to NB.

Excellent

A couple things though. There's already a marksmanship program in place, in which we let cadets wear the NRA badges. So, what purpose does changing the bling accomplish?

Generally, I think the idea of "ownership" within the program is important. While the NRA badges are great (NRA is great!!), A CAP specific ribbon would serve to provide that ownership.

I personally think the above ribbon looks better, removes the politically charged NRA name off the uniform

Unfortunate, but true.

It looks like the AF ribbon, AF personnel will recognize it, and that's cool. I don't think it's that hard a sell since people that dislike the program get it de-emphasized on the uniform, and the people that do like it get a cool AF looking ribbon & potentially new life breathed into it since NB endorsed it again by making the ribbon.

I concur!

I'd also ask AF for permission to wear the civilian CMP badges or to purchase & wear the AF CMP badges for thsoe that qualify as civilians (both senior & cadet). A lot of cops shoot in those things & a lot of people would go try if they could get a badge out of it. It doesn't serve any purpose for seniors other than morale & to have them in the program to support cadets that want to get in it to earn a badge now that they can keep wearing when they go in the military.

Excellent! Aim High! (pun intended)

My original intent in the thread tough was to figure out how we could expand the marksmanship program for the sake of cadet recruiting & retention, as well as helping them out if they go to the military. There's ideas above about how to get money for rifles to get started. And, I was hoping for a marksmanship focused NCSA. I was thinking hosted by a Special Tactics type unit so they could also get some exposure to Combat Controllers & Combat Weater, in addition to PJs that they can already see at PJOC; but, a program with SF might be fine too, it'd certainly be easier to arrange. If we could figure out w/ AF a way for them to shoot the AF program to earn the AF ribbon, which they could then carry into service, or even a dif ribbon that would convert to the AF ribbon on enlisting, that'd be real cool too. Of course that would involve M9/M16 shooting for expert over the course of the week they're there & intermingled with some AF career exploration stuff. Just liability factors to worry about.

All teriffic ideas. Where are the "roadblocks"?

I can get the ball rolling on some of this w/ CAC, but which facet of this are we trying to accomplish? And how can I sell it?

I want it all!

[arajca]

I have several cadets in my unit wearing the NRA badges on their shirts since they do not have service coats. They earned them using pistols not rifles.

I think the ribbon idea looks more Air Force and less Army, hence I like the idea. I would drop the Marksman levels device, though. Not all courses/section/types use them.

Another nice thing about the NRA program is you can use air rifles and pistols to complete it. That helps reduce the cost.

[DNall]

Alright, I'll be at a CAC meeting Saturday. One of the Wg reps to region CAC will be there & I'm working with him on a couple other projects. I'll talk to him about it. I don't know how CAC or cadets in general would feel about this though. They love the bling, and they already get lots of ribbons.

The attachments I have to look around, but I'm pretty sure they're avail from an existing source. The ribbons would be new.

[Hawk200]

I'd also ask AF for permission to wear the civilian CMP badges or to purchase & wear the AF CMP badges for thsoe that qualify as civilians (both senior & cadet). A lot of cops shoot in those things & a lot of people would go try if they could get a badge out of it. It doesn't serve any purpose for seniors other than morale & to have them in the program to support cadets that want to get in it to earn a badge now that they can keep wearing when they go in the military.

The part I emphasized I could get on board with. The civilian flavor CMP badges are issued upon completion of the various requirements, so the individuals completing them have the badges already. Under this proposal, they don't have to buy anything new. And considering uniforms, it's always nice when you don't have to buy anything new.

And as long as those CMP badges would be authorized for CMP program accomplishments, I guess I wouldn't have any problems with a marksmanship ribbon for completion of different programs. But no need to replace an existing programs award with something that says "Civil Air Patrol" on it. It diminishes the original accomplishment.

Overall, I'd say do it for the general membership. There might be a few seniors interested in it, and that could be a draw in itself. I'd be interested myself, but more out of enjoyment of shooting in general, rather than just getting a new ribbon.

I don't have any issues with NRA, but it is a politically charged organization with the public at large. But a program could actually teach people that guns themselves are not bad. It's the criminals using them, or that force their use, that are a problem.

[MIKE]

DNall, I think it would be better with just S and E clasps instead of the ones in the pics.  JMHO.

[baronet68]

If you're not familiar with that program t goes like this... doesn't matter if you shoot perfect, you have to progress thru the levesl in order.
1) shoot a qualifier, get badge;
2) shoot marksman, get dif badge;
3) shoot marksman again, get "First Class" attachment for badge
4) shoot Sharpshooter, get dif badge;
5-13) shoot sharpshooter nine additional times with a new bar for each one (just wear one)
14) shoot expert, get fouth kind of badge;
15) shoot distinguished expert get attachment. can also attach pistol/rifle/shotgun to expert but have to walk up the chain on each of those.

The program we execute is just light rifle...

Not to be too much of a stickler here, but that course of progression isn't "Light Rifle", but is probably 4-Position Rifle or American Rifleman (3-position).  Light Rifle, like most of the NRA marksmanship programs, doesn't go through the Sharpshooter bars 1-9.  There are some courses, like High Power Sport Rifle, that top-out at Expert.

It true that we don't NEED a ribbon to replace the NRA badge, but taking the NRA name off it & de-emphasizing the importance of the program from a huge ugly badge to a ribbon would be nice - save some money too. If I had to propose something, how's this look (feel free to cut off the right side for simplicity):

If you insist on ditching the NRA badges in favor of a CAP ribbon, I'd recommend against creating new ribbon attachments because of manufacturing costs and deviation from the established standard of CAP attachments.  Do something based on the NRA ratings using the existing attachments:

Pro Marksman = Ribbon
Marksman = Ribbon + Bronze Star
Marksman 1st Class = Ribbon + 2 Bronze Stars
Sharpshooter = Ribbon + 3 Bronze Stars
Expert = Ribbon + Silver Star
Distinguished Expert = Ribbon + 2 Silver Stars

Forget the "bar" steps for Sharpshooters... one bar, or nine, they are still Sharpshooters. 


Don't forget that a lot of rifle and gun clubs have youth shooting programs and would love to host a CAP program, except that CAP is such a well-kept secret that they've never heard of us.  When it comes to fundraising, you do it just like any other money-making scheme, just with a different goal.  Look for major donations from gun clubs or deep discounts from local gun stores. 

For a unit shooting program, go with the less-expensive firearms.  While it would be nice to have top quality equipment that would allow everyone to become a Distinguished Marksman, go for the low-hanging fruit.  Less expensive equipment will allow more people to get to Sharpshooter, or maybe Expert.  I've qualified in several shooting categories with rifles in a price range from my $3,000 sniper rifle to my $5 Glendale .22 purchased 10 years ago at an estate auction.  Funny thing, that $5 rifle has gotten me to Expert and I only have a few legs to go in completing Distinguished Expert.

Last step is to drum up support from the cadets.  Sure, a lot of cadets say they want to do shooting, but sometimes it's like pulling teeth to get them to show up.

[DNall]

^and the expert weighs in, thanks!!

Vote for civilian CMP badge, got it. No problem there. I don't think the AF would allow us to get the AF badges anyway, and the CMP ones aren't bad, even if they're gold w/ the Army shield prominantly on them.

DNall, I think it would be better with just S and E clasps instead of the ones in the pics.  JMHO.

If you insist on ditching the NRA badges in favor of a CAP ribbon, I'd recommend against creating new ribbon attachments because of manufacturing costs and deviation from the established standard of CAP attachments.  Do something based on the NRA ratings using the existing attachments:

Pro Marksman = Ribbon
Marksman = Ribbon + Bronze Star
Marksman 1st Class = Ribbon + 2 Bronze Stars
Sharpshooter = Ribbon + 3 Bronze Stars
Expert = Ribbon + Silver Star
Distinguished Expert = Ribbon + 2 Silver Stars

The bars shown are avail as shown from a seperate manufacture for like 20 cents a piece. Gotta go look it up later tonight, but it's not something we'd be going out to make, otherwise I wouldn't have put it on, or at least it'd be chromed up to match every other AF thing. I got no problem with the above star system either. R/P doesn't work, their's shotgun also & air rifle. Plus that only shows what you got it for, not the level you're at, which would be the bigger thing.