Wearing CAP Blues in Airport

[titanII]

I'm willing to bet that they don't get hassled for looking so much like the Navy as we do the AF...

Probably because they don't have an internet forum 

[jks19714]

I'm willing to bet that they don't get hassled for looking so much like the Navy as we do the AF...

Probably because they don't have an internet forum 

The question is whether they troll Navy bases for salutes! 

[MIKE]

(RADM Jonathan W. Bailey, NOAA)

The admiral needs a new cover then.

[NIN]

Holy topic drift, Batman.

On the subject of salutes between CAP & members of the armed forces:

1) Salutes are greetings and gestures of respect.  They're not an oath of fealty or a sign of superiority/inferiority.

2) Telling someone "Oh, you don't have to salute me, I'm just in CAP" basically says "Even though we're wearing grade insignia and we're doing the best darn job we can to represent the USAF (you are, aren't you?), you can just go ahead and treat us differently. Like, WAY differently."   

Eclipse and I very often don't agree to much, but on this particular point we're not far off.  Salutes among members of the armed forces (and their reserve/auxiliary components) are as commonplace and as easily given as the "Hi, Bill!" you say to your building security guard every morning.  Really.   (I realize that when you're new at it, every salute is an event to you. After over 30 years in a uniform, I can't count the number of salutes I've both given and received.  Its a formality, its a gesture, its over in 1/2 a second, move on.  The same goes for the guy on the other end of the salute)

(Scenario: Think about if at some point in the late 1940s, some knucklehead 2nd Lts  in the AF Reserve got it in their head that since they were "just in the Air Force Reserve," and it was so very, very, very much junior to its parent service and not the *real* Air Force, that folks in the Active Duty force didn't have to salute them, and went about saying such at every opportunity.  What do you think the impression of the Active Duty enlisted force would be of the USAFR after a few years?  Do you think it would "Wow, I got a lotta respect for those AF Reserve guys. They know what they're about so well that they don't need or want salutes. How high-speed!" or "Well, since they don't want salutes, then I'll keep treating them like the 2nd class citizens that they are.." ?)

My first interaction with large numbers of USAF personnel (by large I mean "enlisted troops in large packs") in a non-structured environment was probably Region Staff College. We ate in  DFAC next to the NCOA on McGuire and apart from us, there were no officers to be seen.  Walking to/from chow was, by sheer dint of the area and proximity to the enlisted dorms a gigantic salute gauntlet just to get some food.

Did I stop each enlisted troop and say "Hey, there, Airman, don't bother saluting me, I'm not really a major?"

No, cuz I was hungry and wanted some of that good s'member food.  And the more talking I did whilst trying to get to the DFAC virtually ensured that Cookie was gonna cut me off or I'd have to leave early to get to formation.

A guy saluted, said "Good afternoon sir!" and I returned it saying "Afternoon, thanks!"  Over and over and over.

After awhile, its as ubiquitous as getting a knucklebump from Ashton Kutcher.

Funny side story: 1987, I'm home on leave from Korea, visiting my buddy at USAFA.  We go up on the Terrazzo, but he has to be in service dress, and we'll, I'm darn sure not gonna waltz around the Terrazzo in a pair of cutoffs and a t-shirt while he's in his Sunday finery.  So I'm in Class As, and I'm getting the nickel tour from my buddy when we happen upon a flight of freshmen getting marched around by some 2- and 3-degrees.  As we get closer, I see one "guy what be in charge" nudge another "guy what be in charge" and indicate our approach, at which point one guy barks "Attention!" and they all turn and face us and salute. 

Not having 2/10ths of a clue as to how the USAFA rank structure works, under my breath I go "Are they saluting you?"

My buddy says "No, I think they're saluting you!"

So I return the salute and say "Carry on, gentlemen."

They all relax and I wave them over to me, out of earshot of their trainees.

"Uh, guys," I point to my sleeve, "I'm an enlisted guy!"

"OOooohh," they all go, and I can see them cataloging my funny grade insignia and the DUIs up on my epaulet.  "We didn't know.. we saw shiny and immediately thought 'Salute!'.."

"No problem on my account, guys, I just want to keep you out of trouble when you're on the outside.."

"Oh, thanks!" and they all dig out their copies of Contrails and start flipping to the pages of Army rank.

"So, you're a Specialist Fourth Class?  Whats a Specialist Five?"

"Oh, the Army doesn't have them really anymore. I think the last Spec5 retired recently. Same with Spec 6 and 7.."

*scribble* *scribble* as they cross them off in their books..

"Wow, thanks, man.."

"No problem, gents. Happy to help!"



So yeah, sometimes its entirely appropriate to fill in the other party, but generally not.

[ProdigalJim]

Even though we are not obligated to salute officers of the USPHS/NOAA Corps, I still would anyway, because of the "salute-the-rank-not-the-person-wearing-it" criteria.

(Former Surgeon General VADM Richard Carmona, USPHS)

I'm with you, I would too.

Just as an aside, as to Carmona's "real"-ness...FWIW when he was enlisted he was a Special Forces medic, years before he went to med school; decorations included a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart with an oak leaf cluster. In civilian life, he worked as a paramedic, then was a registered nurse. He wound up as the top graduate when he eventually went to medical school, and was also a deputy Pima County (Ariz.) sheriff.

I'd salute that... 

And seriously, I don't think it does any harm to salute *apparent* officers when we encounter them.

[lordmonar]

Say it again....say it loud.....everybody now!

SALUTES ARE ALWAYS APPROPRIATE!

[ProdigalJim]

Say it again....say it loud.....everybody now!

SALUTES ARE ALWAYS APPROPRIATE!

"Sir, SALUTES ARE ALWAYS APPROPRIATE, SIR!"

Was that loud enough? 

[lordmonar]

Good job Lt.....carry on now. 

[JC004]

wait wait wait.  this NOAA Corps device looks like a squished CAP button:



http://www.noaacorps.noaa.gov/about/insignia.html

[bosshawk]

NIN: I couldn't agree with you more.  Just an aside, I was an Admissions Liaison Officer for West Point for 12 years and went to the academy a bunch of times.  Talk about a salute gauntlet: try walking from building to building at WP and have the cadets changing classes.  Enough to make a Colonel run for cover.  Went back there in Apr 10: am retired now and in civies.  Made life a whole bunch simpler.

Pat: I like that response.  Lets hope that it puts this whole topic to bed.

[spacecommand]

From wearing CAP blues in the airport to stolen valor to force protection to saluting and beyond!

[Ed Bos]

IYou are correct about USPHS having to have degree-in-hand, but I still think they take some training at Kings Point.

I'm willing to bet that they don't get hassled for looking so much like the Navy as we do the AF...

IIRC, the USPHS commissions folks with a "direct commission" if they have an appropriate degree, and sometime early career these officers attend an Officer Basic Course. A friend of mine attended one of these, and it was only a few days long at the time, since then the PHS has changed the program slightly, but they do not have any sort of mandatory training at King's Point.

And they don't get "hassled" because they're not Navy Uniforms. They're PHS and NOAA uniforms... both of those are sea-going services, like the Navy is, so they wear similar uniforms with distinguishing insignia, but that doesn't change the fact that they are their own services.

[Eclipse]

Say it again....say it loud.....everybody now!

SALUTES ARE ALWAYS APPROPRIATE!

Bravo.

Anyone with a differing opinion likely has an unrelated agenda behind it.

[afgeo4]

IYou are correct about USPHS having to have degree-in-hand, but I still think they take some training at Kings Point.

I'm willing to bet that they don't get hassled for looking so much like the Navy as we do the AF...

IIRC, the USPHS commissions folks with a "direct commission" if they have an appropriate degree, and sometime early career these officers attend an Officer Basic Course. A friend of mine attended one of these, and it was only a few days long at the time, since then the PHS has changed the program slightly, but they do not have any sort of mandatory training at King's Point.

And they don't get "hassled" because they're not Navy Uniforms. They're PHS and NOAA uniforms... both of those are sea-going services, like the Navy is, so they wear similar uniforms with distinguishing insignia, but that doesn't change the fact that they are their own services.

Although technically the PHS has roots in the Marine (Merchant) Hospital Service, it is not a "sea-going service."  In its civilian duties it is a medical research and policy organization. In its military duties it has members attached to ALL branches of the U.S. military. Those members are considered to be combatants while on orders.

[Ed Bos]

Although technically the PHS has roots in the Marine (Merchant) Hospital Service, it is not a "sea-going service."  In its civilian duties it is a medical research and policy organization. In its military duties it has members attached to ALL branches of the U.S. military. Those members are considered to be combatants while on orders.

Absolutely, thank you for the clarification. I was referring to the historical roots of PHS and NOAA, and the reason for their uniforms and current rank structure, but I acknowledge that my description wasn't accurate regarding their current duties of these two branches of service.

[JBC]

For those against flying in BDUs, I can find nothing in the regs against it. I just did it for hawk. The one point I do is stress is the appearance of the uniform especially in such a high traffic place as a commercial airport. I had a freshly dry cleaned set I kept clean through hawk just for graduation and flying back, and anyone who has been knows how much of a feat that is. Another cadet, unfortunately, had no such planning in place. I was walking through the airport and saw another cadet with one pant leg rolled up above his boot inside out, the other bootlaces halfway up and untied, out of reg hair, no rank, and an overall disaster of a uniform.

[Eclipse]

For those against flying in BDUs, I can find nothing in the regs against it. I just did it for hawk.

See CAPR 39-1 Table 1.1:

Table 1-1. Wearing the Uniform
Wear when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions (See Note 1).

Members may wear service dress uniform or light blue, short or long sleeve shirt/blouse with tie/tab and the all-weather coat, overcoat, and raincoat when traveling by commercial means (other than to and from local CAP activities). (See Note 2)

Although any CAP uniform may be worn, aviator shirt, blazer combination, or appropriate civilian attire is encouraged to be worn on military aircraft (except orientation flights or IACE). EXCEPTIONS: BDUs and flight suits will not be worn. This will enable members to arrive for activity participation with the proper uniform ready to wear.

Was this mandated / authorized by HMRS, or just your idea?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Until NHQ publishes a special 39-1 or a very long ICL relating just to HMRS, they are subject to the same rules of 39-1 as anyone else in CAP...and that includes Eclipse's quote from 39-1.

If I were in an airport and saw a cadet wearing BDU's I would ask them why and under what written authorisation they were doing so.

[Tim Medeiros]

For those against flying in BDUs, I can find nothing in the regs against it. I just did it for hawk.

See CAPR 39-1 Table 1.1:

Table 1-1. Wearing the Uniform
Wear when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions (See Note 1).

Members may wear service dress uniform or light blue, short or long sleeve shirt/blouse with tie/tab and the all-weather coat, overcoat, and raincoat when traveling by commercial means (other than to and from local CAP activities). (See Note 2)

Although any CAP uniform may be worn, aviator shirt, blazer combination, or appropriate civilian attire is encouraged to be worn on military aircraft (except orientation flights or IACE). EXCEPTIONS: BDUs and flight suits will not be worn. This will enable members to arrive for activity participation with the proper uniform ready to wear.

Was this mandated / authorized by HMRS, or just your idea?

Emphasis on the underlined.

[Eclipse]

I don't agree, obviously, with your interpretation, but there is certainly room for clarification.  If you go by the way you are reading it, the only thing authorized on a commercial carrier is Blues, since the next line, then, would only apply to military aircraft.

I can't see a single reason to justify wearing BDU's or a flight suit on a commercial carrier, can you?