Wearing CAP Blues in Airport

[JK657]

Wouldn't they stand a better chance of passing an inspection if they haven't flown across the United States in uniform? Less chance to lose a flight cap, scuff your shoes, etc?

[RogueLeader]

If it were up to me, and I decided to hold it there, I would have them change beforehand, and travel in civies.

I also recognise the value in attention to detail found in traveling via airline in uniform.

[Extremepredjudice]

This year we traveled in uniform and had our inspection at the facility. 

[C/2d Lt]

I dont mind traveling in uniform I just think it is a little pointless because being in ES flight and we are wearing BDU for graduation anyway so if I wasn't flying I would not bring them. With flying with all of the BDU uniform is a lot more stuff to carry. I do understand the idea behind it though it still just sucks.

[RickRutledge]

I dont mind traveling in uniform I just think it is a little pointless because being in ES flight and we are wearing BDU for graduation anyway so if I wasn't flying I would not bring them. With flying with all of the BDU uniform is a lot more stuff to carry. I do understand the idea behind it though it still just sucks.

You are NOT supposed to travel in your BDUs by commercial means. Blues are the only prescribed uniform to travel to and from CAP activities, provided the activity hasn't given you instructions to the contrary.

[C/2d Lt]

I do not intend to travel in BDU's. As I said, flying with the BDU Uniform is a lot more to carry(NOT wear). Meaning that I would have to physically carry it, boots cover and everything. It would be a whole extra bag to carry/ more money to put under the airplane. Anyway how would I carry and wear my uniform at the same time.

[MSG Mac]

I do not intend to travel in BDU's. As I said, flying with the BDU Uniform is a lot more to carry(NOT wear). Meaning that I would have to physically carry it, boots cover and everything. It would be a whole extra bag to carry/ more money to put under the airplane. Anyway how would I carry and wear my uniform at the same time.

they don't have irons at your destination?

[a2capt]

The whole thing of "sending people home" from an activity because of a "failed" uniform inspection within 30 seconds of arriving at the place, to me is just pure bull.

This isn't the active duty military, many of these activities people pay hard earned money to get to, and by the very nature of the activity, it's training. So why not put together a checklist, have them mark of every last detail on it, and send that back ahead of time saying "I have *everything* on this list. Period."

Then when they arrive, go over how it should be, for those who need it. After all, it's training, isn't it? Give 'em a time slot to get uniforms prepared, and the experienced staff can assist. Then have the inspection, and use it as a learning tool.

Let the vetting process on the applications be where the thinning of the herd happens.

[vento]

^^^ +1

[ol'fido]

The whole thing of "sending people home" from an activity because of a "failed" uniform inspection within 30 seconds of arriving at the place, to me is just pure bull.

This isn't the active duty military, many of these activities people pay hard earned money to get to, and by the very nature of the activity, it's training. So why not put together a checklist, have them mark of every last detail on it, and send that back ahead of time saying "I have *everything* on this list. Period."

Then when they arrive, go over how it should be, for those who need it. After all, it's training, isn't it? Give 'em a time slot to get uniforms prepared, and the experienced staff can assist. Then have the inspection, and use it as a learning tool.

Let the vetting process on the applications be where the thinning of the herd happens.

THIS is what I meant when I asked ARE YOU KIDDING ME? in my previous post. :clap: :clap:

[Blues Brother]

The whole thing of "sending people home" from an activity because of a "failed" uniform inspection within 30 seconds of arriving at the place, to me is just pure bull.

This isn't the active duty military, many of these activities people pay hard earned money to get to, and by the very nature of the activity, it's training. So why not put together a checklist, have them mark of every last detail on it, and send that back ahead of time saying "I have *everything* on this list. Period."

Then when they arrive, go over how it should be, for those who need it. After all, it's training, isn't it? Give 'em a time slot to get uniforms prepared, and the experienced staff can assist. Then have the inspection, and use it as a learning tool.

Let the vetting process on the applications be where the thinning of the herd happens.

I agree.   I personally canont see the benefit in people getting so wound up on these uniform issues in an organization that is all volunteers. members spend alot of their own money traveling to meetins, etc... and donate their time to the common good, and then there are people that get all wound up over these little details instead of focusing on the big picture of what they are there for.    In this day and age getting people to volunteer in an organization is not an easy thing, and doing things like nit picking on uniforms is just going to drive people away. look around your community at the volunteer organizations such as fire departments, Lion's clubs, KC's, Masons, community foundations, etc...  they are usually comprised of old members and rarely have anyone under age 40 in them. Finding good members is not easy, and you dont want to chase them away with uniform police.   as said before,  this is not the active duty military, its a volunteer organization with its mission to help people and serve the common good.  Let people do their jobs and relax a bit on these uniform issues.   I know a guy that serves in another squadron than mine, heck of a nice guy and good member.  he always shows up at meetings, but he isnt the neatest guy in the world. his uniform looks old and isnt the best kept, but this guy is always there and he is an asset to the CAP.   Would I want him on my team?  absolutely.  he is good people and knows his stuff.  sure his hair is sometimes a bit messy and maybe his collar is goofed up or he has a food stain on his shirt, but he is there every meeting, every activity, and is a good volunteer.   If he had a superior that got on his case for his appearance it could chase him away and they would loose a good member.   just my opinion.

[RickRutledge]

I agree.   I personally canont see the benefit in people getting so wound up on these uniform issues in an organization that is all volunteers.

Maybe there are two good reasons:

1) When you wear the uniform you are a representative of CAP, USAF (if in AF style) and the military in general. That's the reason 39-1 specifically states that all uniforms will be professional in appearance and well kept; Compliance with the regulation is mandatory.

2) Uniform violations are a reason for denying insurance coverage in the event of an accident. What you may see as "just messy but not a big deal" the organization sees as a blatant violation of rules that have been put in place to protect you and the organization in the event of an incident.

As a volunteer, it's your job to know what you're getting yourself into. Yes, it's tough to recruit and retain quality members, but there is a responsibility in doing your job the way prescribed in CAP. Like it or not, it is the way it is for a reason. Besides, a sloppy senior member is a bad example and can question the credibility of ALL senior members with cadets that we are charged with. That can get into a whole other debate.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I agree.   I personally canont see the benefit in people getting so wound up on these uniform issues in an organization that is all volunteers.

There's a polo for that.

[Ned]

CAP Urban Legend Alert!

Uniform violations are NOT a reason to deny insurance coverage.  Or any other benefit.

And never have been.

Really, really.

The whole notion that our leaders (or our insurance carrier) would leave widow(er)s and orphans to starve to death in the snow because a pilot crashed with ribbons out of order or wearing USAF-style uniforms while 5 lbs overweight is just as silly as it sounds.

It is just a scary story that frightens people unnecessarily.

Our volunteers have a hard enough job to do without these urban legends floating around.

Please consider not repeating it and helping to educate anyone who does.


Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer
(Member at Large, BoG)

[Майор Хаткевич]

Ned,

I do not believe most of us think minor uniform issues would be a cause for denial.

[Eclipse]

Uniform violations are NOT a reason to deny insurance coverage.  Or any other benefit.

Then what weight does the term "required" actually have?

This also doesn't jive with the reality of non-CAP civil liability cases, where insurance companies will stretch any loophole they can find
to avoid paying benefits.  In fact, there's whole departments where people's job is to find ways to deny claims, not to mention that
it can be argued that its the fiduciary responsibility of the board of directors of a company to limit financial liability.

The whole notion that our leaders (or our insurance carrier) would leave widow(er)s and orphans to starve to death in the snow because a pilot crashed with ribbons out of order or wearing USAF-style uniforms while 5 lbs overweight is just as silly as it sounds.

This, of course, is using the extreme to discount the mean.

What about no uniform?  No ID?  Lapsed membership?  Lapsed qualification?  "Forgot to re-up the Form 5."?
Don't have a driver's license? 

How about being a disqualified member because your safety current lapsed?

There's a line where benefits will be denied.  No one wants to be the test case.

And this isn't about "people" personally denying orphans, this is about bean counters and liability specialists denying
one more line item. 

[SARDOC]

I know that it is Contrary to Regulations.  However, I think that wearing the Uniform to a multitude of occasions is fine.  If someone wants to wear it to Church, or while travelling on CAP business, or to a Funeral, or to school (provided it's okay with the School) for a special function.  I'm okay with it as long as it's done in a positive professional manner and the person remembers they are representing the USAF and the Civil Air Patrol.

[jimmydeanno]

Keep things in perspective.

Cadet going to HGA is going there to learn how to be professional and disciplined.  The majority of cadets going aren't Phase IV cadets.  Sending the kid home because his nametag is a little crooked is ridiculous, by any stretch of the imagination.  One of the hurdles that NCSAs have is the correction of a wide variety of local traditions and customs that come from local commanders that don't run things right or don't hold the same standards.  Punishing the cadet for minor violations, by sending them home at the airport, doesn't meet the goal of the program or the activity.

[Eclipse]

Keep things in perspective.

Cadet going to HGA is going there to learn how to be professional and disciplined.  The majority of cadets going aren't Phase IV cadets.  Sending the kid home because his nametag is a little crooked is ridiculous, by any stretch of the imagination.  One of the hurdles that NCSAs have is the correction of a wide variety of local traditions and customs that come from local commanders that don't run things right or don't hold the same standards.  Punishing the cadet for minor violations, by sending them home at the airport, doesn't meet the goal of the program or the activity.

Agree 100%.

The other side is when these large activities, run by experienced staff, make corrections and then the
home unit argues the activity is wrong. Running a 2-weekend encampment, we'd send cadets home
corrected, they'd go to a meeting mid-week, and come back "broken" again saying that "their commander
said this was right..."

[Ned]

Bob,

Well, I'm not sure why this troubles you so.

Capt Rutlidge repeated an "old wives tale" about uniform violations being used to deny CAP insurance benefits.  I wanted to ensure that members understand that it simply isn't so.

Our members are our most important asset.  We do not "increase our profits" by denying benefits.  Thankfully, very, very few members will ever need our insurance or FECA benefits, but they are there when needed.  Indeed, it is the job of leaders like yourself to make sure our members know about them, and to assist them in times of need.

To answer your question directly, "required" means exactly what it says.  When performing CAP duties, you and I must wear a uniform, and wear it correctly.  If we don't arguably we are subject to discipline.  We could be counseled or maybe even reprimanded or demoted in extreme cases.

But granting or denying insurance benefits to a member or their family is not remotely a form of discipline.  Benefits like these are just what we do to take care of our own in times of need.

Which is what good leaders try to make sure happens in a compassionate and timely manner.