Wearing CAP Blues in Airport

[spacecommand]

Frankly it's very dubious those adults that are wearing their CAP uniforms (especially the AF type uniforms), really have an interest in representing Civil Air Patrol, but instead our trolling for special favors due to confusion by airline personnel.

RM   

Your assumption is not always the case. 

[Eclipse]

No.  The regs are clear on transportation to and from activities.

Yes, in regards to liability when using member-owned vehicles (CAPR 900(10)(b).  That clearly states that traveling to and from CAP activities such as conferences in member-owned vehicles isn't considered part of "CAP official travel."  [/quote]
To and from missions?  I don't think that is clear at all.  If you're signed in to the mission, maybe, and my wing has started assigning transport sorties
to ease the 108 issues and answer the question definitively, but I don't see where jumping in your car to get to the mission base is any different than any other CAP activity, until you are signed in.

It would be nice if CAP had some specific language somewhere about what constitutes being on CAP duty.

Agreed.

[ol'fido]

They don't like to be specific, Bob. If they like what you did, you're a great leader showing initiative and boldness. If they don't, they say you violated the reg and hang you out to dry. They don't like to be pinned down.

[RiverAux]

To and from missions?  I don't think that is clear at all.  If you're signed in to the mission, maybe, and my wing has started assigning transport sorties
to ease the 108 issues and answer the question definitively, but I don't see where jumping in your car to get to the mission base is any different than any other CAP activity, until you are signed in.

Its actually crystal clear.  CAPR900(13)

13. FECA Coverage For CAP Members. FECA is the Workmen's Compensation Program for federal workers. By special law (5 USC 8141), FECA is made applicable to CAP seniors and cadets 18 and older while serving on Air Force-assigned missions, including travel to and from.

[lordmonar]

Folks, there's a reason the rule was put in place about not wearing a CAP uniform more than one hour after (and should also be added BEFORE start of) a CAP meeting/activity (terminates) and the travel loophole needs to be further defined as to authorized stops. 
RM   

Go back and read the rule.   

may wear service dress uniform or light blue, short or long sleeve shirt/blouse with tie/tab and the all-weather coat, overcoat, and raincoat when traveling by commercial means (other than to and from local CAP activities) (see note 2).

[Eclipse]

To and from missions?  I don't think that is clear at all.  If you're signed in to the mission, maybe, and my wing has started assigning transport sorties
to ease the 108 issues and answer the question definitively, but I don't see where jumping in your car to get to the mission base is any different than any other CAP activity, until you are signed in.

Its actually crystal clear.  CAPR900(13)

13. FECA Coverage For CAP Members. FECA is the Workmen's Compensation Program for federal workers. By special law (5 USC 8141), FECA is made applicable to CAP seniors and cadets 18 and older while serving on Air Force-assigned missions, including travel to and from.

1/2 credit for being mostly correct, but it is not as clear as that.  Coverage is only afforded to activities incidental to the mission, and per the AFAM pamphlet, travel to and from home or periodically during the mission may, in fact, not be covered.
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/FECA_BROCHURE_A681B147556FA.pdf (Another bad logo, and a poor job formatting the .pdf).

[Hawk200]

Similar thing happens to me every time I shop at my local army navy store. Same story no matter what: I buy often copious quantities of only USAF uniform items, the person asks me if I'm on AD, I say I'm CAP, thy ask me for my ID so they can give me the 10% discount. I always refuse. I feel that to accept the discount would be wrong, and a violation of my integrity. I always feel that to accept the discount is taking advantagE of the clerk's lack of knowledge what CAP is. But like Daniel L said- you must be polite about refusing. They're going out of their way to help you out.

If the vendor knows exactly what CAP is, it's not an integrity issue. If they don't, then it would be. I know a couple places that know exactly what CAP is, and essentially offers CAP discounts that are at the same rate as military.

Personally, I don't ask for them. If it's offered(which almost never happens) and the vendor knows what CAP is, I'll accept. But if it's not, I don't ask.

[titanII]

If the vendor knows exactly what CAP is, it's not an integrity issue. If they don't, then it would be. I know a couple places that know exactly what CAP is, and essentially offers CAP discounts that are at the same rate as military.

Personally, I don't ask for them. If it's offered(which almost never happens) and the vendor knows what CAP is, I'll accept. But if it's not, I don't ask.

To ask for it just feels wrong to me, no matter the "rules".

[Hawk200]

If the vendor knows exactly what CAP is, it's not an integrity issue. If they don't, then it would be. I know a couple places that know exactly what CAP is, and essentially offers CAP discounts that are at the same rate as military.

Personally, I don't ask for them. If it's offered(which almost never happens) and the vendor knows what CAP is, I'll accept. But if it's not, I don't ask.

To ask for it just feels wrong to me, no matter the "rules".

I agree. Asking just seems in poor taste to me, but that's just my viewpoint.

[titanII]

If the vendor knows exactly what CAP is, it's not an integrity issue. If they don't, then it would be. I know a couple places that know exactly what CAP is, and essentially offers CAP discounts that are at the same rate as military.

Personally, I don't ask for them. If it's offered(which almost never happens) and the vendor knows what CAP is, I'll accept. But if it's not, I don't ask.

To ask for it just feels wrong to me, no matter the "rules".

I agree. Asking just seems in poor taste to me, but that's just my viewpoint.

A viewpoint that we share. Accepting the discount feel like I'm abusing a privilege meant for AD military- which I am not.

[RiverAux]

To and from missions?  I don't think that is clear at all.  If you're signed in to the mission, maybe, and my wing has started assigning transport sorties
to ease the 108 issues and answer the question definitively, but I don't see where jumping in your car to get to the mission base is any different than any other CAP activity, until you are signed in.

Its actually crystal clear.  CAPR900(13)

13. FECA Coverage For CAP Members. FECA is the Workmen's Compensation Program for federal workers. By special law (5 USC 8141), FECA is made applicable to CAP seniors and cadets 18 and older while serving on Air Force-assigned missions, including travel to and from.

1/2 credit for being mostly correct, but it is not as clear as that.  Coverage is only afforded to activities incidental to the mission, and per the AFAM pamphlet, travel to and from home or periodically during the mission may, in fact, not be covered.
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/FECA_BROCHURE_A681B147556FA.pdf (Another bad logo, and a poor job formatting the .pdf).

That pamphlet says in multiple locations that travel to and from AFAMs is covered as well as one statement saying that it MAY not be covered.  Seems to me that either the regulation, pamphlet, or both needs some serious re-considering. 

But, in the context of this discussion, if you're flying commercial to an AFAM, it seems pretty clear that it would be covered. 

[DakRadz]

I'm going to inject some on-topic common sense.

If you're going to wear blues through the airport, to include the metal detectors, do NOT wear shirt-stays unless you'd like to be subject to the myriad "alternate search techniques" the TSA can provide.

I did this on a CAP trip (where the entire event was about the flight itself, so we HAD to wear our blues) and the shirt stays are metal that sets off the detector. Nothing else will. Not your ribbon holder, rank, or anything else.

[AirDX]

AD are allowed and even encouraged to fly in unifrom....at least domestically.  Uniforms to and from the AOR are required IIRC.

Domestically I don't know, but for AD internationally uniforms are essentially forbidden unless on a contract or AMC flight:

E. UNIFORM REQUIREMENTS
USCENTCOM dress requirements for all travel to or from the USCENTCOM Area of Responsibility (AOR) except the R&R leave travel discussed below under I.E.2.
Individuals or small groups traveling on commercial air or rotator flights must wear civilian clothing.
Groups or units authorized to travel in prescribed uniforms must carry appropriate conservative civilian clothing for use during extended transit delays at commercial airports.
Aircrew may wear flight suits provided they do not depart the installation or the terminal area of a commercial airport.
USCENTCOM dress requirements for R&R leave travel to or from the USCENTCOM AOR.
Troops departing from or arriving in the AOR on contract R&R leave flights must wear desert battle dress uniforms (DBDUs). Those departing the AOR may change into civilian attire once they reach the first aerial port of debarkation (APOD) outside the AOR, whether in CONUS or outside CONUS.
Troops departing from or arriving in the AOR on commercial air must wear appropriate civilian attire. Uniforms are not authorized for R&R leave travel on commercial air originating from the AOR.

EUCOM says the same:

E. UNIFORM REQUIREMENTS
All personnel (to include those on leave) arriving to or traveling within the USEUCOM AOR via commercial means will wear civilian clothing that does not readily convey affiliation with DoD.
Military personnel traveling via military/military contract transportation will wear the uniform prescribed in their deployment or travel orders. Commanders will ensure personnel have access to civilian clothing in order to reduce their signature in the event it becomes necessary to stage at the civilian side of an airport.
Personnel will take steps to limit wearing and carrying items that display a distinct DoD or US signature, and should wear appropriate civilian clothing that blends into the local environment when outside installations and bases. Personnel will wear civilian clothing when not on duty.

PACOM breaks it down by country, for example Thailand:

E. UNIFORM REQUIREMENTS
Perceptions of US military presence in Thailand should be minimized as much as possible. Therefore, do not wear uniforms off base.

[ol'fido]

Yes, when in Thailand, don't wear dress blues to the "fish bowl".

[AngelWings]

AD are allowed and even encouraged to fly in unifrom....at least domestically.  Uniforms to and from the AOR are required IIRC.

Domestically I don't know, but for AD internationally uniforms are essentially forbidden unless on a contract or AMC flight:

E. UNIFORM REQUIREMENTS
USCENTCOM dress requirements for all travel to or from the USCENTCOM Area of Responsibility (AOR) except the R&R leave travel discussed below under I.E.2.
Individuals or small groups traveling on commercial air or rotator flights must wear civilian clothing.
Groups or units authorized to travel in prescribed uniforms must carry appropriate conservative civilian clothing for use during extended transit delays at commercial airports.
Aircrew may wear flight suits provided they do not depart the installation or the terminal area of a commercial airport.
USCENTCOM dress requirements for R&R leave travel to or from the USCENTCOM AOR.
Troops departing from or arriving in the AOR on contract R&R leave flights must wear desert battle dress uniforms (DBDUs). Those departing the AOR may change into civilian attire once they reach the first aerial port of debarkation (APOD) outside the AOR, whether in CONUS or outside CONUS.
Troops departing from or arriving in the AOR on commercial air must wear appropriate civilian attire. Uniforms are not authorized for R&R leave travel on commercial air originating from the AOR.

EUCOM says the same:

E. UNIFORM REQUIREMENTS
All personnel (to include those on leave) arriving to or traveling within the USEUCOM AOR via commercial means will wear civilian clothing that does not readily convey affiliation with DoD.
Military personnel traveling via military/military contract transportation will wear the uniform prescribed in their deployment or travel orders. Commanders will ensure personnel have access to civilian clothing in order to reduce their signature in the event it becomes necessary to stage at the civilian side of an airport.
Personnel will take steps to limit wearing and carrying items that display a distinct DoD or US signature, and should wear appropriate civilian clothing that blends into the local environment when outside installations and bases. Personnel will wear civilian clothing when not on duty.

PACOM breaks it down by country, for example Thailand:

E. UNIFORM REQUIREMENTS
Perceptions of US military presence in Thailand should be minimized as much as possible. Therefore, do not wear uniforms off base.

That text is from the 90's (DBDU=Desert Storm Uniform). Is there a updated version out?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I highly doubt that the vast majority of senior "adult" members, wear their CAP blue uniforms (or any CAP uniform for that matter) while flying on commercial aircraft.

Statistics?

Frankly it's very dubious those adults that are wearing their CAP uniforms (especially the AF type uniforms), really have an interest in representing Civil Air Patrol, but instead our trolling for special favors due to confusion by airline personnel.

First, you assume too much, and you know what the breakdown of the word assume is.  You cannot, and do not know, what is in the mind and heart of every CAP member, and that includes the ones who wear the AF type uniform.  In a large airport, a CAP uniform would be one uniform among many.  I haven't yet been in a major airport, especially since 9/11, that wasn't filled with various uniformed service personnel going to and from destinations.

Second, I believe your oft-stated overzealous desire to get CAP out of any Air Force-related uniforms and into polos, grey slacks and scarlet-letter red nameplates clouds your judgement where uniform issues are concerned.

I personally think the regulation needs to be tightened up a bit on this, to specifically state that normally the CAP uniform will NOT be worn when flying on commercial aircraft, unless an activity terminates and there's no time to change to meet the airline departure schedule.  This should be a rare instance.

What would your rationale be for wanting such a regulation implemented, other than your dislike for the uniform?

Folks, there's a reason the rule was put in place about not wearing a CAP uniform more than one hour after (and should also be added BEFORE start of) a CAP meeting/activity (terminates) and the travel loophole needs to be further defined as to authorized stops. 
RM   

Which I have found, after almost 18 years in CAP, to be a completely illogical and unenforceable "rule."

I drive 40 minutes one way to/from my Squadron location.  What if the car's low on gas?  About 10 minutes to fill up, kein Problem.  Back into the car, onto the freeway...oops, that burrito I ate earlier today is starting to call me names...pull over to thank-God-conveniently-placed rest area to conduct necessary business, about 10 more minutes...OH CRIPES I'M OVER THE 60-MINUTE LIMIT!  Red 39-1 neon light and air raid siren kick in to let the entire human race know what a sorry excuse for a waste of human flesh I am (not to mention faithless CAP officer).

(cue Klingon Discommendation ritual from "Star Trek")

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYJmFOxNew0&feature=related

I have found that what the spirit, rather than the letter, of the law in this case means is don't go hanging around your local bar and grill on your way home from a CAP function.

[AirDX]

That text is from the 90's (DBDU=Desert Storm Uniform). Is there a updated version out?

That's from the current version of the Electronic Foreign Clearance Guide: https://www.fcg.pentagon.mil/

Login or CAC required.

[BillB]

It can also be said that cadets driving 6 or 7 hours to get to an encampment violate the one hour rule since they must be in uniform to check in. In attending a Southeast Region Commanders Call, I travelled in uniform on commercial airline. The reason being I was required to be in unifoprm to check into BOQ, and transportation from Montgomery's commercial airport to Maxwell required AF transportation in uniform. Doubt that rule still applies. Did I wear the uniform to get a discount of some kind?  No. It was easier to travel in uniform than to attempt to unpack one from luggage in the mens room and change. (and miss the AF shuttle).

[RADIOMAN015]

It can also be said that cadets driving 6 or 7 hours to get to an encampment violate the one hour rule since they must be in uniform to check in. In attending a Southeast Region Commanders Call, I travelled in uniform on commercial airline. The reason being I was required to be in unifoprm to check into BOQ, and transportation from Montgomery's commercial airport to Maxwell required AF transportation in uniform. Doubt that rule still applies. Did I wear the uniform to get a discount of some kind?  No. It was easier to travel in uniform than to attempt to unpack one from luggage in the mens room and change. (and miss the AF shuttle).

There's no requirement to be in uniform to check into the BOQ or to be transported by AF ground transportation BUT you must have the appropriate (or pre coordinated) written authorization.  Not sure where that regulatory guidance came from.
RM

[Eclipse]

It can also be said that cadets driving 6 or 7 hours to get to an encampment violate the one hour rule since they must be in uniform to check in. In attending a Southeast Region Commanders Call, I travelled in uniform on commercial airline. The reason being I was required to be in unifoprm to check into BOQ, and transportation from Montgomery's commercial airport to Maxwell required AF transportation in uniform. Doubt that rule still applies. Did I wear the uniform to get a discount of some kind?  No. It was easier to travel in uniform than to attempt to unpack one from luggage in the mens room and change. (and miss the AF shuttle).

We require cadets report in uniform to encampment as well, mainly because the vast majority are commuting by car less than 4 hours and we'd prefer they didn't even bring civvies, but it's not like we wouldn't let them in if they had to go and change once they were assigned a rack.

As to the BOQ's, I've used USAF and Navy facilities and there was never any issue with checking in, or using them, in civilian clothes.  Either you've authorized to utilize the facility or you aren't.  CAP is almost always Space-A.  Some bases require an MSA or advance approval, some do not.