Regulations to get "maksman", "sharpshooter", ect.?

[JC004]

I was NRA Pistol, Rifle, and Shotgun qualified for several years, gave it up due to liability concerns...

?!

[Skydude61]

Hey, all I want to say is that I have been doing a program that qualifies us for these badges, and nobody has yet confronted me on the wear of these on the blues uniform

[Hawk200]

Hey, all I want to say is that I have been doing a program that qualifies us for these badges, and nobody has yet confronted me on the wear of these on the blues uniform

Yet.

[NC Hokie]

Hey, all I want to say is that I have been doing a program that qualifies us for these badges, and nobody has yet confronted me on the wear of these on the blues uniform

Consider yourself confronted, and keep in mind the core values as you think about what your response should be.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I'm wondering if this was the same NRA course that existed back in the '70s when I was in the BSA: Pro-Marksman, Marksman, Sharpshooter, etc.  I got Pro-Marksman without even trying.

This is out in left field, but I know of at least one CAP officer (whom I have not seen for years) wearing the Air Force Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon.  He was never in the USAF, ANG or AFRES, and when I asked him about it he said he qualified as a CAP member while a "guest" on an ANG installation and the Base Commander approved it.  The guy was a Lieutenant Colonel and I wasn't, so I didn't press it, but this seems odd to me.

It was the only military ribbon he had, since he had never been in the RM...all his other blingage was CAP.

[kmbarnes1]

According to AFI36-2226 (from 2003- now outdated...thanks MIKE for orignal post)

2.3. Handgun Orientation Training. Handgun orientation training may be conducted for United States Air Force Academy (USAFA) Cadets, Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) officer accessions, and possibly Civil Air Patrol (CAP) personnel. This training consists of classroom instruction in general firearms safety, basic operation, and marksmanship fundamentals. After completion of classroom training, students participate in a live-fire session by completing phase II (evaluation) of the handgun Air Force Qualification Course (AFQC). Trainees earn the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon (SAEMR) if they achieve an expert score. This program does not qualify an individual for armed duty. If qualification is required, personnel must meet the full objectives and requirements in AFMAN 36-2227 for the handgun AFQC training program.

See this topic for when they removed it: (in the 2009 update of AFI36-2226)
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=7483.msg137489#msg137489


Maybe this is how he earned it and could wear it?

[Eclipse]

I'm wondering if this was the same NRA course that existed back in the '70s when I was in the BSA: Pro-Marksman, Marksman, Sharpshooter, etc.  I got Pro-Marksman without even trying.

This is out in left field, but I know of at least one CAP officer (whom I have not seen for years) wearing the Air Force Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon.  He was never in the USAF, ANG or AFRES, and when I asked him about it he said he qualified as a CAP member while a "guest" on an ANG installation and the Base Commander approved it.  The guy was a Lieutenant Colonel and I wasn't, so I didn't press it, but this seems odd to me.

Easy-peasy.  He can't "qualify as a CAP member", since there is no authorization for CAP senior members to participate in firearms training.
The authorization is for cadets only.  A lot of members gloss right over that fact.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Well, somehow, by hook or by crook, he had one.

[PHall]

I'm wondering if this was the same NRA course that existed back in the '70s when I was in the BSA: Pro-Marksman, Marksman, Sharpshooter, etc.  I got Pro-Marksman without even trying.

This is out in left field, but I know of at least one CAP officer (whom I have not seen for years) wearing the Air Force Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon.  He was never in the USAF, ANG or AFRES, and when I asked him about it he said he qualified as a CAP member while a "guest" on an ANG installation and the Base Commander approved it.  The guy was a Lieutenant Colonel and I wasn't, so I didn't press it, but this seems odd to me.

Easy-peasy.  He can't "qualify as a CAP member", since there is no authorization for CAP senior members to participate in firearms training.
The authorization is for cadets only.  A lot of members gloss right over that fact.

It's even easier then that Bob. The 39-1 says we can wear military decorations when awarded by competent military authority.
I don't know about you, but I've never seen a personnel order issued by a military unit that has CAP personnel listed on it.
They only issue orders for their own people.

[Eclipse]

They only issue orders for their own people.

Good point.

[lordmonar]

They only issue orders for their own people.

Good point.

When I was on AD.....when I shot expert...they have me my qualification card (AFF 155 IIRC) I took it down to the CBPO (now called the MPF) and they updated my records......the awarding authority was the qualifciation card.

So......back in the day when that regulation was in force.....CAP personnel could get the marksman ribbon.  Now...I don't think that program exists any more....so it is a moot point.

[Eclipse]

They only issue orders for their own people.

Good point.

When I was on AD....

Kind of not remotely the same thing...

[lordmonar]

They only issue orders for their own people.

Good point.

When I was on AD....

Kind of not remotely the same thing...

My point was that if you are looking for a "personnel order" for award of the marksmanship ribbon.....you won't find it...because they don't cut said orders.....for anyone....including AD personnel.

So....back in the day.....when maybe this unnamed senior member was allowed to take the AFQC for score and shot expert....they gave him his gard with "expert" on it.....just like all of mine......and he put said cad into his CAP personnel records......just like I did with my card into my UPRG (that is the USAF version of a personnel record).....went out and bought a ribbon.....just like I did.

All Kosher.

You say this unnamed senior member could never earn the award because it is not authorised....but at one time it was.
PHall posed that he could not earn it because CAP members are not mentioned on USAF Personnel Orders.....I just pointed out....neither are USAF member (in the case of the expert ribbon).

Now.....I will grant you....that it may be a case that someone (both CAP and USAF) don't know their instructions and regulations.  It maybe that this SM shot at an AF range during an encampment or some other CAP activity and shot the highest score and the USAF range guy gave out the ribbon as a booby prize  (this happend when I took my cadets to a Navy run range in Japan).  The SM may....have rationalised that....well....the range officer is "a competant military authority" so I get to wear it.

That would be wrong......but lacking any other evidence.....it could go both ways. 

IMHO is you can talk the USAF into letting you take the AFQC and score an expert rateing....then IMHO you should be able to wear the ribbon.  YMMV.

[Eclipse]

IMHO is you can talk the USAF into letting you take the AFQC and score an expert rateing....then IMHO you should be able to wear the ribbon.  YMMV.

Given the right circumstance you can talk people into a lot of things, that doesn't mean one misinformed range master changes the rules on the wear of a badge.

In this case, were this person in my AOR, I would ask to see the substantiation, barring that, it comes off.  If they weren't, I would whisper in the
ear of the person responsible.

Like anything else, substantiate or remove.  No substantiation, leave it in your shadowbox.  And yes, if someone actually quoted something like the above circumstance, then I would accept a notarized statement from them for their file.  But my guess is that this is someone who accidently shot
a good grouping one time at a CAP activity, and thinks he can wear it.  We get this every year at encampment, and we point out that the
navy badge (in our case) requires multiple times at the range, with various weapons, air charged, and some live fire.   Not one session
with an uncharged M16.


Easy peasy.

[lordmonar]

You see that is where you and I differ.

If I see someone with something different.....I may ask them how they got it....."hey what's that for"......but I am certainly not going to challenged everyone to proove to me that they earned it.

A.  If I am not in his/her chain of command....who the heck am I to appoint myself the ribbon tzar?
B.  It's not that big of a deal.  SM Joe Slob thinks he earned it 10 years ago...because that's what someone told him....I am not going make an ass of myself and try to force the issue.

I generally trust people.  I see someone with command pilot wings on....I don't demand to see their log book.  If I see someone with the ES patch on I don't demand to see their 101 card.

If you want to be that guy....well good on you.

[PHall]

Pat, I gotta throw the BS flag on this one.
There is no way any CAP Squadron Commander is going to sign off on awarding you an Air Force Ribbon just because you walk in and drop a completed AF Form 522 (no such animal as a 155) on his desk.
The 522 just says that the range personnel saw you shoot a score good enough to qualify you for award of the ribbon. They don't have the authority to award it.
And neither does anybody in Civil Air Patrol...

[lordmonar]

Pat, I gotta throw the BS flag on this one.
There is no way any CAP Squadron Commander is going to sign off on awarding you an Air Force Ribbon just because you walk in and drop a completed AF Form 522 (no such animal as a 155) on his desk.
The 522 just says that the range personnel saw you shoot a score good enough to qualify you for award of the ribbon. They don't have the authority to award it.
And neither does anybody in Civil Air Patrol...

You are splitting hairs....and you know it.  My AF commander never saw my 522....never signed any sort of paper work for me....never even knew that I was at the range that day.  I shot, the CATMS guys signed by 522 and I was took it to Awards and Decs and they updated me in the system, and put a copy of the 522 in my UPRG.

The "award authority" was the regulation....not my commander.  I shot expert as certified by the range guys and I go the ribbon.
Same thing with my longevity ribbon, overseas tour ribbons, NDSM, AFSM, KSM, HSM, etc, et al.  There is no discretion at the command level to authorise or not authorise the medal.  You meet the criteria and you get the medal.....all you have to do is show proof to the personnelists at MPF to get it updated in your records.

Again....this is all moot as the AFI no longer allows CAP personnel to take the AFQC.....but at one time it did....and I surmise that the unnamed SM shot expert back when this was allowed.

[PHall]

Pat, I gotta throw the BS flag on this one.
There is no way any CAP Squadron Commander is going to sign off on awarding you an Air Force Ribbon just because you walk in and drop a completed AF Form 522 (no such animal as a 155) on his desk.
The 522 just says that the range personnel saw you shoot a score good enough to qualify you for award of the ribbon. They don't have the authority to award it.
And neither does anybody in Civil Air Patrol...

You are splitting hairs....and you know it.  My AF commander never saw my 522....never signed any sort of paper work for me....never even knew that I was at the range that day.  I shot, the CATMS guys signed by 522 and I was took it to Awards and Decs and they updated me in the system, and put a copy of the 522 in my UPRG.

Your commander didn't know you were at the range that day???  CATM doesn't exactly do "walk in" service, you gotta be scheduled.
If for nothing else so thay can make sure they have enough ammo and targets.

But what do I know, I was just my squadron's Small Arms Qualification NCO. I scheduled everybody and did their gun card (AF Form 523) when they got back.
And my commander knew who went too becase he had to sign all those gun cards.

[lordmonar]

You were a training NCO....so was I.
I certainly did not CC my commander when I scheduled up someone for the range.  The CATMS guys gave me my slots.  I filled them with my guys and made sure they went.
Afterwards the 522 went into the individual's deployment folder.
No commander involvement.

P.S.

Not everyone has a gun card.   Most units do not have their own assigned weapons.

[Short Field]

When I was on AD.....when I shot expert...they have me my qualification card (AFF 155 IIRC) I took it down to the CBPO (now called the MPF) and they updated my records......the awarding authority was the qualifciation card.

Sorry - the awarding authority was the governing AF regulation (check the name of the person who signed the regulation to get really specific).  CBPO used your qualification card to certify you meet the criteria established by the awarding authority to justify adding the ribbon to your record.