Foreign Military Decorations on the CAP uniform

[PHall]

I only want to wear them on my dress uniform for our dining out on 11-11-11, Veteran's Day.

AC

Then wear your military uniform. You're entitled to do it and there's no problem with wearing your wings.

[ol'fido]

Thank you sir. I am proud of them.

I did earn them in a combat environment.

AC

If I see you out wearing those PARU wings on Veteran's Day, I'll only have one thing to say to you,

"Great pair of wings! Wear 'em proud, Captain. You earned 'em"

[AC]

Then wear your military uniform. You're entitled to do it and there's no problem with wearing your wings.
[/quote]

I took the ribbons off of it and put them on my CAP uniform. It's the wrong style. It is a CAP function.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I have seen AF personnel wearing jump wings...and AFSOC types get to wear "Ranger" tabs (if earned!) on the BDU/ABU/whatever other striped pyjamas come down the pike.  In fact, memory's hazy here, but I think I remember an AF Lt Col wearing them when a contestant on Jeopardy! (Alex, I'll have Incomprehensible Air Force Regulations for $1000).  He was wearing the four-pocket Tony Nelson uniform, so that puts it back a bit.

I have also seen military personnel across the board wearing jump wings they've earned with allied nations:

Canadian:

(with both red and white Maple Leaf; not sure what the distinction is)

German (including a guy in my squadron):


Australian (UK/NZ similar except for SAS; I've never seen a US troop wearing SAS wings):


Are all these people out of regs?

[AC]

We have a very strong Airborne! code, we are a proud bunch, and we stick together.

A guy on my team collects jump wings. He is in the process of moving right now, but when he can, I'll get him to send me pics, and I'll start a fresh thread as aerospace ed.

AC

[arajca]

Here's a few questions for all those who insist on wearing awards decoration from every military service for any country on their CAP uniform instead of wearing CAP awards and decorations on their CAP uniform:

Why?

Are you ashamed of your CAP achievements?

Do you think they are insignificant in regards to CAP?

[AC]

I'm wearing my CAP awards and decorations, I earned them too.

Notice that I am wearing my pilot wings above my military wings. In the Air Force, pilot wings go on top. Good thing I didn't earn Air Force pilot wings, I was already a pilot before I joined the Air Force! Thanks to CAP.

In CAP, military wings go above CAP wings. Now what!

[arajca]

In CAP, military wings go above CAP wings. Now what!

Bzzt! Wrong answer.

If a member wears the US Military Aviation Badge (Awarded in writing by competent authority.)

Then it will be worn centered 1/2 inch above the pocket or ribbons on left breast. CAP aviation badges are worn 1/2 inch above other aviation badges.

emphasis mine.

[Hawk200]

Here's a few questions for all those who insist on wearing awards decoration from every military service for any country on their CAP uniform instead of wearing CAP awards and decorations on their CAP uniform:

Why?

Are you ashamed of your CAP achievements?

Do you think they are insignificant in regards to CAP?

Show me one person here who wears everything but CAP decorations on their uniform. Either you're excessively exaggerating, or you have a serious misimpression of people that have other than CAP service.

ALL of them are significant. Ribbons are a freaking resume, not any form of rank, and they do not confer any kind of superiority over any one. I am just as proud of what I've accomplished in CAP as what I have in the military. I wear both of them proudly.

I've answered your questions, so here's a couple of mine: Are you ashamed of your CAP achievements compared to those that have military ones? Do you feel they are insignificant? Or is it a case of being ashamed of our military, and think that it diminishes CAP as a whole somehow? I'm not saying you think these things, it's a legitimate question, I'm honestly asking.

I have seen a few CAP personnel that seem to think that military personnel shouldn't be allowed to display their decorations. I have legitimately heard CAP members say "It's not fair that they can wear their military 'stuff'. I earned mine, they just came in wearing theirs." Seems like they're missing something. I wouldn't want to work with anyone guilty of such an outlook. I've even seen it when a cadet transfers in with more ribbons/badges/patches/bling than most of the ones present at the unit, so it's not just "those military ribbons."

It comes across (to me anyway) that if someone didn't see it, then it didn't really happen. Well, someone did see it happen, that's why the person is now wearing it (provided of course that they are wearing it legitimately). It had to be approved, and for that you need proof.

I wear an Army uniform, and it has Air Force decorations on it. The Army doesn't seem to think that I'm ashamed of what they've given me, even though I have things from another branch. If the  Army doesn't have a problem with that, why should CAP or CAP members? A person could could get the impression that someone has some insecurities.

Too much "us and them," and not enough "we." Be proud of your own achievements, you worked for them. If you always want someone else's cookie, you're never gonna be happy.

If a member wears the US Military Aviation Badge (Awarded in writing by competent authority.)

Then it will be worn centered 1/2 inch above the pocket or ribbons on left breast. CAP aviation badges are worn 1/2 inch above other aviation badges.

That's something  that needs to be clarified across the board. All military badges, not just aviation ones, should be worn below CAP badges if both are worn on the uniform. The precedence is the military, the current service badges go highest (generally, there are probably a few exceptions). It should be the same in CAP.

[AC]

In CAP, military wings go above CAP wings. Now what!

Bzzt! Wrong answer.

If a member wears the US Military Aviation Badge (Awarded in writing by competent authority.)

Then it will be worn centered 1/2 inch above the pocket or ribbons on left breast. CAP aviation badges are worn 1/2 inch above other aviation badges.

emphasis mine.

See, even I can be wrong! Looks like I am in compliance, like I thought I was. Unless you want to dock me for the 1/2". If I move the wings up, the are hidden by the lapel.

[arajca]

In CAP, military wings go above CAP wings. Now what!

Bzzt! Wrong answer.

If a member wears the US Military Aviation Badge (Awarded in writing by competent authority.)

Then it will be worn centered 1/2 inch above the pocket or ribbons on left breast. CAP aviation badges are worn 1/2 inch above other aviation badges.

emphasis mine.

See, even I can be wrong! Looks like I am in compliance, like I thought I was. Unless you want to dock me for the 1/2". If I move the wings up, the are hidden by the lapel.

Spacing is required to be 1/2". Your ribbons/badges need to fit below the notch. If they don't, you can't wear all of them. So you're not in compliance.

[Hardshell Clam]

Here's a few questions for all those who insist on wearing awards decoration from every military service for any country on their CAP uniform instead of wearing CAP awards and decorations on their CAP uniform: Why? Are you ashamed of your CAP achievements? Do you think they are insignificant in regards to CAP?

CAP awards and military awards are apples and oranges.  Not that CAP awards are "not as good" but realistically, they are considerably easier to obtain then military awards.  It took me 11 weeks to earn a military ribbon vs a day to earn one in the CAP.

[ol'fido]

Capt. Maroste,

Wear what you earned and be proud of it. You have done more than most everyone on this board has done and done it for real. You are going to find this kind of garrison trooper mentality sometimes in CAP.These people will try to make CAP more "orthodox" with regard to uniform regs than anything you will find in the RM. Strangely, I have found very few ex-military that are this way. If this thread continues, someone will likely pull the Core Value: Integrity card on you as if they themselves are without original sin. Very few of them know waht real integrity and character really is. Ignore this. These people are a very small(thanfully) minority in CAP. I see nothing wrong with your rack or wearing your PARU wings on the right side. Like I said before, you earned them and wear them proudly.

[jimmydeanno]

I think that the argument over the military decorations from non-priors comes like this:

1) Why wear military decorations on your CAP uniform, when they have no real bearing as to what you've done in CAP.  Even other military branches have restrictions on what you can bring over from another service.  CAP isn't just a continuation of an existing military career.

2) Military veterans don't wear their awards and decorations on their Boy Scout Uniforms, or when they volunteer with other organizations, why CAP?  I think that it's the same argument of Air Force personnel wearing their Air Force uniforms to CAP meetings as a member.  "It's close enough." 

3) Some Military veterans get all worked up about not being able to wear certain things (this discussion, for example) and bring that "I earned it, I'm wearing it" attitude with them.  Which is kind of ironic, coming from a person who spent a career enforcing rules and regulations, but now don't think they should apply.

4) Non-priors don't get to wear their "employee of the month" award from their job.  Even government civilians awarded ribbons from the government, like the "President's Award for Distinguished Public Service," can't wear it, even though it's a ribbon.  Why should a military veteran get to wear a marksmanship ribbon, but the NSA employee can't wear their NSA Exceptional Civilian Service Medal?  I mean, it probably took a lot more work to earn than shooting at the range a few times.

Heck, I've met some vets that flat out told me that they'd quit CAP if they weren't given the option to wear their awards and decorations.

Many people see the military veterans demanding to wear their awards and decs as a way to play the one upmanship game with people without prior military experience, as a "I know more about leading than you do because I was in the military."  Or "I'm not going to wear those CAP wings, because I have military wings, and we all know that civilian pilots aren't as cool as military pilots."

*this is not a summary of my personal opinion, but rather an expulsion of views that I've recollected throughout the years from many CAP members without prior-military experience.

[AC]

Thank you sir.

Terry Maroste

ETA: I met a Marine fighter pilot at the Texas Wing conference who had those beautiful Wings of Gold. He is CAP.

[Hawk200]

I think that the argument over the military decorations from non-priors comes like this:

1) Why wear military decorations on your CAP uniform, when they have no real bearing as to what you've done in CAP.  Even other military branches have restrictions on what you can bring over from another service.  CAP isn't just a continuation of an existing military career.

2) Military veterans don't wear their awards and decorations on their Boy Scout Uniforms, or when they volunteer with other organizations, why CAP?  I think that it's the same argument of Air Force personnel wearing their Air Force uniforms to CAP meetings as a member.  "It's close enough." 

3) Some Military veterans get all worked up about not being able to wear certain things (this discussion, for example) and bring that "I earned it, I'm wearing it" attitude with them.  Which is kind of ironic, coming from a person who spent a career enforcing rules and regulations, but now don't think they should apply.

4) Non-priors don't get to wear their "employee of the month" award from their job.  Even government civilians awarded ribbons from the government, like the "President's Award for Distinguished Public Service," can't wear it, even though it's a ribbon.  Why should a military veteran get to wear a marksmanship ribbon, but the NSA employee can't wear their NSA Exceptional Civilian Service Medal?  I mean, it probably took a lot more work to earn than shooting at the range a few times.

Heck, I've met some vets that flat out told me that they'd quit CAP if they weren't given the option to wear their awards and decorations.

Many people see the military veterans demanding to wear their awards and decs as a way to play the one upmanship game with people without prior military experience, as a "I know more about leading than you do because I was in the military."  Or "I'm not going to wear those CAP wings, because I have military wings, and we all know that civilian pilots aren't as cool as military pilots."

*this is not a summary of my personal opinion, but rather an expulsion of views that I've recollected throughout the years from many CAP members without prior-military experience.

1. CAP wears a military uniform with it's own insignia. It's maintaining the same customs of the branch we're "lent" it from. Military awards and decs are appropriate. A person does not lose their history or experience because they join CAP, no matter how much some CAP members want it.

2. Like awards and decorations are not worn on Boy Scouts or similar organizations uniforms, so the comparison is irrelevant, regardless of how much it is argued.

3.  Enforcing rules and regulations and now think they don't apply? Specify which ones. No one here has said they don't apply. I have said that I disagree with rules, but would comply because they're rules. If you don't like the rule, get it changed. And what is it going to hurt a CAP member if someone wears a badge, ribbon, or wings that they can't earn? It's not going to. There are many people that scream "it's not fair!" because they don't have what someone else does. That's one of society's failures that teaches people that they are equal to everyone else in every way, when they're not. If everyone was equal in everything, there would be no need for a team.

Second, there are awards and badges that are authorized, but CAP only members don't even want those permitted, or actually tell people they aren't (when they are). Do some of these people have such an inferiority complex that they can't handle someone else having something more?

4. Pineda authorized a number of DOD employees the wear of a civilian commendation medal years ago. Personally, I don't have a problem with it. But I do have problems with some things being permitted, and not others. That's double standard and hypocrisy, any way you look at it. Additionally, I don't think those particular decorations were ever actually authorized in writing. It was "Pineda said so." That's wrong too.

I still have military experience. That hasn't changed. Why would you deny me the priviledge of wearing something that you don't have? Because, that's what it looks like. I have had people tell me that "military stuff doesn't belong here", and then they go perform drill incorrectly, show discourtesy to those with more rank and experience than they have, generally do many things completely wrong and won't accept education to the contrary. A team where every one plays by their own individual rules isn't a team. It's a failure.

Don't think that my responses are directed specifically at you. I'm primarily addressing the statements.

[Hawk200]

Canadian:

(with both red and white Maple Leaf; not sure what the distinction is)

White is operational jump status. Red is qualified (been to school), but not in a current jump billet.

[PHall]

Capt. Maroste,

Wear what you earned and be proud of it. You have done more than most everyone on this board has done and done it for real. You are going to find this kind of garrison trooper mentality sometimes in CAP.These people will try to make CAP more "orthodox" with regard to uniform regs than anything you will find in the RM. Strangely, I have found very few ex-military that are this way. If this thread continues, someone will likely pull the Core Value: Integrity card on you as if they themselves are without original sin. Very few of them know waht real integrity and character really is. Ignore this. These people are a very small(thanfully) minority in CAP. I see nothing wrong with your rack or wearing your PARU wings on the right side. Like I said before, you earned them and wear them proudly.

And some of us RETIRED MILITARY believe in following the regs.
It's nice that you earned it, but if the uniform regs say you can't wear it in that uniform then you don't wear it while in that uniform.

[Short Field]

 ^^^ :clap:  :clap:  :clap:

[Hawk200]

It's nice that you earned it, but if the uniform regs say you can't wear it in that uniform then you don't wear it while in that uniform.

The only stipulation I would have would be that it be worn on the left side, over ribbons and below any military or CAP badge (successively).

Foreign Aviation badges are listed in 39-1. It just says that a CAP badge goes above it.