Idea: CAP Marksmanship Ribbon

[Guardrail]

Here's a photo I found of Air Force personnel wearing the CMP Marksmanship badges. 

The site (Air Force Sports) also has the different AF Marksmanship Badges pictured with descriptions of each.  Here's the link:  http://www.afsv.af.mil/AFSports/Sports/Shooting.htm

I found out that the Air Force marksmanship badges may only be worn when awarded (per AFI 36-2903, Table 5.1), and the OPR is HQ AFSVA, not CMP (even though they are CMP badges adopted for the Air Force).

That's why I've never seen any Air Force personnel wear the badge.     

[Major Carrales]

Here's a photo I found of Air Force personnel wearing the CMP Marksmanship badges. 

The site (Air Force Sports) also has the different AF Marksmanship Badges pictured with descriptions of each.  Here's the link:  http://www.afsv.af.mil/AFSports/Sports/Shooting.htm

I found out that the Air Force marksmanship badges may only be worn when awarded (per AFI 36-2903, Table 5.1), and the OPR is HQ AFSVA, not CMP (even though they are CMP badges adopted for the Air Force).

That's why I've never seen any Air Force personnel wear the badge.     

It look like their wearing CAP Corporate uniforms.  I'm not up on all the USAF uniform regs/manuals, do they wear white shirts with USAF shoulder marks?  Or is the color of the photo distoring to "white" when it shoudl be blue?

[SarDragon]

AF uniforms. The nametags are a dead giveaway. Just a little bit of overexposure in the pic.

[Major Carrales]

AF uniforms. The nametags are a dead giveaway. Just a little bit of overexposure in the pic.

That what I thought...

[Major Lord]

MY understanding is that we can wear the Airforce Handgun Qualification ribbon by simply taking the M9 qualification course. Any Senior could theoretically do this if they could find an AF instructor willing to let them participate in the formal class.

Why do we need to have cadets learn to shoot? In case they need to perforate the godless bodies of the enemies of freedom! (I thought you would know that...)

More than one or two of my Cadet lad's have seen enough trigger time to last a life time. They were [darn] glad of their CAP and NRA rife training. Military rifle training (especially the Air Force) is very minimal (except the Marines of course, they get all the good stuff!)

[AlphaSigOU]

MY understanding is that we can wear the Airforce Handgun Qualification ribbon by simply taking the M9 qualification course. Any Senior could theoretically do this if they could find an AF instructor willing to let them participate in the formal class.

You get the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon not for just qualifying, but by shooting Expert.

[DNall]

I don't see any real need for a CAP marksmanship ribbon. We have no mission whatsoever that requires anyone in CAP to be shooting anyone or anything. And the fact that we are restricted from carrying firearms in the first place is sufficient reason not create a ribbon for it. It doesn't fit us.

Wearing the CMP badges is basically honoring someone elses award, usually the military's recognition of firearm skills. Not much different than honoring a military officers grade. At least from my viewpoint, YMMV.

We shouldn't have to make up our program to recognize anything, and that's what creating a CAP marksman ribbon would be. Although, I consider it equitable for CAP members to shoot on an Air Force range, taught by Air Force range personnel, and receive the Air Force ribbon. That would be allowing the Air Force to present us awards of accomplishments. Not to mention, we wouldn't have to create anything.

First, I agree that we should use soemone else's program over a series of developmental stages leading to the opportunity to shoot for the AF ribbon under AF supervision, possibly as a NCSA. Any idea about a CAP ribbon would be de-emphasizing the mis-match badges.

Now why should we be doing this? Cause cadet programs is differnt than ES, it's about creating a pool of great motivated folks for the military to pilfer, & if they don't go that route it still serves them well. A shooting program builds confidence, esprit de corps, etc & it keeps people amped up about potential military service. Most AF personnel aren't ever going to carry a rifle in a combat zone, but that doesn't stop them from having to shoot. We're just one more step away, in giving these kids every head-start before they get there. Plus, I hadn't seen any statistics & wouldn't let the AF see them, but I think we send more cadets to Army/Marines than AF enlisted service.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Dennis:

Don't bother hiding the stats from Big Mother Blue.  They already have them.

There was a BIG dustup in the 1990's about the cadet program feeding everybody except the Air Force, and they polled the cadets, recent enlistees, and recent former cadets.  The most frequent responses were:

1.  CAP emphasizes ground operations tasks for cadets.  They end up feeling at home in the woods, they learn to read topographic charts, and they then tend to gravitate to the gravel-grinding services.

2.  The Air Force did not offer them the physical and mental challenges offered by the Marines and Army.

[DNall]

Sure I remember, and I don't think anything has changed. We push more money at o-flights sometimes anyway. AE is supposed to get pushed harder... I think you have to sell the military first, the AF, then let the recruiters close & cadets close the deal for themelves. I think these kinds of programs are good for that, and a NCSA like mentioned above would help sell the AF the same way the Navy waves thier SEALs around.

[Hawk200]

We shouldn't have to make up our program to recognize anything, and that's what creating a CAP marksman ribbon would be.

Not necessarily.  Like I said, CAP could have its own marksmanship ribbon without having to create its own marksmanship program.

Then it's still a duplication of effort, not with a program but a decoration. In the manner you suggest it would be awarding a member with our dec by accomplishing a program that wasn't ours.

An additional note is that there are people in the military that recognize those badges. Let them see our members with it. If those military members see a CAP member with a CMP badge, then it shows the military personnel that our members can and do accomplish some of the same things they can do. It gives us "points" with them.

I also agree with some of the other folks here that the Air Force should award more of their decorations to us. It would create more of CAP being part of their "Total Force" concept. And that can help us.

Although, I consider it equitable for CAP members to shoot on an Air Force range, taught by Air Force range personnel, and receive the Air Force ribbon. That would be allowing the Air Force to present us awards of accomplishments. Not to mention, we wouldn't have to create anything.

I feel the same way, Hawk200.  However, isin't the AF Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon only authorized for AF personnel who rate it in the AF and choose to wear it on the CAP uniform?  I was told this by a CAP officer a while back.  Not sure if he was correct or not. 

I believe, with our current regulations, that is correct. I would like to see it change.

Presently, having cadets shoot on ranges is very tightly controlled. And nowadays, there is an issue of funding. Ammo costs money, and I don't know if the military agencies that let us fire with them before can really spare a whole lot. It's a tough position.

[Hawk200]

I found out that the Air Force marksmanship badges may only be worn when awarded (per AFI 36-2903, Table 5.1), and the OPR is HQ AFSVA, not CMP (even though they are CMP badges adopted for the Air Force).

The CMP program presents criteria, and does actually award a badge when you complete the various phases of their program.

The part where it gets funny is when it comes to your particular branch of service. Each branch uses an extremely similar badge, with markings that are unique to the branch of service. The Distinguished Marsman badges only differ in the hanger, which states the branch of service.

The Civilian Marksmanship Program may award any badge that you have met the requirements for. However, it is not a military award. To wear it as a uniform item, there are steps you must take.

For the Air Force, you send all your documented accumulated points to Air Force Services. They will verify, and register your participation in the program. If you meet the requirements, they will issue orders and one of the Air Force specific Competition badges.

The Air Force cannot actually award a CMP badge, but they can give you the AF specific one if you have qualified for the CMP badge.

Probably clear as mud, I imagine.

[Hawk200]

Just for info, here's a link to photos of the Air Force pistol badges:

http://www.airforceshooting.org/eicbadgs.html

I can't seem to find any on the Air Force Rifle badges. Maybe someone else can.

[Guardrail]

I found out that the Air Force marksmanship badges may only be worn when awarded (per AFI 36-2903, Table 5.1), and the OPR is HQ AFSVA, not CMP (even though they are CMP badges adopted for the Air Force).

The CMP program presents criteria, and does actually award a badge when you complete the various phases of their program.

The part where it gets funny is when it comes to your particular branch of service. Each branch uses an extremely similar badge, with markings that are unique to the branch of service. The Distinguished Marksman badges only differ in the hanger, which states the branch of service.

The Civilian Marksmanship Program may award any badge that you have met the requirements for. However, it is not a military award. To wear it as a uniform item, there are steps you must take.

For the Air Force, you send all your documented accumulated points to Air Force Services. They will verify, and register your participation in the program. If you meet the requirements, they will issue orders and one of the Air Force specific Competition badges.

The Air Force cannot actually award a CMP badge, but they can give you the AF specific one if you have qualified for the CMP badge.

Probably clear as mud, I imagine.

Yes, Hawk200.  However, even if you have your orders with you, AFI-36-2903 makes it clear that the badge/badges may only be worn on the day of awarding.

This is probably different for the other services, esp. the Army and Marines, who have marksmanship badges that may be worn on the uniform after the day they are awarded.   

[Hawk200]

Yes, Hawk200.  However, even if you have your orders with you, AFI-36-2903 makes it clear that the badge/badges may only be worn on the day of awarding.

I think I misunderstand something here, the AFI shows wear criteria for wear. And the award is a permanent one.

[Guardrail]

Just for info, here's a link to photos of the Air Force pistol badges:

http://www.airforceshooting.org/eicbadgs.html

I can't seem to find any on the Air Force Rifle badges. Maybe someone else can.

Found them.  Here they are:

 



From: http://www.afsv.af.mil/AFSports/Sports/Shooting.htm

[Guardrail]

Yes, Hawk200.  However, even if you have your orders with you, AFI-36-2903 makes it clear that the badge/badges may only be worn on the day of awarding.

I think I misunderstand something here, the AFI shows wear criteria for wear. And the award is a permanent one.

Hmmm... maybe I misunderstand something.  Where does the AFI say the award is permanent?  Perhaps the award itself is permanent, but may only be worn on the day of awarding. 

[Hawk200]

Yes, Hawk200.  However, even if you have your orders with you, AFI-36-2903 makes it clear that the badge/badges may only be worn on the day of awarding.

I think I misunderstand something here, the AFI shows wear criteria for wear. And the award is a permanent one.

Hmmm... maybe I misunderstand something.  Where does the AFI say the award is permanent?  Perhaps the award itself is permanent, but may only be worn on the day of awarding. 

Why would there be wear criteria for a badge that can only be worn once? There wouldn't be, it would be a waste of space in the reg. You may qualify for a badge, but you can't wear it until it's awarded in some manner. That may be some kind of paperwork, or it may have to be documented in your records. That is "awarded".

When I was in the Air Force initially, maintenance badges were awarded. I met all the qualifications for it, but couldn't wear it until the commander signed off paperwork for me to wear it. It's the same idea here. Until someone signs off on it, it isn't awarded.

For Air Force tech schools nowadays, they give the graduates the badge for their field they are now qualified in. And it's documented in records that they recieved it.

I think the "when awarded" is being confused as the "day of award". They're not the same thing. The wording is completely different. And if it was based on the "day of award" then just about everyone in the military has violated that, and noone would be authorized to wear their badges. And I doubt that's the case.

[Guardrail]

Well, the thing is that Table 5.2 of AFI 36-2903 (2 Aug 06) says, "If individual wears the [AF marksmanship badge]... And [when awarded]... OPR HQ AFSVA."  It doesn't say after awarding, it just says, "when awarded."  It's a little confusing. 

If it were to be worn retroactively, it would say something like "Retroactive" or "may be worn after day of awarding" or something like that.

The AF Marksmanship Badge and the Scuba badge are the only awards in any table of the AFI 36-2903 that may be worn "when awarded."  Neither of which are included in table 5.1, Display of Badges. 

This leads me to believe that the AF Marksmanship badges and scuba badge may only be worn when awarded (i.e. the day of awarding).  The day of awarding is when the badge is awarded.

[Hawk200]

Well, the thing is that Table 5.2 of AFI 36-2903 (2 Aug 06) says, "If individual wears the [AF marksmanship badge]... And [when awarded]... OPR HQ AFSVA."  It doesn't say after awarding, it just says, "when awarded."  It's a little confusing. 

If it were to be worn retroactively, it would say something like "Retroactive" or "may be worn after day of awarding" or something like that.

The AF Marksmanship Badge and the Scuba badge are the only awards in any table of the AFI 36-2903 that may be worn "when awarded."  Neither of which are included in table 5.1, Display of Badges. 

This leads me to believe that the AF Marksmanship badges and scuba badge may only be worn when awarded (i.e. the day of awarding).  The day of awarding is when the badge is awarded.

I think that may be thinking a little too much into it. Out of curiousity, I sent an email to Air Force services asking for clarification on it.

Then again, 2903 can be just as confusing as 39-1. The wear of various insignia is inconsistent between genders in certain places where it shouldn't be. Don't get me wrong, females wear certain badges in different places due to "anatomical differences" (and we're going to leave it at that  )

As far as the scuba badge goes, I've seen numerous people in the Air Force wearing it in service dress, and not all in Special Ops. There is no way in the world that someone would ever be "awarded" the scuba badge in service dress. As far as it goes, the member being awarded a scuba badge may not be wearing a uniform at all. They'd probably be in swim trunks or something.

[Guardrail]

Maybe I am thinking too much into it.  Hawk 200 is right, the 36-2903 can be just as confusing as the 39-1.  It will be interesting to see what AF Services says.