ABU's???

[jimmydeanno]

Off the top of your head, what percentage of CAP members are "5'7" bodybuilders with .0000001% body fat" who would benefit from taping?

Probably the same as the number of cadet officers who are absolutely unable to attend an RCLS or COS and MUST take an online equivalent.  However, we seemed to put the manpower and effort into creating that program...

I'm not in favor of doing taping, just as I'm not in favor of the online COS program, but I digress.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Off the top of your head, what percentage of CAP members are "5'7" bodybuilders with .0000001% body fat" who would benefit from taping?

I personally do not know any.

I was pointing out what to me is a glaring inconsistency.

[Ned]

I was pointing out what to me is a glaring inconsistency.

I suppose that all compromises are inconsistent to some extent.

Given the AF's insistence on some sort of height/weight standards, a policy choice was made to keep the system as simple and "easy to administer" as possible. 

Logically we could certainly add taping, dunk tanks, or electrostatic bodyfat instrumentation to try to reach the same end.  But that would require training, equipment, and record-keeping requirements to already over-burdened unit commanders and staff members.

(and it would also require AF approval - which would take a fair amount of work and is not certain of approval.)

So our leaders selected/compromised on a method that was easy to administer and still keep our AF colleagues happy.  But I can only agree that when compared to the methods the USAF uses for its own uniformed personnel, at least some CAP members who would qualify under a body-fat determination will wind up performing Missions for America wearing corporates.

And I, for one, genuinely appreciate their service in whatever uniform they wear.

[pilot97]

seems to me that we'd be better off going entirely to Blue BDUs; ABUs are more expensive, and come with the added cost of a new pair of vomit-green boots.

blue camouflage looks terrible, no offense meant to navy people, but Civil AIR Patrol is part of the Air Force...I heard from an Air Force First Sergeant, ~5 yrs. before we'll end up in ABU's .

[tsrup]

seems to me that we'd be better off going entirely to Blue BDUs; ABUs are more expensive, and come with the added cost of a new pair of vomit-green boots.

blue camouflage looks terrible, no offense meant to navy people, but Civil AIR Patrol is part of the Air Force...I heard from an Air Force First Sergeant, ~5 yrs. before we'll end up in ABU's .

I think he meant the solid blue BDU's that are already authorized for wear by Senior Members.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I think he meant the solid blue BDU's that are already authorized for wear by Senior Members.

I'm surprised they didn't make the BBDU's grey.

[tsrup]

I think he meant the solid blue BDU's that are already authorized for wear by Senior Members.

I'm surprised they didn't make the BBDU's grey.

[PHall]

I think he meant the solid blue BDU's that are already authorized for wear by Senior Members.

I'm surprised they didn't make the BBDU's grey.

Isn't that the CAF's uniform?

[Extremepredjudice]

There is really anything to see yet.  The NUC has been tasked with a pretty big job and is moving methodicallty and carefully through it.  Initially, it developed recommendations for the corporate-style uniforms.  Now it is working on USAF-style uniforms and is reviewing and considering recommendations for - among other things - ABUs.  A little like CAPTalk, the NUC members have differing opinions on the possibility of recommending adoption of ABUs and are currently discussing and debating the issue.  It is not yet clear how the NUC will come down on the issue.  Our conference calls are filled with the same issues discussed so passionately here - things like costs to members, distinctiveness, whether or not or USAF partners are likely to appove a given recommendation, whether we should wait for the "uniform after ABU," etc.

And remember, once the NUC settles on recommendations, the recommendations will have to go to the NB for further debate and possible action.  The NB may adopt all, some, or none of the NUC's recommendations.  The NB may substitute some or all of their own recommendations.

And when and if a package is approved, it will have to go to the USAF.  Who undoubtedly will have to perform their own staff analysis which will take some time.  And they may approve all, some , or none of any package we submit.

So the process is underway.  But given all of the multiple approval processes, there is no significant chance of seening changes to USAF-style uniforms for many, many months.

If not a year or more.

Ned Lee
Member of many committees, including the NUC.

Sir, maybe it would be a good idea to ask the CAP-USAF commander what he thinks...(like directly)  :angel:

It might settle this debate that keeps coming up.

[Ned]

Sir, maybe it would be a good idea to ask the CAP-USAF commander what he thinks...(like directly)  :angel:

It might settle this debate that keeps coming up.

Well, that's the problem.  Col Gloyd is an outstanding officer and a huge supporter of the cadet program and all, but his personal opinion is just not very helpful one way or another.  Because CAP uniforms are not his decision. 

When we submit requests for uniform approvals, Col Gloyd sends the package up through the USAF chain of command to the Air Staff.  Each intermediate level performs an analysis, but the ultimate call on CAP uniforms belongs the the Chief of Staff (or someone acting in his name.) 

And not Col Gloyd.

[Extremepredjudice]

Sir, maybe it would be a good idea to ask the CAP-USAF commander what he thinks...(like directly)  :angel:

It might settle this debate that keeps coming up.

Well, that's the problem.  Col Gloyd is an outstanding officer and a huge supporter of the cadet program and all, but his personal opinion is just not very helpful one way or another.  Because CAP uniforms are not his decision. 

When we submit requests for uniform approvals, Col Gloyd sends the package up through the USAF chain of command to the Air Staff.  Each intermediate level performs an analysis, but the ultimate call on CAP uniforms belongs the the Chief of Staff (or someone acting in his name.) 

And not Col Gloyd.

No disrespect sir,

He still has influence. Unless he is entirely ineffectual (you tell me, I don't know, I'd hate to imply something that isn't true). His recommendation carries some weight. The chief of staff may have no opinion on CAP, or what uniform we use... So he could(possibly) be swayed by the commander of the program. Or the chief of staff hates Col. Gloyd, and down-checks it just cause.

[PHall]

Sir, maybe it would be a good idea to ask the CAP-USAF commander what he thinks...(like directly)  :angel:

It might settle this debate that keeps coming up.

Well, that's the problem.  Col Gloyd is an outstanding officer and a huge supporter of the cadet program and all, but his personal opinion is just not very helpful one way or another.  Because CAP uniforms are not his decision. 

When we submit requests for uniform approvals, Col Gloyd sends the package up through the USAF chain of command to the Air Staff.  Each intermediate level performs an analysis, but the ultimate call on CAP uniforms belongs the the Chief of Staff (or someone acting in his name.) 

And not Col Gloyd.

No disrespect sir,

He still has influence. Unless he is entirely ineffectual (you tell me, I don't know, I'd hate to imply something that isn't true). His recommendation carries some weight. The chief of staff may have no opinion on CAP, or what uniform we use... So he could(possibly) be swayed by the commander of the program. Or the chief of staff hates Col. Gloyd, and down-checks it just cause.

Problem is that Col Gloyd is just that, a Colonel. The folks who are making these decisions wear two and three Stars.
On their staffs, Colonels are the guys who "staff" the package for the General to either Approve or Disapprove.
The CAP-USAF/CC is not that far up the food chain.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Well, that's the problem.  Col Gloyd is an outstanding officer and a huge supporter of the cadet program and all

What about the other two legs of the CAP stool, Ned?  Is the Colonel a huge supporter of those as well?

I ask that because I've noticed that quite a few on the AF side only seem to care about the cadets...

[Ned]

Well, that's the problem.  Col Gloyd is an outstanding officer and a huge supporter of the cadet program and all

What about the other two legs of the CAP stool, Ned?  Is the Colonel a huge supporter of those as well?

I ask that because I've noticed that quite a few on the AF side only seem to care about the cadets...

I must admit that sometimes my humor is a little too subtle.

Of course Col Gloyd supports all of our missions.  And like every good parent, "he loves each mission equally."   

And if you think the AF only cares about the cadet program, you'd think CP would do a little better in the funding department.

As you know, CP gets only a small fraction of appropriated funds channeled through the AF.

We have certainly discussed that in other threads.   

[Thrashed]

seems to me that we'd be better off going entirely to Blue BDUs; ABUs are more expensive, and come with the added cost of a new pair of vomit-green boots.

blue camouflage looks terrible, no offense meant to navy people, but Civil AIR Patrol is part of the Air Force...I heard from an Air Force First Sergeant, ~5 yrs. before we'll end up in ABU's .

It's blue, not any type of camoflage, unless you are in a smurf village. What better color for "part of the Air Force" than blue?!!

[Eclipse]

I heard from an Air Force First Sergeant, ~5 yrs. before we'll end up in ABU's.

What does a random First Shirt know about it?

[ol'fido]

Probably as much as any of us know about it.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Of course Col Gloyd supports all of our missions.  And like every good parent, "he loves each mission equally."   

And if you think the AF only cares about the cadet program, you'd think CP would do a little better in the funding department.

Point taken, sir.

My question came from my own experience with some LO's/State Directors.

One in particular came round to visit my squadron some years ago.  His little "pep talk" focussed solely on cadets, particularly getting them to earn their Mitchell (E-3 and all...).  He had nothing to say to the senior side (this was a composite unit) except to "motivate your cadets to get their Mitchell."

If Colonel Gloyd doesn't have much influence on what does or doesn't get approved for CAP, who does?

Going next levels up:

BG Watkins at Holm Ctr?
LtGen Fadok at Air University?
General Rice at AETC?

[Ned]

If Colonel Gloyd doesn't have much influence on what does or doesn't get approved for CAP, who does?

Going next levels up:

BG Watkins at Holm Ctr?
LtGen Fadok at Air University?
General Rice at AETC?

Yup, it's a mystery all right.

It sure would be a lot easier if our AF partners would just appoint a single POC for CAP uniform issues.  Someone we could negotiate with and say things like "if we went with navy blue tapes on ABUs would that be more or less "distinctive" for CAP purposes?" Or "since larger members can look more professional wearing the service dress with jacket when compared to just a short sleeve service uniform, could we work a deal where our larger members could wear service dress (only) so they can display their earned awards and decorations?"

It sure would make it easier at our end.  As it is, it feels sometimes like we are negotiating against ourselves.

It is hard to understand why the AF hasn't designated someone with authority in this regard.  Since they haven't, each time we submit a request for a change, their staff process may be compeletly different each time.  With different staffers weighting different factors differently in their staff analyses each time.

If I had to guess, I suspect that they simply haven't felt the need to do so because CAP doesn.t request many changes, so they can route the request on an ad hoc basis each time.

Your guess is as good as mine.

[RiverAux]

[CAP doesn.t request many changes

Are you British or is understatement just natural to you?