Regulations to get "maksman", "sharpshooter", ect.?

[Hawk200]

What stinks about this issue is the intent. Yes, the wording has changed. So technically according to the way the regs are worded, cadets can no longer wear the marksmanship badges. But the intent of the regs is for cadets to do just that. So its a case of cadets being denied the chance to wear an earned badge while getting some great training that is fun and will stick with them for life.

Yet another reason that we need a updated and very current uniform manual.

That doesn't necessarily follow. I've actually seen the badge that the manual referred to. It was a competitive marksmanship badge, very similar in concept to the DCM badges, and took a great deal to earn. I asked the cadet that had it how long it took for him to get it, and he told me that he'd been going to matches for almost  a year. So, the NRA badges you see cadets wearing these days aren't even remotely close in concept, and therefore intent is far different. Cadets aren't being denied the wear of anything that's actually equivalent (or even close to equivalent) to the one referenced in the manual.

Now if National wants to authorize the NRA badges for wear, I'll accept it. I don't they should be authorized though. A competition award shows dedication. A badge that you can get for a day at the range doesn't. Months of work (even a year) are worth recognizing. One day is not.

Allowing bling for the sake of bling doesn't serve any practical purpose.

[MIKE]

Any volunteers to put together a suggested paragraph or two?

Just use the existing courses of fire for the NRA Marksmanship Qualification Program.  But I would add that in order to qualify for CAP, it must be a properly supervised activity IAW CAPR 52-16 and CAPR 900-3... State which courses of fire can be considered, if there are any limitations.  Create a qualification form (CAPF 2 series?) or memorandum for record.

[cap235629]

What stinks about this issue is the intent. Yes, the wording has changed. So technically according to the way the regs are worded, cadets can no longer wear the marksmanship badges. But the intent of the regs is for cadets to do just that. So its a case of cadets being denied the chance to wear an earned badge while getting some great training that is fun and will stick with them for life.

Yet another reason that we need a updated and very current uniform manual.

That doesn't necessarily follow. I've actually seen the badge that the manual referred to. It was a competitive marksmanship badge, very similar in concept to the DCM badges, and took a great deal to earn. I asked the cadet that had it how long it took for him to get it, and he told me that he'd been going to matches for almost  a year. So, the NRA badges you see cadets wearing these days aren't even remotely close in concept, and therefore intent is far different. Cadets aren't being denied the wear of anything that's actually equivalent (or even close to equivalent) to the one referenced in the manual.

Now if National wants to authorize the NRA badges for wear, I'll accept it. I don't they should be authorized though. A competition award shows dedication. A badge that you can get for a day at the range doesn't. Months of work (even a year) are worth recognizing. One day is not.

Allowing bling for the sake of bling doesn't serve any practical purpose.

I am a marksmanship instructor and the qualification program that the NRA now has cannot be completed in "a day at the range".  It is a progressive qualification program.

The DCM program is a great one as well but the medals are in short supply and no longer mass produced but can be ordered in limited quantities.

To Ned Lee: PM me and I will help you draft the language.  I have spoken to Joe Curry and Curt Lafond about this and have suggested by email that the next revision reflect the new program.  Perhaps the answer is to design a CAP specific medal similar to the JROTC medals and designate either the DCM or NRA standards for awarding the medal.

[cap235629]

Something similar in design to this.

[cap235629]

or rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, adopt the National 3 position Air Rifle Program that JROTC uses and allow our cadets to qualify for those badges and compete against JROTC cadets in matches. 


Qualification Regulations

National Standard 3 Position Air Rifle Rules

And if you want to add rimfire adopt the Rimfire Sporter course of fire

Rimfire Sporter

and add the smallbore rifle bar to the medal

[Hawk200]

I am a marksmanship instructor and the qualification program that the NRA now has cannot be completed in "a day at the range".  It is a progressive qualification program.

I stand corrected. I'd actually heard that from one of the cadets that had earned one that it hadn't taken long. I had the impression that it was only a day.

How long is the actual program?

Perhaps the answer is to design a CAP specific medal similar to the JROTC medals and designate either the DCM or NRA standards for awarding the medal.

or rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, adopt the National 3 position Air Rifle Program that JROTC uses and allow our cadets to qualify for those badges and compete against JROTC cadets in matches.

Rather than reinventing the wheel at all, just allow the badges that the NRA awards. I really don't see any reason to give Vanguard something else to overcharge us for. Besides, cadets are wearing the NRA badges anyway.

Not to mention, it would be a lot easier to just write them in. All you have to say is "X, Y, And Z badges are authorized for wear when awarded by the NRA." Add a requirement that any awards certificates be maintained in the personnel file, and you're done. No fancy committees, no special teams to produce criteria, nothing fancy. Any insistances on special study groups are just going to be supporting someone's ego.

[cap235629]

How long is the actual program?

Here is the basic qualification for light rifle.  You have to score the minimum score for each level anywhere from 2 to 5 times to earn the qualification.  The time frame varies based upon the skill of the shooter.

Course of fire is 10 shots per position (Standing, Kneeling and Prone) at either 50 feet or 50 yards with appropriate targets

Basic Practical                           Earned upon completion of NRA Basic Rifle Course
Pro-Marksman                          135/300    2 times
Marksman                                150/300    2 times
Marksman 1st Class                   180/300    2 times
Sharpshooter                            225/300    3 times
Expert                                     255/300    4 times
Distinguished Expert                   275/300 or better 5 times
                                              or 275/300 2 times at a Light Rifle NRA postal match.

[Hawk200]

How long is the actual program?

Here is the basic qualification for light rifle.  You have to score the minimum score for each level anywhere from 2 to 5 times to earn the qualification.  The time frame varies based upon the skill of the shooter.

Course of fire is 10 shots per position (Standing, Kneeling and Prone) at either 50 feet or 50 yards with appropriate targets

Basic Practical                           Earned upon completion of NRA Basic Rifle Course
Pro-Marksman                          135/300    2 times
Marksman                                150/300    2 times
Marksman 1st Class                   180/300    2 times
Sharpshooter                            225/300    3 times
Expert                                     255/300    4 times
Distinguished Expert                   275/300 or better 5 times
                                              or 275/300 2 times at a Light Rifle NRA postal match.

Would you have a link to pics of the badges? Full color photos prefereably. I'm kind of curious now as to which ones all the cadets I've seen wearing are which.  I'm assuming colors for each are different?

A link on the basic rifle course you mentioned would be nice as well. I'm truly wondering how much time is spent on this program.

[cap235629]

How long is the actual program?

Here is the basic qualification for light rifle.  You have to score the minimum score for each level anywhere from 2 to 5 times to earn the qualification.  The time frame varies based upon the skill of the shooter.

Course of fire is 10 shots per position (Standing, Kneeling and Prone) at either 50 feet or 50 yards with appropriate targets

Basic Practical                           Earned upon completion of NRA Basic Rifle Course
Pro-Marksman                          135/300    2 times
Marksman                                150/300    2 times
Marksman 1st Class                   180/300    2 times
Sharpshooter                            225/300    3 times
Expert                                     255/300    4 times
Distinguished Expert                   275/300 or better 5 times
                                              or 275/300 2 times at a Light Rifle NRA postal match.

Would you have a link to pics of the badges? Full color photos prefereably. I'm kind of curious now as to which ones all the cadets I've seen wearing are which.  I'm assuming colors for each are different?

A link on the basic rifle course you mentioned would be nice as well. I'm truly wondering how much time is spent on this program.

Here is a link to the Qualifications Program.  There are pictures of the medals toward the end.

Here is a description of the Basic Rifle Course:

Name : NRA Basic Rifle Shooting Course

Short Description : Teaches the basic knowledge, skills, and attitude necessary for the safe use of a rifle in target shooting.

More Details: This course is at least 14 hours long and includes classroom and range time learning to shoot rifles. Students learn NRA's rules for safe gun handling; rifle parts and operation; ammunition; shooting fundamentals; range rules; shooting from the bench rest, prone, sitting, standing and kneeling positions; cleaning, and continued opportunities for skill development. Students will receive the Basics of Rifle Shooting handbook, NRA Gun Safety Rules brochure, Winchester/NRA Marksmanship Qualification booklet, take a Basics of Rifle Shooting Student Examination, and course completion certificate.

[costabile.matt]

Hello from sunny and hot Phoenix. 

I would be interested to know of the current status of the Marksmanship Qualification.  It seems to me that marksmanship is an excellent skill that would benefit cadets.  I am unsure of why we're letting an expired regulation get in the way of Cadets not earning this qualification.

So, what is the process for getting the regulation changed to reflect the new title of the NRA program?  Specifically, what can I do to help this issue toward resolution?

1Lt Matthew Costabile
Deer Valley Composite Squadron 302

[Eclipse]

Hello from sunny and hot Phoenix. 

I would be interested to know of the current status of the Marksmanship Qualification.

There has never been a CAP "Marksman Qualification", and as of the current revision of the regs, there is no program, external or internal,
which allows for the wear of any badges related to firearms (except for military personnel, and those are pretty controversial).

[costabile.matt]

If marksmanship qualification is the incorrect term then I stand corrected.  I'll re-state the question though:  Why has a change in the regulations essentially "expired" the ability for a Cadet to earn the marksmanship badge?  It would seem that there would be quite a bit of support at the Squadron level for seeing this type of program instituted.  No?

[lordmonar]

If marksmanship qualification is the incorrect term then I stand corrected.  I'll re-state the question though:  Why has a change in the regulations essentially "expired" the ability for a Cadet to earn the marksmanship badge?  It would seem that there would be quite a bit of support at the Squadron level for seeing this type of program instituted.  No?

The regulation did not change.....NRA changed.

The NRA used to have a youth marksmaship award....the one that is mentioned in 39-1.  A few years ago NRA changed their program.  That badge and that qualification is now gone...replaced by another badge and another program.  So.....in the interveining years many squadrons just went by the spirit of the regulation and kept on authorising the new NRA badge...but a few months ago NHQ told us to stop doing that until they figure it out.

So...as of now....you can do weapons training....but no badges.

[Eclipse]

It would seem that there would be quite a bit of support at the Squadron level for seeing this type of program instituted.  No?

No.  It is something cadets enjoy, but the resources required are hard to come by.
In my 11+ years it has never come up in even conversation, and I am aware of only a handful of times that anyone in my
wing has participated in any live fire activities, and based on my knowledge of the situation, a couple of those were probably done
outside the regs (seniors participating, etc.).

[costabile.matt]

Oh, that makes everything quite a bit clearer.  But, if resources were available, I would imagine a fair number of participating Squadrons across the country.  You're right, the trick is in identifying the resources.

As for the interest, I would bet a fair amount of hands would be raised if we asked "any interest in marksmanship?" at our next meeting 

SO, I am trying to understand the process involved in NHQ "figuring it out".  Would you be willing to explain?

Thank you!

[Eclipse]

SO, I am trying to understand the process involved in NHQ "figuring it out".  Would you be willing to explain?

The Cadet Programs Directorate at NHQ (i.e. Curt LeFond and Co.), simply needs to decide that the current NRA program is acceptable
and update 39-3, 52-16, and or issue an ICL.

Doing that, however, won't make a bunch of NRA instructors and Military ranges available.

I have that resource in my backyard and we are not able to avail ourselves of it because of their regs and processes.

[lordmonar]

On the other hand.....here in Las Vegas it is simple.  The NRA alrady has the youth shooting program.  We just shot a letter to the wing commander....he okayed it....and we pay the $5 to the NRA to cover us at their range.

If you wanted to do something just for your squadron....again...a little bit of work and a few letter and okays...and it can be done.
Getting military shooting time with the USAF is a lot harder...because they just don't have the ammo.

[cap235629]

Interestingly enough our squadron started 10 meter air rifle training last night. It took a ton of work to get the necessary approvals (almost 2 years in the making) the looks on the faces of the cadets made the hassle worth it. The key is to get the Wing Commander on board. The regs allow for it but it ain't easy!

[Dad2-4]

 :clap: Capt. Hobbs!!
How many qualified firearms instructors do we have here? ("...military personnel qualified as range officers or range safety officers; local law enforcement officers qualified as firearms instructors; or National Rifle Association, National Skeet Shooting Association, or Amateur Trap Shooting Association firearms instructors." from CAPR 52-16, 2-11

[Al Sayre]

I was NRA Pistol, Rifle, and Shotgun qualified for several years, gave it up due to liability concerns...