Wearing CAP Blues in Airport

[RADIOMAN015]

I highly doubt that the vast majority of senior "adult" members, wear their CAP blue uniforms (or any CAP uniform for that matter) while flying on commercial aircraft.

Statistics?
In many years of flying scheduled airline flights, I've never seen a CAP member in uniform.  Hey maybe things have changed, I'll asked ALL our folks at my workplace to be on the lookout for.  Perhaps there's a non CAP forum I can also ask them to look for CAP members flying in uniform.  I would think the Louisville KY National Board/Conference would be the best place to station someone at the airport to see how many members fly in on a scheduled airliner in CAP uniform.  Perhaps more will fly out in uniform because of the inability to change and make the scheduled flight    

Frankly it's very dubious those adults that are wearing their CAP uniforms (especially the AF type uniforms), really have an interest in representing Civil Air Patrol, but instead our trolling for special favors due to confusion by airline personnel.

First, you assume too much, and you know what the breakdown of the word assume is.  You cannot, and do not know, what is in the mind and heart of every CAP member, and that includes the ones who wear the AF type uniform.  In a large airport, a CAP uniform would be one uniform among many.  I haven't yet been in a major airport, especially since 9/11, that wasn't filled with various uniformed service personnel going to and from destinations.

That would be a rare instance of a member flying in uniform, not a common instance.  Again it gets down to better regulatory guidance on this matter.  It also involves self policing and other agencies such as the USO, taking the initiative to reporting members that attempt to get services they are NOT entitled to.   Remember that in any code of conduct that perceptions are very important also and even though not an actual violation, can cause an organization problems. 

Second, I believe your oft-stated overzealous desire to get CAP out of any Air Force-related uniforms and into polos, grey slacks and scarlet-letter red nameplates clouds your judgement where uniform issues are concerned.

I have no burning desire to see ANY changes in uniforms, because of the cost to the membership, many are struggling as it is to make ends meet and still dedicate significant time to the program.  Personally I'd hold off on any mandatory uniform changes for at least 3 years, with a phase out period of at least 2 years

I personally think the regulation needs to be tightened up a bit on this, to specifically state that normally the CAP uniform will NOT be worn when flying on commercial aircraft, unless an activity terminates and there's no time to change to meet the airline departure schedule.  This should be a rare instance.

What would your rationale be for wanting such a regulation implemented, other than your dislike for the uniform?

I'd like to point out that the regulation general chapter 1 & table of wear pertains to ALL CAP uniforms not just the AF style uniform 

Folks, there's a reason the rule was put in place about not wearing a CAP uniform more than one hour after (and should also be added BEFORE start of) a CAP meeting/activity (terminates) and the travel loophole needs to be further defined as to authorized stops. 
RM   

Which I have found, after almost 18 years in CAP, to be a completely illogical and unenforceable "rule."

I drive 40 minutes one way to/from my Squadron location.  What if the car's low on gas?  About 10 minutes to fill up, kein Problem.  Back into the car, onto the freeway...oops, that burrito I ate earlier today is starting to call me names...pull over to thank-God-conveniently-placed rest area to conduct necessary business, about 10 more minutes...OH CRIPES I'M OVER THE 60-MINUTE LIMIT!  Red 39-1 neon light and air raid siren kick in to let the entire human race know what a sorry excuse for a waste of human flesh I am (not to mention faithless CAP officer).

I have found that what the spirit, rather than the letter, of the law in this case means is don't go hanging around your local bar and grill on your way home from a CAP function.

As I've stated before there is a reason why CAP is restricting the time for uniform wear, IF it takes you longer to get home, than of course the regulation should (and does) allow for this as well as define what is a "necessary" stop.   BTW hanging around at the local coffee shop after the meeting in uniform also is a violation of the regulation.   

RM

[DC]

Members are usually encouraged to wear a uniform (usually blues with the lightweight blue jacket) when on travel to or from CAP activities.

Encouraged? Must be a local thing, because it's not encouraged around here. Even the cadets have been traveling in civvies as ordered by the NCSAs they are attending.

Its the same here.

Most NCSA's encourage you NOT to travel in uniform. I've been to one that did, simply as a visability thing, it helps the CAP people at the Airport picking you up to find you. But most activities Ive been to say its a big no no.

I've always worn a CAP t-shirt when going to NCSAs. I get to be comfy on the plane and not draw undue attention, but I am identifiable as a CAP member.

[Eclipse]

As I've stated before there is a reason why CAP is restricting the time for uniform wear

Yes, you've stated that several times, however you have failed to actually provide that reason.

BTW. hanging around at the local coffee shop after the meeting in uniform also is a violation of the regulation.

100% false.

[Spaceman3750]

BTW hanging around at the local coffee shop after the meeting in uniform also is a violation of the regulation.

ME: Hey SM Bagodoughnuts, I'm sorry that I didn't have a chance to meet with you tonight about getting started on Level II and your thoughts on what you might want to do for a specialty/duty position. Why don't we go grab a cup of coffee at Starshmucks and we can chat about it?

I'm "hanging around" the coffee shop after the meeting, but I'm performing CAP business. I'm sure I could come up with a dozen more reasons. But we're really good at blanket statements here on CT, and in all fairness we all do it.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I'll asked ALL our folks at my workplace to be on the lookout for.  Perhaps there's a non CAP forum I can also ask them to look for CAP members flying in uniform.

Unless you're trying to be humorous/ironic...which is possible since such things don't come through too well on the net...I don't get it.  What's your angle on that?

Again it gets down to better regulatory guidance on this matter.  It also involves self policing and other agencies such as the USO, taking the initiative to reporting members that attempt to get services they are NOT entitled to.   Remember that in any code of conduct that perceptions are very important also and even though not an actual violation, can cause an organization problems.

I know that, and I know that perceptions can often be very wrong, as in a case when I was mistaken on a quick shop-stop on the way home from a CAP function in the AF-type uniform for a store security guard.

You talk as if CAP members trying to get "services" from places like the USO is an everyday occurrence.  Personally, I've never heard of a CAP member doing such a bloody stupid thing.  I've never seen a CAP member in a USO facility, and I've seen quite a few of those in several airports.  I'm not saying it doesn't happen; just that I've never seen it.

Who would the USO report such a scofflaw to?  The local AF base or recruiter?  The AF is so disinterested in us for the most part (except where uniforms are concerned! ) that unless the "reporter" happened to talk to an officer, senior NCO or Airman with kids that are CAP Cadets, they wouldn't know what the "reporter" was referring to without researching it!

I have no burning desire to see ANY changes in uniforms, because of the cost to the membership, many are struggling as it is to make ends meet and still dedicate significant time to the program.  Personally I'd hold off on any mandatory uniform changes for at least 3 years, with a phase out period of at least 2 years.

I'll take your word for it, but it doesn't square with other comments you've made on CT.

I'd like to point out that the regulation general chapter 1 & table of wear pertains to ALL CAP uniforms not just the AF style uniform.

Again, what would your rationale be for altering the regs so drastically (contradicting above paragraph about "mandatory uniform changes")?  Such a statement comes off like we (CAP members) are naughty children who cannot be trusted to wear the uniform without close supervision (by who?)?

As I've stated before there is a reason why CAP is restricting the time for uniform wear, IF it takes you longer to get home, than of course the regulation should (and does) allow for this as well as define what is a "necessary" stop.   BTW hanging around at the local coffee shop after the meeting in uniform also is a violation of the regulation.

And just what criteria will be used to define a "necessary" stop?  Who will define it?  The odds of the august personages of NB and BoG actually agreeing on hard-and-fast definitions for that...I'd have a better chance at the lottery, and I don't play the lottery.

WRT the "coffee shop"...several years ago I was on an aircrew training exercise.  We went on break to a Denny's...about 15 of us, all wearing the sage-green flight suit, including some very senior lieutenant colonels.

Our cadets sometimes stop at Burger King, McDonald's, etc. on the way home from unit assemblies.  Our officers occasionally have a quick bite to eat together after.  I usually don't because my long drive makes it late when I get home anyway.

There is already a heck of a lot of resentment among many sectors of CAP members (many of whom I know personally, others who have stated so here on CT) over the way uniform issues have been (mis)handled, most notably (but not exclusively) the CSU...why stoke it any further?

[JC004]

You talk as if CAP members trying to get "services" from places like the USO is an everyday occurrence.  Personally, I've never heard of a CAP member doing such a bloody stupid thing.  I've never seen a CAP member in a USO facility, and I've seen quite a few of those in several airports.  I'm not saying it doesn't happen; just that I've never seen it.

Who would the USO report such a scofflaw to?

As someone who has spent quite a lot of time at the USO for many hundreds of hours for several years now, I can say this doesn't happen often.  Most often, if a member does appear, it's because they were admitted to another facility (specifically authorized) and wanted to know if they could be elsewhere too.  I've only ever seen one CAP member who likes to try getting into USO facilities on a CAP ID card and argues about it.

Most likely, it would be reported to nobody.  The USO is BUSY and there are A LOT of people of various descriptions who try gaining access to the USO - airline pilots, Coast Guard Auxiliary, PHS, NOAA Commissioned Corps, liars, contractors, diplomats, people with totally random veterans organizations' ID cards, TSA, federal personnel travel on non-military official business, the second cousin of someone who adopted a puppy born of a dog owned by a retired Army Sgt Major (that said, active duty dogs are authorized)...

Plus, the PHS people are FAR more irritating.  Just saying.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

PHS, NOAA Commissioned Corps...Plus, the PHS people are FAR more irritating.  Just saying.

Wouldn't these two uniformed services be able to legitimately access USO?

USPHS provides medical services for the Coast Guard, and when a USPHS officer is seconded to the USCG, they are under the UCMJ.

NOAA Commissioned Corps can be put under military jurisdiction...it doesn't happen a lot, but the provision is there.

I certainly wouldn't try to access USO facilities on a CAP ID card...however, I have thought of seeing if there's anything I can do for them toward my Community Service Ribbon - I'd like to use that volunteer time to benefit the troops somehow.

I would also certainly think that USO personnel are on the mark enough that if someone in CAP uniform would walk into a USO facility, and start trying to access USO services, they'd be put in their place quite quickly.

[Sleepwalker]

   I have attended many Encampments in my home state which required a three hour flight.  With my checked bag, garment bag,  and carry-on, I had no room left for my blues, so I wore the entire "Class A" uniform on the plane.  I was glad I was allowed to wear it, or I don't know how I would have brought it, and it looked just fine when I got off the plane.  I would not recommend wearing the uniform while flying unless you absolutely have to, but there were no problems, either.  It was just uncomfortable.         

[RADIOMAN015]

As I've stated before there is a reason why CAP is restricting the time for uniform wear

Yes, you've stated that several times, however you have failed to actually provide that reason.

BTW. hanging around at the local coffee shop after the meeting in uniform also is a violation of the regulation.

100% false.

The 1 hour rule is in 39-1 table 1.  Again, I don't think this was put in there just for the sake of making life difficult for CAP members.  I wasn't a member of CAP when this regulation was published, so I personally don't know the reason.
Sometimes incidents that reflect badly on CAP is the reason specific requirements are placed in regulations.

As far as the hanging around the local coffee shop greater than 1 hour after the CAP meeting, I would guess that some would make the argument that it was a "staff" meeting after the official meeting, so therefore was a CAP activity.     Frankly I believe the definition of a CAP activity, is primarily anything the member signs in for (and also signs out for, e.g. weekly unit meetings) OR for a cadet has documentation (such as parental permission) to attend.   Also IF any member is providing a briefing to community leaders, service clubs, public safety agencies, school recruiting, would also be included as long as the appropriate Unit Commander was aware of this and had given permission to perform the activity/duty.

As far as 'essential" stops before or after a meeting/CAP activity, surely we need some flexibility in this and the timing of the activity start/stop would indicate in some instances the 'essential" stop requirement.    Stopping to get gas, pickup office supplies for the meeting, restroom stop, (and some other things, I'm sure others can add to), BUT I would not expect a senior member in a CAP uniform to be in a supermarket doing their weekly shopping, nor ANYTIME drinking alcohol in a bar, or spending hours at the local coffee shop :angel: 

RM

     

[lordmonar]

And this has to do with wearing your uniform at the Airport??


The one hour rule does not apply to wearing the uniform on comercial airliners to and from a CAP actiivty.

[JC004]

PHS, NOAA Commissioned Corps...Plus, the PHS people are FAR more irritating.  Just saying.

Wouldn't these two uniformed services be able to legitimately access USO?

USPHS provides medical services for the Coast Guard, and when a USPHS officer is seconded to the USCG, they are under the UCMJ.

NOAA Commissioned Corps can be put under military jurisdiction...it doesn't happen a lot, but the provision is there.

I certainly wouldn't try to access USO facilities on a CAP ID card...however, I have thought of seeing if there's anything I can do for them toward my Community Service Ribbon - I'd like to use that volunteer time to benefit the troops somehow.

I would also certainly think that USO personnel are on the mark enough that if someone in CAP uniform would walk into a USO facility, and start trying to access USO services, they'd be put in their place quite quickly.

Negative.  As is told to them, armed services, not uniformed services.  It is not that volunteers and staff aren't sure what to do about PHS and NOAA because they were only told about Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, and Coast Guard - they're told specifically.  The USO would gladly accept your volunteering.  It isn't so much uniforms as ID cards.  There are too many uniforms for volunteers to memorize well and just about anyone can acquire a uniform.

[Eclipse]

As I've stated before there is a reason why CAP is restricting the time for uniform wear

Yes, you've stated that several times, however you have failed to actually provide that reason.

BTW. hanging around at the local coffee shop after the meeting in uniform also is a violation of the regulation.

100% false.

The 1 hour rule is in 39-1 table 1.

You didn't say anything about the 1-hour rule, you said going for coffee after a meeting is prohibited, which is 100% false.  It is not unusual at all
for people to live near enough to the meeting place to go for coffee after and still be home in an hour.

Again, I don't think this was put in there just for the sake of making life difficult for CAP members. I wasn't a member of CAP when this regulation was published, so I personally don't know the reason.

Great, glad that is settled.

As far as the hanging around the local coffee shop greater than 1 hour after the CAP meeting, I would guess that some would make the argument that it was a "staff" meeting after the official meeting, so therefore was a CAP activity.     Frankly I believe the definition of a CAP activity, is primarily anything the member signs in for (and also signs out for, e.g. weekly unit meetings) OR for a cadet has documentation (such as parental permission) to attend.   Also IF any member is providing a briefing to community leaders, service clubs, public safety agencies, school recruiting, would also be included as long as the appropriate Unit Commander was aware of this and had given permission to perform the activity/duty.

Glad we finally agree, however that is not what you originally asserted.

As far as 'essential" stops before or after a meeting/CAP activity, surely we need some flexibility in this and the timing of the activity start/stop would indicate in some instances the 'essential" stop requirement.    Stopping to get gas, pickup office supplies for the meeting, restroom stop, (and some other things, I'm sure others can add to), BUT I would not expect a senior member in a CAP uniform to be in a supermarket doing their weekly shopping, nor ANYTIME drinking alcohol in a bar, or spending hours at the local coffee shop.

There are a number of units which meet at or near establishments which serve coffee or alcohol.  You're entitled to your opinion, and if it says "Commander" on your business card, do what you like, however the consumption of neither alcohol nor coffee while in uniform is prohibited by regulation

[RADIOMAN015]

Eclipse wrote:
There are a number of units which meet at or near establishments which serve coffee or alcohol.  You're entitled to your opinion, and if it says "Commander" on your business card, do what you like, however the consumption of neither alcohol nor coffee while in uniform is prohibited by regulation....

We could also bring this into the airport in Blue Uniform discussion --  Surely drinking coffee, waiting for a scheduled airline flight is quite different than consuming alcohol, getting on a flight and having another alcoholic drink.

Personally, I think perception is very important in public relations.  IF you are in a CAP uniform, the right thing to do is to refrain from drinking alcohol, especially when flying commercial (or even if you are going to drive a vehicle).   Sometimes the body reacts differently to alcohol and even 1 drink may affect someone more than that individual is aware of.     Surely for those that like to drink alcohol, I've got an easy solution, don't fly commercial in ANY CAP uniform, and if you like having a nightcap before heading home from the meeting considering changing into civilian clothes.

Pretty simple solution, and will keep the organization out of trouble with the public.

RM 

[Buzz]

I suppose that TSA is like any large organization. They have the good ones and the goobers.

Well, the good ONE and the goobers, anyway . . .

[Zen Master Charlie]

I think there's enough distinction on the cadet side so there won't be any wanna bee factor

A cadet officer wearing the 3-button service coat is virtually indistinguishable from regular USAF officers, especially to the general public not in CAP or the military.

There's been senior members who have been playing this "wanna bee" game for some time and know EXACTLY what I am talking about

Please define.

Any senior member who violates the 1 hour uniform wear rule (CAPM 39-1, table 1-1, Wear of the CAP Uniform), especially any USAF type uniform (wonder why that rule ever got put on the books ).
Any senior member who flies on a commercial airline flight in a CAP USAF type uniform.   There's NO reason they need to be flying in uniform whatsoever.  The regulation never meant the transit time to include flying in commercial aircraft for many hours.
Frankly, I'd be laughing my butt off IF I ever got on a commercial airline and observed a CAP senior member in an AF type uniform on the same flight    I might even be temped to tell the stewardess/steward to pay special to that guy or girl since it was likely a "cult" spin off of the real CAP :angel:

Most adult senior member in CAP are NOT flying commercial in CAP AF type uniforms.  Most cadets are not flying commercial in CAP AF type uniforms. I don't think you will find ANYONE flying commercial to any cadet special activity/competition wearing a CAP uniform.  Just the comfort factor alone on a flight over 1 hour long would be a good logical reason.   Also why would ANYONE want to call attention to themselves.   When I was in the AF, we basically didn't call attention to ourselves by wearing our uniforms while traveling on commercial aircraft flights.   It's just plain good common sense personal security to NOT be in any uniform.   However, the "wanna bees" are definitely going to be in uniform, no doubt about it .
RM   

With this one statement, you are wrong.  NHGA requires you to fly in uniform if traveling commercial.  Inspection of uniform and deportment takes place the second the cadet departs the plane.  Such grand statements are what has little to no place here unless you personally have been to each and every activity across the nation.  Apparel when traveling is at the order of the individual director and they need not give a reason to the general membership.  Rigidly narrow minded one sided declarations of ones interpretation of regulations is a bane of many forums such as this.

We were required to wear our SS Blues to SUPTFC in Texas. Other than that though, I'd never be caught wearing my blues in an airport...

[Zen Master Charlie]

There are also those crazies who will choose to engage in a "baby killer", "GWB is satan", etc., discussions which no one wins, especially a cadet  In this day and age, the goal should be to get through the airport as quickly and discreetly as possible, while calling no attention to yourself whatsoever.

Oh god, I had some crazies chase me one day yelling they were going to beat me up because I was baby killer, while I was wearing my BDU's... luckily I ran cross country and they ran the X-box  It was scary though. ever since then I try to avoid the wear of my unifrom in public... unless I'm working for CAP at that time.

[Zen Master Charlie]

I also wanted to note my story from flying to SUPTFC. When I checked in, I was upgraded to first class from Denver to San Antonio, but I told the lady working for American that I was not an active duty soldier, and she responded "I was a CAP member once, don't worry about it." I was pretty happy with that response from her. I was kind of uncomfortable accepting the upgrade until she said that. Nice lady, there was no line so we chatted for a bit. I love running into former CAP memebrs, some of their stories are a real hoot.  But not in all cases (and I mean very rare) are they confused, she just wanted to pass it forward I guess.  :clap:

[ol'fido]

I had exactly the opposite experience a few years ago at Panda Express near Chicago. I was wearing BDUs and a kid wanted to have his picture taken with me.

[Zen Master Charlie]

I had exactly the opposite experience a few years ago at Panda Express near Chicago. I was wearing BDUs and a kid wanted to have his picture taken with me.

I've had that happen too, and I get the 'thankyou for your service' comments and even salutes from other cadet organizations all the time. It's kind of hard to deal with but in each case I have a way of dealing with it. If this kid was really young, just take the picture with him, then maybe explain to the parents who your with, and maybe try to recruite the little tyke in the future 

'Thankyou for your service' comments, well, I usually just say 'your welcome', or 'thankyou' no harm done, you do serve the community after all, and chances are they will forget by tomorrow.

Salutes, well, I always accept a salute, after all it is just a form of military courtesy, and It's actually kind of rude to not accept a salute, but I always make sure to explain to them, that we're with CAP, no need to salute etc, and they are usually cool with that, no questions asked. I get it alot since we meet at a Army ROTC building and we use the same cadet officer grade. What ever the case, a quick explination can never hurt, and if there is a time crunch, well, just go with the flow, again, no harm done, that kid just might laugh 10 years from now, but who cares. 

[Eclipse]

...I always make sure to explain to them, that we're with CAP, no need to salute etc...

Please don't do that anymore.  Just return the salute and move on.