Foreign Military Decorations on the CAP uniform

[Hawk200]

Optional, like when your MTI says "now I can't tell you to get the USAF symbol embroidered on your lightweight blue jacket, but I can 'highly suggest' you do it otherwise your going to be the only ones without it at graduation thus looking like idiots" 

When the chief says "do it" you do it.  Sure you could stand your ground and be a non conformist....as my TI said to me "it will reflect".

Perfect examples: command by opinion of the ethically challenged. Think about it.

[lordmonar]

Optional, like when your MTI says "now I can't tell you to get the USAF symbol embroidered on your lightweight blue jacket, but I can 'highly suggest' you do it otherwise your going to be the only ones without it at graduation thus looking like idiots" 

When the chief says "do it" you do it.  Sure you could stand your ground and be a non conformist....as my TI said to me "it will reflect".

Perfect examples: command by opinion of the ethically challenged. Think about it.

No....it is called setting the example.

It is setting standards and getting your people to follow them.

We wear a badge to show pride in our career field.  We set the standard by saying "I wear may badge....and you not wearing your badge lessens the impact of our goals....get with the program."

Of course it is "optional".......but that means your chain of command has the option to make it mandatory or not.  They can say  "no USAF crests on your jackets" or they can say "Everyone wears the crest" or the can say nothing about it.

Optional in the regulations does not mean your chain of command CAN'T mandate it, nor does it mean they CAN'T ban it.

Sort of like uniform of the day.....Short Sleeves Blues....no tie....no ribbons.  But ties and ribbons are optional in the regs....if you wear a tie and ribbons then you are disobeying an order. 

This is not an ethical violation....this is simply a different way of motivating your personnel.

And yes....it is command by opinion....welcome to the world........90% of the things you will be forced to do by your boss will be based on his opinion.  You can stand on your "rights" and fight it....more power to you....but you can't complain later when you get passed over for the promotion or cool job.

There are times when it is right and proper for you to buck the system and say "this is wrong"....i.e. Rosa Parks and that sort of situation....but over wearing a badge or not?  Pick your battles wisely young one.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Isn't it somewhat like State vs Federal law? State can set higher restrictions, but cannot loosen federal laws. (Such as the whole marijuana debate in a number of states right now).

[lordmonar]

Yes.

In a perfect world....if it says optional it means optional.

But commanders can dictate which option they wanted.

Black/brown/green (Way back in the day) T-shirts......leadership could say Everyone Black, Everyone any color but Green, or what ever.....and that was a legal order.

If you really did not have the money for it......let the chief know and it would get fixed (did this many times myself for airman who I know did not have the cash to get their badges sewn on).

So like I said...when the command chief said...everyone get a mess dress......he was watching.....and if you did not comply it would reflect.

The same story applies to non military duties.  It was expected that all NCO and particulary the SNCO to be a member of the SNCO council, top three or what ever they called it locally.  You had to pay dues....and you had to particpate.  If you did not...and did not have a good excuse......it was not like you would get a bad EPR or get an article 15.....but it did reflect on you as a leader and you had to either live with it or overcome it if you wanted to progress.

Yes this all sounds smarmy....but as far as office politics goes...it is pretty tame.  But you could see by peoples commitment to the "proffession" of being an NCO who was or was not going to move up.

And this goes to the idea of establishing a Profession of Arms.  Jumping through the hoops and wearing the badges and symbols of our profession is all part of establishing and maintaining that profession.

[AC]

Well said, sir.  :clap:

[lordmonar]

Well said, sir.  :clap:

Thank you....and let me say I have always admired the Para Weather guys.  You guys rock!  Thanks for your service.

[Hawk200]

Optional, like when your MTI says "now I can't tell you to get the USAF symbol embroidered on your lightweight blue jacket, but I can 'highly suggest' you do it otherwise your going to be the only ones without it at graduation thus looking like idiots" 

When the chief says "do it" you do it.  Sure you could stand your ground and be a non conformist....as my TI said to me "it will reflect".

Perfect examples: command by opinion of the ethically challenged. Think about it.

No....it is called setting the example.

It is setting standards and getting your people to follow them.

We wear a badge to show pride in our career field.  We set the standard by saying "I wear may badge....and you not wearing your badge lessens the impact of our goals....get with the program."

Of course it is "optional".......but that means your chain of command has the option to make it mandatory or not.  They can say  "no USAF crests on your jackets" or they can say "Everyone wears the crest" or the can say nothing about it.

Optional in the regulations does not mean your chain of command CAN'T mandate it, nor does it mean they CAN'T ban it.

Sort of like uniform of the day.....Short Sleeves Blues....no tie....no ribbons.  But ties and ribbons are optional in the regs....if you wear a tie and ribbons then you are disobeying an order. 

This is not an ethical violation....this is simply a different way of motivating your personnel.

And yes....it is command by opinion....welcome to the world........90% of the things you will be forced to do by your boss will be based on his opinion.  You can stand on your "rights" and fight it....more power to you....but you can't complain later when you get passed over for the promotion or cool job.

There are times when it is right and proper for you to buck the system and say "this is wrong"....i.e. Rosa Parks and that sort of situation....but over wearing a badge or not?  Pick your battles wisely young one.

Seems like that's part of the problem. Humor those above you and conform for your own sake. It perpetuates the cycle of "command by opinion."

Given the choice, do you follow the regulations (in a general sense), or do you follow the orders given below that level? "I was only following orders" presents problems when there were standing orders above that level that are contradicting (and published with far more knowledge and experience than the local level). You're first duty is to the organization (specifically, the Air Force) that you joined and it's mission, not to an individual that feels they are more knowledgeable than the whole.

Command through opinion, rather than supporting the mission is an issue. Wearing a badge, or purchasing a mess dress, is not supporting a mission. And having to order is another example of gaming. If you truly inspired pride, people would want to show it. You can't order pride. It's the same principle as "The beatings will continue until the morale improves." It's funny, because it's an obvious oxymoron. But people don't seem to consider (or want to consider) the other oxymorons they face everyday.

My thoughts on the matter are not an issue of youth, I am probably a good bit older than you think. It's a matter of being raised to do the right thing, instead of the convenient thing. Granted, there are times when regulation must be carefully considered for the "right thing", but that is rare. If something is wrong, there are ways to get it changed. You follow what is presented at the top, don't pick and choose like it's a cafeteria line.

[PHall]

Pat, your examples are what happens in the Active Duty Air Force. A lot of that crap doesn't happen in the Guard/Reserve.
Biggest reason why, no uniform allowance in the Guard/Reserve.

You got an unserviceable shirt? You go to your squadron who does a form for you to take to Clothing Sales and you get your new shirt.
You then take it to the alterations shop where they sew on the stripes your squadron provided to you for free. Your squadron foots the bill.

When Commanders have to actually pay for the optional items, very few of them are "required" for wear.

Funny how that works!

Of course there is nothing stopping a member from paying for this stuff out of their pocket either, you just don't paid for it, but you can take it off your taxes.
Sorta like CAP.

[Hawk200]

When Commanders have to actually pay for the optional items, very few of them are "required" for wear.

Another aspect I did not consider. But maybe it should be implemented. To any commander that wants something for personal reasons, pose the question: "You willing to pay for it?" If the answer is yes, then do so. If the answer is no, then it doesn't get done.

[lordmonar]

No....sorry that's not quite how it works.

If an airman who is given a LAWFUL ORDER that is contradictory to the regulations (please note my distinction here) his duty is to follow orders.

If someone up higher has a problem with me following that order...I won't be in trouble....but the bozo who gave the order would be.

The Command by Opinion that you speak of......is something that we always do.

We as SNCOs set the standards for the NCO corps.  We maintain those standards.  Everthing from not wearing blue jeans and t-shirts in the NCO club to wearing our ribbons and badges on our blues.  It is the PROFESSION OF ARMS.....that we are creating.

The "right thing" that you mention is what we are talking about.  It is the "right thing" to make sure all SNCOs buy and wear a mess dress instead of a Semi-formal.  It is the "right thing" to insure all enlisted wear their AFSC badges and ribbons.  Since this is not contrary to regulations it is not anywhere an ethics thing.  Optional means optional.....but anyone in the chain of command can give an order.

First and formost we must follow lawful orders.  An order that is contrary to the regulations in not necessarily an unlawful order.

Establishing and maintaining the standards of the Profession of Arms directly supports the mission as it is necessary to establish a professional military to accomplish said mission.

You are right I can't order pride.   But I can stop practices that are contrary to the efforts to bring pride to the Profession of Arms.

One of the reasons why I hate the idea of short stacking ribbons is that it reduces the prestige of the "lower" ribbons.  Why they may not mean a thing to the CMSgt with a BSM, DFC, and PH......the Good Conduct Medal means a lot to the SrA who finally earned his.  When the Chief decides it is not important enough for him to wear it....he spits on everyone who has pride in his GCM.

Same thing with the badge.  They may hate it.  they may hate it a lot.....but they need to shut the hell up and get with the program....this is not about individuals but about the Profession of Arms.

Now the CMSgt or the MTI could spend the next hour and a half explaining the whole concept of the Profession of Arms to his audience.....or he can simply say "I Strongly Suggest You Do This" and press on to other matters.

Given the choice....I follow the orders of those appointed over me, the regulations, the USAF's core values and my personal understanding of the mission and its needs.  When those come into conflict I seek advice from my chain of command.

I think one of our disconnects is that as a MSgt I was part of those guys on top.  It was sometimes my job to find out what regs we were breaking, why and what if anything we need to do about it.

I can't tell you how many time I have gone to my squadron commander, told him why we can't do something, what regulation, paragraph and table we were violating......and was told...."Noted, Proceed!"

Maybe it would have been my FPOC....but it was all about the mission.

Likewise there were plenty of times we just ignored a regulation because it was "convenient" and "safe" to do so.  Maybe that is my bad ethics show through.....but really no one ever went to jail over a non regulation squadron T-shirt or a Unauthorised Morale Patch, or Ranger Rolling their BDU caps.  If someone outside our chain gave us grief...we told our leadership about it and followed their orders.

The regulations are the be all end all of leadership.  Wiser  heads may have written the dumb things.....but you would be supprised as some of the dumb things that those regulation writers do and continue to do.  The CAP is not the only organisation where the reg writers have no touch with reality.

Your last statement seems to contradict what you said before.

You follow what is presented at the top, don't pick and choose like it's a cafeteria line.

When you are an Amn or AB your MTI is pretty much at the top.  He is trying to tell you how to get through your USAF career as a winner.   When the Command Chief tells me to do something then again....he is pretty much at the top of my food chain.  So you are saying at one time that we need to "stand up for what's right" but we have to follow what is present at the top.

That is exactly what I am explaining.  The reg writers made it optional....my chief made semi mandatory. i.e. not really mandatory.....but it will reflect.

Finally I point out your youth...because idealism is usually a disease of the young.  I admire those who have the moral gumption to stand up and say "No I'm not doing it, you can't make me!"  I hate to listen to those same people who then spend hours and hours moaning and groaning about how they got screwed over.

When I was stationed in Germany 97-00 we had an Anthrax Objector in our squadron.  I admired his courage for standing up for himself.  I thought he was stupid for fighting that fight, and choosing his source of information poorly.....I hated him for [censored]ing and moaning when he got his Article 15 and Dishonorable Discharge for failing to obey orders.   

I admire your and see your point that "we should be making people do optional things"......to a point.  I think it is unwise to call out people's ethical and moral standing for making people do optional things unless you really know all the goals and reasoning behind it.  I think it is poor advice to tell people to "stand up for what's right" with out clearly spelling out all the consequences of that fight.

Finally I think it is wrong that you disparage Command by Opinion when that is infact we put leaders in their positions.  If we had a regulation that covered every possible condition and situation we would just need robots.  We need leaders who know the regulations, core values, mission and their people and make the "right" decisions to get us all to the end of the mission.

Sorry for the long post......you touched my rant button.   

[lordmonar]

Pat, your examples are what happens in the Active Duty Air Force. A lot of that crap doesn't happen in the Guard/Reserve.
Biggest reason why, no uniform allowance in the Guard/Reserve.

You got an unserviceable shirt? You go to your squadron who does a form for you to take to Clothing Sales and you get your new shirt.
You then take it to the alterations shop where they sew on the stripes your squadron provided to you for free. Your squadron foots the bill.

When Commanders have to actually pay for the optional items, very few of them are "required" for wear.

Funny how that works!

Of course there is nothing stopping a member from paying for this stuff out of their pocket either, you just don't paid for it, but you can take it off your taxes.
Sorta like CAP.

Well that's always one of the things I like about working with Guard and Reservists.  They focus so much more on just doing the mission and going home as opposed to all the BS the AD folks have to put up with.

I have worked with the ANG and AFR but of course I was never one of them.  So I can't say how life is on that side of the fence.

[PHall]

Pat, your examples are what happens in the Active Duty Air Force. A lot of that crap doesn't happen in the Guard/Reserve.
Biggest reason why, no uniform allowance in the Guard/Reserve.

You got an unserviceable shirt? You go to your squadron who does a form for you to take to Clothing Sales and you get your new shirt.
You then take it to the alterations shop where they sew on the stripes your squadron provided to you for free. Your squadron foots the bill.

When Commanders have to actually pay for the optional items, very few of them are "required" for wear.

Funny how that works!

Of course there is nothing stopping a member from paying for this stuff out of their pocket either, you just don't paid for it, but you can take it off your taxes.
Sorta like CAP.

Well that's always one of the things I like about working with Guard and Reservists.  They focus so much more on just doing the mission and going home as opposed to all the BS the AD folks have to put up with.

I have worked with the ANG and AFR but of course I was never one of them.  So I can't say how life is on that side of the fence.

There's another reason most of the AD crap doesn't happen in the Guard/Reserve (we have our own crap! ).
Unlike the AD where you have to put with people for only a couple of years, you may have these folks around for 10, 15 or even 20 years or more.
You're probably not going to "out last them".

[lordmonar]

And we don't have to wait for someone to die to get promoted!   

[PHall]

And we don't have to wait for someone to die to get promoted!   

Between people peeing "hot" on drug screenings, leaving because of work/family issues, retiring and all the other reasons people leave the Guard/Reserve, that's not much of a problem.
Not everybody wants to be a MSgt when they retire. A lot of people retire as soon as they get their 20 good years as a TSgt or even SSgt.
It's not their primary retirement and you don't start getting checks until you're 60 anyway.

[flyboy53]

Pat, your examples are what happens in the Active Duty Air Force. A lot of that crap doesn't happen in the Guard/Reserve.
Biggest reason why, no uniform allowance in the Guard/Reserve.

You got an unserviceable shirt? You go to your squadron who does a form for you to take to Clothing Sales and you get your new shirt.
You then take it to the alterations shop where they sew on the stripes your squadron provided to you for free. Your squadron foots the bill.

When Commanders have to actually pay for the optional items, very few of them are "required" for wear.

Funny how that works!

Of course there is nothing stopping a member from paying for this stuff out of their pocket either, you just don't paid for it, but you can take it off your taxes.
Sorta like CAP.

Well that's always one of the things I like about working with Guard and Reservists.  They focus so much more on just doing the mission and going home as opposed to all the BS the AD folks have to put up with.

I have worked with the ANG and AFR but of course I was never one of them.  So I can't say how life is on that side of the fence.

True, it works that way with unserviceable uniforms, but my experience with the Air Force Reserve was not that much unlike Active Duty. The commander had more say than you think.

I remember specifically a commander, who up to that point, had a career of flying KC-135s in Vietman and throughout SAC, then spent four years at HQ Air Force at the Pentagon; and the wing-wide scrutiny he placed on everyone, to include measuring the letters on name tags, just before an ORI. Almost everyone in the whole wing had to get new name tags for their uniform....and that inspection: Badges were mandated without ribbons.

The sad or interesting part was someone you only knew as a tech or master was all of a sudden wearing pilot or navigator wings and you knew very quickly who were the rifted officers.

I was in a wing headquarters duty section, so he endorsed my APR. We were required to join the Open Mess, have various leadership roles on base and have active memberships with AFA or AFSA. It's actually on my APR. Believe it or not, things like the Legion and VFW were also discouraged because it meant you didn't support your Open Mess.

And it's not just the Air Force. I had a roommate once at an Army school who I thought was just another slick sleve doing his AIT after basic. He wore nothing on his uniforms but the basic collar brass and name plate. Turned out, after a health and welfare inspection, he was found to an E-4 Specialist with jump wings and a ARCOM for Valor from a tour in Vietnam. He didn't wear what he was supposed to be wearing because he didn't want to assume any NCO duties. I'll never forget the stink that caused.

Whether or not a badge is optional or not, the Air Force went to occupational badges a couple decades ago, as a morale factor to promote unity, pride and combat readines. People without badges were actually jealous of others who wore them. It was the same with the AF winged insignia on the lightweight jackets.

And it can be mandated even when optional. My security police qualification badges were issued. I even have a pair, regular and minature, still on their federal stock number cards. Those badges actually have "G.I" stamped on the back.

Optional or not, a commander at any level can mandate the wearing of a badge because it's considered a matter of service pride and morale. In those instances, the people who choose not to, are then in the minority and may be subject to other scrutiny.

[ol'fido]

I keep having visions of that deleted scene from "We Were Soldiers" in which the old sergeant is told to "wear his ribbons" by the overbearing 2nd Lt and shows up the next day wearing his cover,boots,two MOHs, and nothing else.

[MSG Mac]

Except that the last people who were awarded two CMH's were during WWI. (One each from the USMC and the US Army). Last to be awarded for two seperate actions were during the Haiti campaign in 1915.

[DakRadz]

Okay, then a true story.

(From a Marine we volunteered with for Toys for Tots)

John Marine is told to report in his finest at his rack for the Commanding General's inspection. All of his platoon is in the barracks, and word is Joe Marine is at the bar.

CG gets to John's rack (bunk? I tried to use proper terms) and sees a MOH on the pillow, turns to (his aide? CO? PL? someone more directly connected to JM) and says, "next time you see that man, ask him if he'd like to have a drink with me" and goes on with the inspection.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Quite a few people in the Guard have two ribbon racks made up - one with state ribbons and one without, since they can't wear state ribbons on FAD.

[GroundHawg]

Quite a few people in the Guard have two ribbon racks made up - one with state ribbons and one without, since they can't wear state ribbons on FAD.

I would be included in that crowd. While in the Army Guard, I had a second class A jacket as I couldnt just remove the Governors 20 Tab.  I also had a couple of "sterile" BDU shirts that didnt have the tab or the Rams Head Badge sewn on, so if I went on orders I didnt have to deal with any drama.