Regulations to get "maksman", "sharpshooter", ect.?

[lordmonar]

When I was on AD.....when I shot expert...they have me my qualification card (AFF 155 IIRC) I took it down to the CBPO (now called the MPF) and they updated my records......the awarding authority was the qualifciation card.

Sorry - the awarding authority was the governing AF regulation (check the name of the person who signed the regulation to get really specific).  CBPO used your qualification card to certify you meet the criteria established by the awarding authority to justify adding the ribbon to your record.   

Yes you are correct......but my point is/was it was not my commander......it was the chief of staff of the Air Force.

[PHall]

You were a training NCO....so was I.
I certainly did not CC my commander when I scheduled up someone for the range.  The CATMS guys gave me my slots.  I filled them with my guys and made sure they went.
Afterwards the 522 went into the individual's deployment folder.
No commander involvement.

P.S.

Not everyone has a gun card.   Most units do not have their own assigned weapons.

No, but you do need a gun card, aka AF Form 523, to draw a weapon from the armory. The card tells the armorer that you are qualified to draw the weapon.
No card, no gun. It's as simple as that.

[Hawk200]

No, but you do need a gun card, aka AF Form 523, to draw a weapon from the armory. The card tells the armorer that you are qualified to draw the weapon.
No card, no gun. It's as simple as that.

I never had one while AD Air Force. May be required now, but it wasn't back in the nineties or late eighties. Don't even know what one looks like.

[lordmonar]

You were a training NCO....so was I.
I certainly did not CC my commander when I scheduled up someone for the range.  The CATMS guys gave me my slots.  I filled them with my guys and made sure they went.
Afterwards the 522 went into the individual's deployment folder.
No commander involvement.

P.S.

Not everyone has a gun card.   Most units do not have their own assigned weapons.

No, but you do need a gun card, aka AF Form 523, to draw a weapon from the armory. The card tells the armorer that you are qualified to draw the weapon.
No card, no gun. It's as simple as that.

Yep....that's what I said.....the rules may have changed...but BITD....if you had to qualify for say PCSing, you just went got scheduled to the CATMS range and drew one of their weapons....no 523.  When I was the training NCO for the 1st combat Comm, we all had our own assigned weapon in our own armory.....we got our 523 (we called it a butt card) and too it to the armory drew our weapon and gave it to the transporting NCO who boxed it and too it to the range for us.  Everywhere else, when we were arming group C (IIRC) no assigned weapon, no normal duties requiring our own weapon, so no 523.

Either way.  When I scheduled up a troop for weapons training.....my commander did not know about it....unless he communicated to me that we had to bumb someone due to a short notice tasking....used to happen a lot in the 1st Combat Comm.

Maybe you flyer types do things different, maybe the way things are done have changed in the last 10 years or so.  But my bottom line is and aways has been........if the AFI said that CAP personnel could do the AFQC...and they shot expert....then they could be awarded the AF Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon.

CAP Regulations allow for all ribbons awarded by competant military authority to be worn on the uniform.....ergo....it is possible for someone prior to current AFI to have earned the ribbon.

[PHall]

You were a training NCO....so was I.
I certainly did not CC my commander when I scheduled up someone for the range.  The CATMS guys gave me my slots.  I filled them with my guys and made sure they went.
Afterwards the 522 went into the individual's deployment folder.
No commander involvement.

P.S.

Not everyone has a gun card.   Most units do not have their own assigned weapons.

No, but you do need a gun card, aka AF Form 523, to draw a weapon from the armory. The card tells the armorer that you are qualified to draw the weapon.
No card, no gun. It's as simple as that.

Yep....that's what I said.....the rules may have changed...but BITD....if you had to qualify for say PCSing, you just went got scheduled to the CATMS range and drew one of their weapons....no 523.  When I was the training NCO for the 1st combat Comm, we all had our own assigned weapon in our own armory.....we got our 523 (we called it a butt card) and too it to the armory drew our weapon and gave it to the transporting NCO who boxed it and too it to the range for us.  Everywhere else, when we were arming group C (IIRC) no assigned weapon, no normal duties requiring our own weapon, so no 523.

Either way.  When I scheduled up a troop for weapons training.....my commander did not know about it....unless he communicated to me that we had to bumb someone due to a short notice tasking....used to happen a lot in the 1st Combat Comm.

Maybe you flyer types do things different, maybe the way things are done have changed in the last 10 years or so.  But my bottom line is and aways has been........if the AFI said that CAP personnel could do the AFQC...and they shot expert....then they could be awarded the AF Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon.

CAP Regulations allow for all ribbons awarded by competant military authority to be worn on the uniform.....ergo....it is possible for someone prior to current AFI to have earned the ribbon.

We had a Training Currency Report and it was divided into sections. Flying events and Ground events.
Ground events covered stuff like weapons qual, shots, SABC, Chem Warfare and all of the other crap you have to do if you're Worldwide Deployable.
And I know for a fact that everybody else, flyer or ground pounder, had a Training Currency report too. And if you went non-current for something your Commander found out about because they would get a report from Wing Training telling them who was non-current and why.
If they had too many of their troops who were non-current they usually got to tell the Wing Commander during the "Stand Up" why they couldn't keep their troops current.
Not exactly the way to keep your job.

[Dad2-4]

I was NRA Pistol, Rifle, and Shotgun qualified for several years, gave it up due to liability concerns...

So, back on topic of cadets wearing a marksmanship badge....
Can you elaborate on "liability concerns"? I'm truly interested in what you came up against, and in which state since laws vary.

[shlebz]

As of today, you can no longer earn this badge in the Civil Air Patrol.

The only badge we had was the NRA-Sponsored training activity which was changed and is no longer addressed in our regulations.

actually i emailed HQ about that medal and they responded saying that cadets ARE allowed to wear the winchester/nra marksmanship medal on their blues uniform.

and i have recently earned distinguished expert through this program. it took me 5 days (we have a 100 yrd range on our property and i shot basically non stop from 9am-1130am & 1pm-7pm plus went through over 600 .22 rounds) just for distinguished expert alone i had to recieve  a score of 191/200 10 times...and thats not incluiding all of the other ratings i had to recieve before being elligble to attempt the distinguished rating.

[Spaceman3750]

As of today, you can no longer earn this badge in the Civil Air Patrol.

The only badge we had was the NRA-Sponsored training activity which was changed and is no longer addressed in our regulations.

actually i emailed HQ about that medal and they responded saying that cadets ARE allowed to wear the winchester/nra marksmanship medal on their blues uniform.

You're right, they are if they earned it prior to the NRA programs changing. As it stands right now there is no way to earn the award, just continue to wear it if you have earned it previously.

[shlebz]

As of today, you can no longer earn this badge in the Civil Air Patrol.

The only badge we had was the NRA-Sponsored training activity which was changed and is no longer addressed in our regulations.

actually i emailed HQ about that medal and they responded saying that cadets ARE allowed to wear the winchester/nra marksmanship medal on their blues uniform.

You're right, they are if they earned it prior to the NRA programs changing. As it stands right now there is no way to earn the award, just continue to wear it if you have earned it previously.

i told her i just recieved the rating and she said i was still allowed to wear the medal on my uniform..

[cap235629]

As of today, you can no longer earn this badge in the Civil Air Patrol.

The only badge we had was the NRA-Sponsored training activity which was changed and is no longer addressed in our regulations.

actually i emailed HQ about that medal and they responded saying that cadets ARE allowed to wear the winchester/nra marksmanship medal on their blues uniform.

and i have recently earned distinguished expert through this program. it took me 5 days (we have a 100 yrd range on our property and i shot basically non stop from 9am-1130am & 1pm-7pm plus went through over 600 .22 rounds) just for distinguished expert alone i had to recieve  a score of 191/200 10 times...and thats not incluiding all of the other ratings i had to recieve before being elligble to attempt the distinguished rating.

Could you please send me a copy of this email ? I would like to send it up the chain to get the reg changed and this will go a LONG way.

[shlebz]

As of today, you can no longer earn this badge in the Civil Air Patrol.

The only badge we had was the NRA-Sponsored training activity which was changed and is no longer addressed in our regulations.

actually i emailed HQ about that medal and they responded saying that cadets ARE allowed to wear the winchester/nra marksmanship medal on their blues uniform.

and i have recently earned distinguished expert through this program. it took me 5 days (we have a 100 yrd range on our property and i shot basically non stop from 9am-1130am & 1pm-7pm plus went through over 600 .22 rounds) just for distinguished expert alone i had to recieve  a score of 191/200 10 times...and thats not incluiding all of the other ratings i had to recieve before being elligble to attempt the distinguished rating.

Could you please send me a copy of this email ? I would like to send it up the chain to get the reg changed and this will go a LONG way.

i would be happy too just PM me your email and i will forward it to you...

[cap235629]

The only badge we had was the NRA-Sponsored training activity which was changed and is no longer addressed in our regulations.
As of today, you can no longer earn this badge in the Civil Air Patrol.

actually i emailed HQ about that medal and they responded saying that cadets ARE allowed to wear the winchester/nra marksmanship medal on their blues uniform.

You're right, they are if they earned it prior to the NRA programs changing. As it stands right now there is no way to earn the award, just continue to wear it if you have earned it previously.

The actual medal awarded has not changed.  The course of fire has and the certificate now bears the "Winchester" label. 

[JC004]

Could you please send me a copy of this email ? I would like to send it up the chain to get the reg changed and this will go a LONG way.

This would be an excellent way to get this issue resolved.  Just get an ICL issued stating that the replacement program applies and done.  It is clearly National's (and the Air Force's) intent to allow cadets to wear a badge for the NRA marksmanship program.  It is likely that there were no NRA instructors or similar people on the NB or in the AF approval chain who noticed the wording since they do not include previous cadet awards for which nobody would be young enough in the cadet information (no COP, etc.).

[biomed441]

The actual medal awarded has not changed.  The course of fire has and the certificate now bears the "Winchester" label.

The course of fire has SIGNIFICANTLY changed. Yes, the physical medal has not changed, however the new Winchester Marksman program covers more than just 1 course of fire.  Just within rifles you have Silhouette qualification, 4-position rifle, light rifle, American Rifleman, High Power Rifle (aggrigate course [Service rifles], and sport course [Modified rifles]).  In total there are 15 courses of fire between rifle, pistol, and shotgun (not including the sub-categories within each). They all have very different requirements for the medals, but they all utilize the exact same medal.  Not going to say this is or isn't a problem as its up to interpretation.  I can see some issue come up though.  Something CAP will need to address if a change to regulation is made.  And as mentioned before about National saying its Ok to wear the medal... which course of fire is it ok to wear the medal for?

Don't take me the wrong way, I'm a rifle enthusiast, NRA Certified Instructor, and support the idea of cadets being recognized for their marksmanship talents, though with the current marksman program, I just see a lot off issues that could arise if we continue to authorize the current badge.  CAP really needs its own marksmanship program.

[Hawk200]

CAP really needs its own marksmanship program.

First, I don't see that happening.

Second, it's a lot easier to have someone else handle the liability. NRA has far better insurance than CAP does.

There really is no need to have our own program. But, what programs would be recognized needs to be spelled out. Military issued CMP badges are legal(at least the ones that say "U.S. Air Force" on them), no reason NRA or non-military CMP badges shouldn't be. You don't have to do anything special with regs other than add a line saying the badges are authorized when awarded, and a couple of pics or illustrations as to what the badges are. Far easier than trying to build your own program from scratch.

CAP has enough on it's plate as it is. It's easier to farm out things when you can. Lot cheaper, too. And it avoids other issues as well.

[Ned]

This would be an excellent way to get this issue resolved.  Just get an ICL issued stating that the replacement program applies and done. 

We ("NHQ") know the regulation is outdated and that the NRA has updated their programs.

As I have mentioned several times on CAPTalk, what we need is for some knowledgeable person to actually prepare a draft of what it should say, and send it along.  We'd be happy to do an ICL, but we need some help here.

There are a lot of serious experts here, so feel free to cooperatively prepare a draft in its own thread and we will see it and pick it up.



Ned Lee
NHQ CP Type Person

[shlebz]

This would be an excellent way to get this issue resolved.  Just get an ICL issued stating that the replacement program applies and done. 

We ("NHQ") know the regulation is outdated and that the NRA has updated their programs.

As I have mentioned several times on CAPTalk, what we need is for some knowledgeable person to actually prepare a draft of what it should say, and send it along.  We'd be happy to do an ICL, but we need some help here.

There are a lot of serious experts here, so feel free to cooperatively prepare a draft in its own thread and we will see it and pick it up.



Ned Lee
NHQ CP Type Person

i would be more than happy to help if you let me know what it needs to consist of, form it needs to be in, and any other important information.

[Eclipse]

As I have mentioned several times on CAPTalk, what we need is for some knowledgeable person to actually prepare a draft of what it should say, and send it along.  We'd be happy to do an ICL, but we need some help here.

With due respect, why is that?

How many times do we need to say "this is broken"?  Why aren't the SME and curriculum people at NHQ charged with fixing things
self-initiated?  Or at least asking for assistance officially?

There's probably 50 people who could knock this out in a week.

There are a lot of serious experts here, so feel free to cooperatively prepare a draft in its own thread and we will see it and pick it up.

CT is a lot of things, but a working committee is not one of them, especially when you consider all the times we've offered assistance and opinion before only to be ignored.

[a2capt]

Thanks, Ned.

Just the kind of direct answer we needed.

Our unit has held two NRA events in the last year, with the most recent one the same weekend as NCC, that our paperwork finally came back about 10 days prior.

We still pulled it together and had just over 50 participants at an excellent facility out in the country side. Ironically, just three from our unit. To be fair, a great many were either on vacation or participating in NCC, or other CAP activities that same weekend. I can't wait for them to say yet again that "you people don't participate, you do your own thing".. but thats another thread..

[PHall]

CT is a lot of things, but a working committee is not one of them, especially when you consider all the times we've offered assistance and opinion before only to be ignored.

So the one time where our opinions and assistance is requested you poo poo it?