Idea: CAP Marksmanship Ribbon

[Hawk200]

Maybe I am thinking too much into it.  Hawk 200 is right, the 36-2903 can be just as confusing as the 39-1.  It will be interesting to see what AF Services says. 

Yeah, it will be. I imagine that I'll get an answer in a few days. They don't seem to be instant responders on things. And I swear, I'll scream if they just reference 2903, and don't clarify.

[Hawk200]

Got to thinking about it, and something occurred to me. The Air Force specific Competition badges are actually issued by the Air Force, at least the first one is anyway.

Now, those badges probably run the Air Force about 10-15 bucks. Why would the Air Force commision a badge, purchase them, issue them, and then only permit their wear for one day?  The Fraud, Waste and Abuse guys would have a field day, and rightly so.

Most of the time, if the Air Force requires something to be worn, they will issue when you qualify for it. After that it's up to you to maintain that item in your clothing bag. It just doesn't make sense to me that they would issue an item for a single day of wear. I'm not implying that they are mandatory, since the AFI is unclear on that, I'd say it's unlikely.

Just random thoughts, thought I'd share. Still haven't heard back from Air Force Services yet, probably be awhile anyway.

[baronet68]

The badges that are authorized for wear by CAP are the Excellence in Competion, and Distinguished Rifle or Pistol Shot badges. Those badges are awarded by the Deputy of Civilian Marksmanship, under the Civilian Marksmanship Program.

While these awards are authorized for wear on the CAP uniform, there is a slight "technicality" in CAPM 39-1 that has been overlooked:

6-7. US Military Badges. CAP members may wear only the US military badges authorized for wear on the US Air Force uniform when earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority for service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States or its allies. The military badges authorized for wear on the CAP uniform and BDU are listed in Table 6-5. Before wearing any badge not listed in this table, contact National Headquarters/LMM for clarification. US Military badges are not authorized for wear on any of the CAP distinctive uniforms.

Emphasis added.


Since the Excellence-in-Competition and Distinguished Rifle/Pistol badges are listed in Table 6-5, it would appear that badges awarded to civilians by the Civilian Marksmanship Program are not authorized on the CAP uniform.

[Tony91]

When it comes to the legal issues about CAP having its own marksmanship program I think that could be easily dismissed with a few liability wayvers.

[SarDragon]

When it comes to the legal issues about CAP having its own marksmanship program I think that could be easily dismissed with a few liability wayvers.

First of all, that's "waiver".

Secondly, in today's litigious society, anyone with a hint of a deep pocket is fair game, and waivers can end up not meaning a lot.

[Hawk200]

The badges that are authorized for wear by CAP are the Excellence in Competion, and Distinguished Rifle or Pistol Shot badges. Those badges are awarded by the Deputy of Civilian Marksmanship, under the Civilian Marksmanship Program.

While these awards are authorized for wear on the CAP uniform, there is a slight "technicality" in CAPM 39-1 that has been overlooked:

6-7. US Military Badges. CAP members may wear only the US military badges authorized for wear on the US Air Force uniform when earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority for service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States or its allies. The military badges authorized for wear on the CAP uniform and BDU are listed in Table 6-5. Before wearing any badge not listed in this table, contact National Headquarters/LMM for clarification. US Military badges are not authorized for wear on any of the CAP distinctive uniforms.

Emphasis added.

Since the Excellence-in-Competition and Distinguished Rifle/Pistol badges are listed in Table 6-5, it would appear that badges awarded to civilians by the Civilian Marksmanship Program are not authorized on the CAP uniform.

That's a good point. So basically, you couldn't wear the generic Excellence in Competition or Distinguished Shot badges. It would have to be one of the military specific badges.

Which, in a way, is kinda cruddy. Police officers and many others actually compete in those matches beside military, but they wouldn't be able to wear one of those badges in a manner that would be compliant with 39-1. Even though they met the exact same requirements.

[Johnny Yuma]

Hey Y'all, I got an idea...

I shoot highpower rifle competition and have shot more than a few "Leg" matches to try and get my Distinguished Rifleman as a civilian. It ain't easy. Only the top 10 percent get points, top 1/3 get 10 points, the next 1/3 get 8 and the last third get 6. In order to earn the badge you must earn 30 points, of which one must be a 10 point "Leg". Camp Perry is the exception, where all Leg points given there are 10 pointers. The USAF badges are the same device that is issued to civilians by CMP.

Those are pretty much the rules for rifle and pistol badges. The international badge, however, is earned by placing in an ISU match in World championship, like the Olympics or other international games.

These are the CMP rules for civilians, each branch has it's own rules, like the Corps. They have to earn X number of points through their Excellence in Marksmanship program which looks a LOT like the old rifleman program.

Army issues "leg" points in their combat rifle matches, I'm not up to speed on their regs to comment much more.

IIRC the USAF regs state that airmen/officers who get their 30 Leg points for Distinguished may do so at the civilian matches, so requesting to wear a USAF Distinguished Rifleman badge in a CAP uniform I don't believe would be too far out of line.

Anyway here's the idea: Authorize a CAP marksmanship ribbon for cadets and seniors who have shot expert in any NRA firearm discipline. Let's sweeten the pot here and authorize an R and P device designating Rifle and Pistol. How about a silver R and P for those who make Distinguished Expert?

In exchange, the cadet medals go away. One can rack up a long ladder of medals if one has the means and this would make things easier for all involved. The only medals allowed would be Distinguished Rifleman, Distinguished Pistol and International badges.


Johnny Yuma

[DNall]

A couple ideas were expressed...
1) Keep NRA, but de-emphasize the too easily earned ugly (on AF) badges by going to a ribbon w/ devices up thru the layers

2)  Junk NRA to avoid PC-nazis, & get someting out of it that carries over to the AF.
a) CMP badges - hard to earn, can wear in all services
b) work way up to shooting for AF smal arms expert robbon. which again would be worn in all services, but reqires a change since it's awarded to mil personnel.

[arajca]

A couple ideas were expressed...
1) Keep NRA, but de-emphasize the too easily earned ugly (on AF) badges by going to a ribbon w/ devices up thru the layers

Uses already proven and familiar system.

2) Junk NRA to avoid PC-nazis, & get someting out of it that carries over to the AF.

Not many CAP members go into the AF. More go into the Army and Marines (based on comments by others). So carrying over to the AF is mostly a moot point.

a) CMP badges - hard to earn, can wear in all services

Hard enough to earn that it almost becomes an elitist badge and, IMO, well beyond the resources of a typical CAP cadet or senior.

b) work way up to shooting for AF smal arms expert robbon. which again would be worn in all services, but reqires a change since it's awarded to mil personnel.

Due to lack of facilities, this also becomes an "elitist" badge.

[Hawk200]

a) CMP badges - hard to earn, can wear in all services

Hard enough to earn that it almost becomes an elitist badge and, IMO, well beyond the resources of a typical CAP cadet or senior.

It is an elitist badge. It's for those elite that did something to earn it. And there are a few clubs that create what amounts to "scholarships" for some younger folks.

Then again, getting a pilots license could be considered elitist. And getting a pilots license can end up costing far more than earning a CMP badge.

The USAF badges are the same device that is issued to civilians by CMP.

Not quite. They are different badges, but it's mostly a case of cosmetics rather than overall design. The CMP will never hand you an Air Force badge. They may give you their own, but it's good for a shadow box or something, you would never be able to legtimately wear it on an Air Force uniform.

Anyway here's the idea: Authorize a CAP marksmanship ribbon for cadets and seniors who have shot expert in any NRA firearm discipline. Let's sweeten the pot here and authorize an R and P device designating Rifle and Pistol. How about a silver R and P for those who make Distinguished Expert?

You know I don't understand this line of reasoning I keep seeing. Seems like something has to have CAP's name on it to be of any value. There are Civilian Marksmanship Program badges that are awarded once you complete certain criteria. Why does CAP have to make something for that in the first place? There are already badges produced, just encourage people to look into them.

This idea that a program can only be worth something only so long as Civil Air Patrol's name is on it can be a problem. Some might see it as unfounded hubris. How much different is it than writing your name on someone elses test, and turning it in as your own?

In exchange, the cadet medals go away. One can rack up a long ladder of medals if one has the means and this would make things easier for all involved. The only medals allowed would be Distinguished Rifleman, Distinguished Pistol and International badges.

There are no medals for shooting in CAP. There is a Junior NRA Marksmanship badge that  may only be worn by cadets. I've only ever seen one cadet wearing one. They are rare. Rarer than Spaatz cadets, even.

[baronet68]

There are no medals for shooting in CAP. There is a Junior NRA Marksmanship badge that  may only be worn by cadets. I've only ever seen one cadet wearing one. They are rare. Rarer than Spaatz cadets, even.

You need to venture out here to WAWG where there are two very active marskmanship programs and almost every squadron in the wing has 1+ cadets wearing a marksmanship badge.  My squadron currently has about 7 cadets sporting such badges so they are definitely not as rare as you might think. 

I see no need to create a "CAP flavored" badge/ribbon for marksmanship.  If you're looking for some way to add legitimacy to the award, then making it CAP flavored is (in my opinion) a step backwards.  The NRA is probably the most recognizable and legitimate shooting organizations out there.  Putting the NRA's name behind an award worn on a cadet's uniform communicates to people that CAP isn't training cadets for combat (it also deflates any wannabees trying to tell people that they received some kind of "super-secret weapons training" by US Special Forces troops).

[DNall]

I see no need to create a "CAP flavored" badge/ribbon for marksmanship.  If you're looking for some way to add legitimacy to the award, then making it CAP flavored is (in my opinion) a step backwards.  The NRA is probably the most recognizable and legitimate shooting organizations out there.  Putting the NRA's name behind an award worn on a cadet's uniform communicates to people that CAP isn't training cadets for combat (it also deflates any wannabees trying to tell people that they received some kind of "super-secret weapons training" by US Special Forces troops).

Not seeking legitimacy, seeking loss of stupid looking NRA badge that is pretty easy to earn in one day & with bad standards for how.

We are training them for combat, and life. Don't forget that the cadet program was initially established to create a pool of qualified candidates to enter AF pilot training. The mission since then has only broadened slightly. Of course we publish a non-committal statement saying we're preparing them to be of service to community/state/nation. Well that really means the military & if they do not choose that route then they'll still have the advantage of all the skills we've given them. AFROTC has a similiar mission statement & the only reaon they exist it to create AF officers. The key CAP wants to get across to members & parents is that we won't push tem into the military or any particular service. We'll give them the skills & information to succeed, then stand out of the way & let them determine the path they'll take.

Super-secret hasn't been mentioned. WE already have national activities w/ PJs. I think CCT & combat weather are about core jobs more associated w/ the AE background we give cadets. It would be appropriate to give them exposure there. What was mentioned was a National Cadet Special Activity (hardly secret) to shoot for the AF ribbon the idea being to put something over the top of that event to make it more fun & give them exposure to more things the AF does & that their training applies to.

[Guardrail]

Not seeking legitimacy, seeking loss of stupid looking NRA badge that is pretty easy to earn in one day & with bad standards for how.

That's why I propose a CAP Marksmanship ribbon.

We are training them for combat, and life. Don't forget that the cadet program was initially established to create a pool of qualified candidates to enter AF pilot training. The mission since then has only broadened slightly. Of course we publish a non-committal statement saying we're preparing them to be of service to community/state/nation.

No sir, we aren't training them for combat.  While it is true that the cadet program was originally established for the purpose of training citizens to be Army Air Corps pilot candidates, that argument doesn't work.  The goal of the CAP cadet program is just like that of AFJROTC: produce better citizens for America.  And I don't think the statement saying we're preparing them to be of service to community/state/nation is one of non-committal.  It's just part of the Cadet Oath. 

Well that really means the military & if they do not choose that route then they'll still have the advantage of all the skills we've given them. AFROTC has a similiar mission statement & the only reason they exist it to create AF officers.

The purpose of AFROTC is to produce officers for the Air Force and better citizens for America.

The key CAP wants to get across to members & parents is that we won't push tem into the military or any particular service. We'll give them the skills & information to succeed, then stand out of the way & let them determine the path they'll take.

This is true, DNall.

Super-secret hasn't been mentioned. WE already have national activities w/ PJs. I think CCT & combat weather are about core jobs more associated w/ the AE background we give cadets. It would be appropriate to give them exposure there. What was mentioned was a National Cadet Special Activity (hardly secret) to shoot for the AF ribbon the idea being to put something over the top of that event to make it more fun & give them exposure to more things the AF does & that their training applies to.

I think with regard to super-secret, Capt Moore was referring to people who wear proposed marksmanship ribbon and lie about the circumstances of how they earned it. 

IIRC, the idea of an NCSA devoted to marksmanship was your idea, sir.  You may want to include that in a seperate topic, so it's clearer to people.  Great idea though. 

[DNall]

The NCSA idea was the only thing I saw mentioning spec ops type folks, as I naturally took that as his meaning. Wear of a ribbon not correctly awarded is not super-secret, it's super-stupid.

As you say, paraphrased from AFROTC, they produce leaders for the AF & better citizens for America. That's pretty much exactly what CAP does. We do so by providing our cadets with the skills they need to succeed in military training & careers. The AF pays us to do this to create a pool of candidate from which they can recruit. Just exactly like during WWII when we trained youth to create a pool from which the AAF could recruit to pilot training. It's linear. Of course these same skills are very useful in the outside world as well, just as they would be if you'd gained them in the military & then came out to the world. The cadet oath is what it is to cover all those bases w/o freaking out parents & society into thinking we're running the hitler youth over here or something. Don't for a second think that the AF is paying for us to teach civics lessons though. Every penny they beg congress to give us is self-serving, and you should never lose sight of that.

[SAR-EMT1]

NCSA for marksmanship: I swear we'd have higher recruiting levels. ... for cadets anyway. But Id also know you'd have a 'few' SMs apply to that as well. Any chance of having the ARA or Remington/Colt etc sponsor ?

[DNall]

Probably if we stuck to NRA & ran it under their youth program.

Best case I can see for an expanded program is levels of NRA (which I like indicated as a ribbon over the over the ugly, all too common, over-emphasizing the program NRA badges). Then maxing that out work on something to tie in to CMP. Ask AF for permission to wear civilian CMP badges or to purchase/wear AF CMP badges - can't see them turning that down. Also ask about the possiblity of changing the rules to allow CAP caets to shoot for AF small arms expert ribbon - which can be done the way AFROTC does it on the college level w/ non-contract cadets.

I think it's important if you do a marksman NCSA that you have a strong tie-in w/ AF. Otherwise those kids are going to end up in the Army/Marines. We don't do enough to expose them to the non-PJ special tactics jobs, which are AE related. Tey got some cool toys & don't mind practicing a mock airfield siezure now & then. It just sorta made sense ya know.

[Dragoon]

I think it's important if you do a marksman NCSA that you have a strong tie-in w/ AF. Otherwise those kids are going to end up in the Army/Marines. We don't do enough to expose them to the non-PJ special tactics jobs, which are AE related. Tey got some cool toys & don't mind practicing a mock airfield siezure now & then. It just sorta made sense ya know.

That's a very good point.  Perhaps some kind of SP orientation school?

Of course, it would be much easier if USAF would just come out and admit that they are interested in the Cadet Program for recruits, rather than just creating better citizens out of the goodness of their hearts.  Because without that statement of intent, we will always shy away from the overly martial stuff, and towards putting kids in an AE T-shirt and letting them fly gliders.

[DNall]

Of course, it would be much easier if USAF would just come out and admit that they are interested in the Cadet Program for recruits, rather than just creating better citizens out of the goodness of their hearts.  Because without that statement of intent, we will always shy away from the overly martial stuff, and towards putting kids in an AE T-shirt and letting them fly gliders.

They do that & we're the hitler youth on page one of the NY Times. You can't recruit 12yos into a program the govt openly admits is even partially abut ebing a pipeline to the military. They might be able to make the point internally to our members, but it can't be formally on teh record that way.

[sandman]

I think it's important if you do a marksman NCSA that you have a strong tie-in w/ AF. Otherwise those kids are going to end up in the Army/Marines. We don't do enough to expose them to the non-PJ special tactics jobs, which are AE related. Tey got some cool toys & don't mind practicing a mock airfield siezure now & then. It just sorta made sense ya know.

That's a very good point.  Perhaps some kind of SP orientation school?

Of course, it would be much easier if USAF would just come out and admit that they are interested in the Cadet Program for recruits, rather than just creating better citizens out of the goodness of their hearts.  Because without that statement of intent, we will always shy away from the overly martial stuff, and towards putting kids in an AE T-shirt and letting them fly gliders.

Not a bad idea. In comparison, the Navy Sea Cadets have the Master at Arms program (they are issued a badge from the Navy but can only be worn during USNSCC meetings and while performing MA duties) as well as SEAL team training (with warfare device), SWCC training (again with warfare device), and EOD training (yes, a cool warfare device too)

As you know, USNSCC also has flight wings (air warfare device), silver for solo and gold for obtaining a pilot's ticket. Caveat: The USNSCC does not have flight encampments as far as I know.

[Hawk200]

They do that & we're the hitler youth on page one of the NY Times. You can't recruit 12yos into a program the govt openly admits is even partially abut ebing a pipeline to the military. They might be able to make the point internally to our members, but it can't be formally on teh record that way.

Good point, DNall, but it needed to be in a much bigger font, it shouldn't be missed.